Is Jesus God?

Participant

Hi T8, with regard to your July 16 Post (the angel of the LORD theme). This is a cut and paste from a web site but some interesting points made:

A careful examination of the various verses relating to the messenger reveals some interesting things about Him, for example:

1. He promises to multiply Hagar’s seed, and she confesses, “You are a God who sees” (Gen.16:10,13).

2. The messenger called unto Abraham, saying, “By myself I have sworn, declares the LORD” (Gen. 22:15,16).

3. He said to Jacob, “I am the God of Bethel” (Gen. 31:11,13).

4. It was this messenger who wrestled with Jacob (cf. “angel” Hos. 12:4) at Peniel, and yet the text identifies this person as God (Gen. 32:28-30; Hos. 12:3-5).

5. This messenger spoke to Moses from the burning bush, referring to himself as God (Ex. 3:2ff).

6. The messenger attributed to himself the divine oath (Jdg. 2:1-3).

7. This “captan of the Host of the LORD” accepted worship, and spoke as God (Josh. 5:13-6:2; cf. Jdg. 6:19-27).

As we have already established, ordinary angels refuse worship (Rev. 22:8,9) so we can discount this possibility. A number of Old Testament worthies called this person “God,” and the designation was never repudiated (cf. Gen. 16:7ff; 22:11,14; 48:15ff; Jdg. 13:21,22; Zech. 3:1ff).

There is, therefore, a vast amount of evidence leading to the conclusion that the “messenger of Jehovah” was a divine being.

In spite of the fact that the holy messenger is endowed with the traits of deity, he is also distinguished from “Jehovah.” Repeatedly, he is designated as the “messenger of Jehovah,” i.e., he is Jehovah himself, and he is acting on behalf of another who is also Jehovah.

In Exodus 23:20ff, Jehovah promised the children of Israel that he would “send an angel” before them as they sojourned in the wilderness of Sinai. This messenger would keep them, and bring them finally to Canaan. The Hebrews were warned to listen to his voice and not provoke him; otherwise, he would not forgive their transgressions. Jehovah said: “for my name is in him” (21) – which suggests the messenger is a supernatural being (cf. Cole, 181). Yet note the distinction between “my” and “him.”

Is the designation “Jehovah” applied to more than one divine person? The answer is yes.

We are not surprised, therefore, to see references to more than one person who is designated as “Jehovah” – sometimes in the same passage. Isaiah declared: “Thus saith Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts . . .” (44:6).

The Messenger of Jehovah: The Pre-incarnate Christ
A very strong case can be made for the fact that the “messenger of Jehovah” who operated in the interests of the Hebrew people in the Old Testament was none other than the Lord Jesus Christ himself. Consider this argument:

As the Old Testament narrative draws to a close, the last prophet speaks of the coming ministry of John the Baptizer (Mal. 3:1; cf. Mt. 11:10). Concerning John, Jehovah says, “he shall prepare the way before me; and the Lord, whom ye seek, will suddenly come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant, whom ye desire, behold, he cometh . . . .”

Note that expression “messenger of the covenant.” The ancient Jews held this passage to be a reference to the coming Messiah (Henderson, 457). The New Testament, of course, makes that point quite clear.

And so, conservative Bible scholars are fairly well agreed that the “angel of Jehovah,” or “the messenger of the covenant,” so prominent in the Hebrew Scriptures, was the Lord Jesus in his pre-incarnate state.

To this may be added the inspired testimony of Paul, who affirmed the actual presence of Christ as a sustaining companion of Israel in the wilderness of Sinai (1 Cor. 10:4).

July 19, 2004 at 9:27 am#18845

Proclaimer

Participant

Yes Christ Jesus is the Messenger of Jehovah/Yahweh/YHWH. But YHWH is in identity the only God, but in nature there are many gods. Jesus has divine nature, but he is not the Divine in identity. We will also ultimately be partakers of divine nature and that is why Christ will call us brothers. But God himself will never be our brother, but our Father.

So yes Jesus is a divine being, but his divinity comes from God. Everything he has including life and everything he says and does comes from God. He perfectly reflects the invisible God to us, so we can know God through Christ. We cannot come to God without Christ. Such a notion is worse than an ant trying to talk to the president of the USA.

Yes the Invisible Father speaks and often times he speaks through a representitive. On the Mt of Transfiguration God spoke, but no one saw God. But the 3 men (Jesus, Moses and Elijah) reflected God in heavenly glory. God then said that Jesus is his beloved Son. He didn't say that Jesus was God, but that he was his son.

This is the true gospel, that God sent his son into the world. God never became an angel, nor did he become a man, and neither did God die, these things are impossible. But the son has appeared on behalf of God throughout the OT and even the Book of Revelation. In that book we find that the revelation was given by God to Christ but then to his angel.

So God appeared and communicated with John and ultimately us, but he didn't appear visibly himself, but sent a visible representitive. God directly connects to us by his Spirit, but in person it is always through Christ.

Jesus is our head and God is Jesus head. To us our shepherd is Jesus , but our shepherd is leading us to his God so that he can be our God.

We may find that the OT doesn't make such distinctions obvious, but the NT does. The reason is simple. Today we live in a greater revelation and therefore we have less excuses than they had back then.

We are truly blessed to live in these days, but with such revelation comes responsibility.

July 19, 2004 at 9:33 am#18844

Participant

Quote (t8 @ July 19 2004,04:27)

We are truly blessed to live in these days, but with such revelation comes responsibility.

I agree with this sentiment

July 19, 2004 at 6:16 pm#18846

Participant

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Hi Nick,
Yes many are seeking sighns, and they find them alot in the form of an angel, I have a friend who has been told lies by an angel, claiming to be GoD. Because they'd rather obey something they can see, a spirit that audiobly speaks to them, rather than what the holy spirit is saying to us.
Sighns are good, But we must discern them. Test them.

Now onto your seccond point. Jesus said that he will no longer be with us, But that the holy spirit will be sent to teach what Jesus taught, and more.
So for your idea of 2 witnesses.

As for the seccond part of the two witnesses. In revelation. That is an entirly different matter. These are men, it lists theyre acts.

Rev 11

8Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. 9For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial.

As you see, the prophets are actual men, who have a Jesus as they're Lord.

There is plently more about what these men do If you want to read the txt.

laterz. Grow in christ, A glorious army is rising ^-^

eeek, if only i really held on to these principles in everything.

****************************

t8, I believe the distinction is made perfect in the old testiment. The lord said to my lord, sit at my right hand till i make your enemies a foorstool for your feet.

and moses saying, GoD will send a prophet just like me from amoung your own people, do everything he says or be cut off from your people.

It says in the New testiment that These were talking about Jesus. So yeah.

July 19, 2004 at 7:58 pm#18847

Participant

Thanx R,
I think we have to look a bit deeper man.

The two men are called olive trees and Lampstands.They give peace and light from God.They give testimony and have power that is superhuman and the power comes out of their mouths.

The city is not a physical place but a symbol of the world. We know from Daniel that the Time of Tribulation at the end of the world is 7 years in length and divide into 2 halves. Now the witnesses preach for 1260 days which is 3 and 1/2 years. Jesus said the gospel must be preached to the whole world before He comes.

Then they lie on the streets dead for 3 and 1/2 days symbolising the same number of years. As Jesus says “will ther be faith on Earth when He returns?”

Then there is the resurrection and they are taken to heaven.

July 20, 2004 at 1:35 am#18848

Participant

Nick

Yes there are some seemingly simillar symbolisms, look a lil closer, and you will see that they are entirely different from Jesus and the holy spirit. We are told that Jesus is not going to form a reinactment of his death, for we are told, “Once and for all” Meaning, There is no more sacrifice offering to hand GoD, so what would be the point of Jesus being killed again?? Plus revelation is clear when it tells us when Jesus returns, and who Jesus is. It says later that satan will be locked up and Jesus will rule the earth for a thousand years. Please read the whole revelation. I have more points.

Ill explain.

Revelation 11:2-14

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2But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.

(notice how they are talking about a period of time that a piece of land will be handed over)

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3And I will give power to my two witnesses,

(two witnesses have been given power, But who are they???)

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and they will prophesy for 1,260 days,

(they will prophecy for a period of days, who are these prophets)

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clothed in sackcloth.” 4These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies.

(this line shows that they are physical men who are being protected by special giftings from GoD)

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This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.
7Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.

(the fact is they are killed, Jesus is not killed and reserected another time!!!!! nore is there a prophecy that the holy spirit will be incarnate)

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8Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

(theyre Lord was cruicified, this for one excludes Jesus, for Jesus is not Lord over himself.)

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9For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial.

(Jesus was in the belly of the earth, he was not on the earth, He wasnt in the belly of the earth for three and a half days, but only 3 days. and again, there is no prophecy of another death of Jesus)

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10The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.
11But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.
13At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

(people are directly killed in an earthquake, this is literal)
14The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.

Here are my points

(notice how they are talking about a period of time that a piece of land will be handed over)

(two witnesses have been given power, But who are they???)

(they will prophecy for a period of days, who are these prophets)

(this line shows that they are physical men who are being protected by special giftings from GoD)

(the fact is they are killed, Jesus is not killed and reserected another time!!!!! nore is there a prophecy that the holy spirit will be incarnate)

(theyre Lord was cruicified, this for one excludes Jesus, for Jesus is not Lord over himself.)

(people are directly killed in an earthquake, this is literal)

July 20, 2004 at 2:27 am#18849

Participant

Hi R.
The outer court of the temple was not a place of worship like the Holy Of Holies and the inner court but more for social and business use selling doves etc as I understand it. So this reference is likely to symbolise those who are religious but not christian and they are excluded and suffer the fate of the totally worldly. The 42 months of course is 3 1\2 years again.

Jesus will not die again but those in the Body of Christ on earth may do and their witness is with the Bible and the power of the Holy Spirit till they are resurrected\raptured and taken up.

I am trying to work these things out so any input is valuable.

July 20, 2004 at 3:58 am#18850

Participant

Hi NH,
It is almost universally accepted that the 2 witnesses are real people. They exhibit attributes of real people (wear sack cloth etc) with a few key 'supernatural' differences. There is a lot of conjecture over the identity of the two men though. Most accept that one is Elijah while there is a lot of debate over the second one being Moses or Enoch. Both Elijah and Enoch were translated and concievably still have their non-resurrection bodies. The Jews are expecting Elijah to return again and actually set him a place for him at their table for the passover feast. Moses died of natural causes and interestingly God buried him (Deut 34:6). Micheal the archangel and Satan battled over his body (Jude 1:9). Seems a strange thing to do, unless it has some significance.
Both Elijah and Moses were present with Jesus during the transfiguration (Matt 17) and each had command over either fire or water during their earthly lives. I tend to favour the view that these men are the two witnesses for these and some other reasons.

July 20, 2004 at 4:17 am#18851

Participant

Hi Is ,
Here is another thought. Early on in the Bible God called on the Sun and the Moon to be His witnesses. They stand before the LORD OF THE EARTH.
These bodies could certainly have mighty impact on our Earth, Heat, ocean changes, earthquakes and lack of rain . Certainly sackcloth moons and darkened Sun is part of endtimes. Such things are prophesised to happen-it pays to reread Is 24-26. ??

July 20, 2004 at 4:40 am#18852

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 19 2004,23:17)

Yes, there are some consistencies there but if you substitute these idioms into the text – it no longer makes any sense. You are right to source the OT to interpret Revelation though. There are 404 verses in this book and over 800 allusions to the OT.

July 20, 2004 at 5:06 am#18853

Participant

9For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial.

Gaze upon theyre bodies. Any more obvious than that???

ok, look, you've got a correct principle, that is, That The holy spirit is sent to testify to people, about Jesus.

You egknowledge that Jesus will not die again, and that no-where does it say the holy spirit must die.

And when things are figuritive, in revelation, it says so, Like the clothing of the bride of Jesus, which is the new heaven, that we will all enter including Jesus and GoD. It says those clothing are the righteous acts of the saints. But there It says amoung other things, that they are men, mortal men, with a purpose.

So i dont understand why you still believe that these two prophets are Jesus and the holy spirit.

July 20, 2004 at 6:34 am#18854

Participant

the scripture is Ps 89 v37-38. This idea needs more study. Anyone else want to have a say?

July 20, 2004 at 12:01 pm#18855

Proclaimer

Participant

I have always thought these 2 to be real people, but I haven't studied their lives to the degree that I feel confident to teach about them. I offer my opinion though.

It may be interesting to note that Elijah came again just before the coming of the Messiah in the person of John the Baptist. So perhaps Elijah will come again, just as John the Baptist came to prepare the way of the Lord the first time, perhaps he will come again to prepare for the next visitation of our Lord.

Elijah as in a ministry or person I am not sure.

July 20, 2004 at 7:45 pm#18856

Participant

Ok Guys,

Lets expand the idiom. The Sun and Moon ARE lampstands of their nature and sources of energy for crops.

They have been witnesses since creation and are referred to as such in Ps 89. They stand before the Lord of the EARTH.

They are prophesised in endtimes to behave in ways that affect Earth such as earthquakes, fierce heat, ocean changes, seasonal crop changes ,shortened days, lack of light.

These changes are spoken of by Jesus as early events of the endtimes in Mt 24.

It says “Fire will come DOWN” from them.

They have the power to “Afflict THE EARTH”with all kinds of plagues.

It is easier for “all peoples” to view their changes as celestial bodies.

Their “death” may symbolise some return of more normal behavior again for 3 1/2 years till a worse change.

As predictors of the coming of Christ they prophesise.

Since Zech 4 is an endtime prophesy and also has these idioms perhaps we should look there?

Interesting?

July 24, 2004 at 2:05 am#18857

Participant

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Ok Guys,

Lets expand the idiom. The Sun and Moon ARE lampstands of their nature and sources of energy for crops.

They have been witnesses since creation and are referred to as such in Ps 89. They stand before the Lord of the EARTH.

Everyone Is a witness to GoD and the world. So what!!

There are so many witnesses.

Plus These witnesses are just considered as lampstands, like the churches, who are considered lampstands.

Plus, It never says in revelation that they are as you say “witnesses before creation” This is not in revelation.

I would turn you to the warning in the book.

Revelation 22:18
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.

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They are prophesised in endtimes to behave in ways that affect Earth such as earthquakes, fierce heat, ocean changes, seasonal crop changes ,shortened days, lack of light.

Other men had power to Do the same.

James 5:17
Elijah was a man just like us. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years.

Just as you have life, God gives these men of revelation power.

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These changes are spoken of by Jesus as early events of the endtimes in Mt 24.

It says “Fire will come DOWN” from them.

They have the power to “Afflict THE EARTH”with all kinds of plagues.

It is easier for “all peoples” to view their changes as celestial bodies.

It does not even hint at that. It says they are in the place where they're Lord was cruicified. We know that Jesus is that Lord.

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Their “death” may symbolise some return of more normal behavior again for 3 1/2 years till a worse change.

Im sure this is the reason why GoD made it 3 1/2, and not 3, so you can see its obviously not a parellel

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As predictors of the coming of Christ they prophesise.

Now Jesus is to come in the clouds, which is said later on in the revelation. What you think Jesus is going to come a few times??? Jesus warns that many will say here is the christ. Jesus warns not to believe them, Jesus is coming down in the cloads. As he himself prophecies.

I now see why he gave such a warning, If this is how people take what is said and try and turn it into “jesus is coming many times”. When these end times are not here, Then, so many will be fooled when these times come.

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Since Zech 4 is an endtime prophesy and also has these idioms perhaps we should look there?

End time is a long time, these have been the last days, from when Jesus walked the earth in human form, till now and still going.

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Interesting?

hmm. please read my points, It may save you from the plaugues of revelation.

July 25, 2004 at 6:49 am#18858

Participant

Hey Ringo,
Do you now believe in the New Testament if you interpret and quote from Revelation? Check my post and you will not see the word “before”

You and I can only be witnesses for 70-80 years or so God willing.

Yes Elijah closed the skies to rain for 3 1/2 years and in Rev 11 it happens again.

There is no longer a city called Sodom and there never was one called Egypt so this is symbolic. Jesus did not die on Earth-He died in the air nailed to the cross-perhaps above the Earth is the street?

July 25, 2004 at 9:06 am#18859

Participant

That was a typo- “Since Before creation”

“since creation” is what you said.

Seen as you are comparing them to the sun and the moon, you mean that they have been around since the beggining of creation.

And because of that misguided belief you then say that it is posible, or even factual. that these two are Jesus. and the holy spirit. Which is mindnumbingly stupid to think. Because it says that they are in the place of where THEYRE lord was cruicified. Is Jesus the lord of Himself??? i mean, c'mon

It never says that they are witnesses from the creation like the sun and moon. So stop adding in things.

Now you think they are elijah?? You think anyone who stops the rain is elijah?? Or the only one who can stop the wind is jesus?? Maybe the first person you knew could tie up theyre laces, are they the only ones who can do it??
Or breathe?? Or eat?? Only some people can eat metal, doe sthat make them GoD?? or sons of GoD?? And besides. It is no parrellel, Elijah prayed for 3 1/2 years to stop rain, and with these prophets, it doesnt show you how long they were stopping the rain for. They were dead 3 1/2 days . There is absolutly no parrellel.

Hmm, maybe your an interlectual philosopher who enjoys triing to twist biblical sayings into nonsense? possibly a university lecturer??

July 25, 2004 at 9:24 am#18860

Participant

Sorry to add more confusion to your life Ringo. No the ideas are not interconnected but alternative options and I realise the thought that they were the Holy Spirit and the Word is not feasible. The sun and moon idea interests me more.
No, not a professor.

July 25, 2004 at 9:35 am#18861