Is Jesus God?

Participant

You wrote:

“I am not sure what you are saying here, because that is exactly what I said in a previous post. i.e. learn truth, then teach it.”

What I meant was, you aren't doing that. You are actively teaching your theology in your web site articles – even though you acknowledge that you yourself are still seeking truth and learning.

It took about 10 mins to find the Zech 14:4 inconsistency, perhaps there are others?, maybe many. Given that, in your writings, you are representing not only yourself but also the Creator(s) of the universe, don't you think its imperative to get as many details as possible right BEFORE you post. And, if its a point of conjecture then maybe you should qualify your statement(s) by writing “this passage is the subject of much debate…” (or words to that effect). Fair?

I hope this clarifies my posting,
God Bless

July 11, 2004 at 1:28 am#18804

Participant

Our work is to discern truth and rebuke error. It is not to challenge people but false doctrines. Our mutual enemies are deception and deceit, not genuine searchers who are only partially right,as we are. We need to learn to be gentle with each other as we need each other.We should not behave towards one another as the world does,instead choosing language that uplifts if possible while, the sword of the Spirit cuts away the useless chains that bind up the truth and remove the mists of mystery that make the simple things confusing.

July 11, 2004 at 6:42 am#18782

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 10 2004,12:42)

What I meant was, you aren't doing that. You are actively teaching your theology in your web site articles – even though you acknowledge that you yourself are still seeking truth and learning.

Why should any teacher stop searching for truth everyday. What I teach is what I have learned and challenged and prayed about. What I am actively learning or finding out about would take on a completely different tone. I usually approach such things as what do you think, or I think this, or maybe that, etc.

But what I teach is what has been put in my heart and has been tried and tested and I give plenty of time for God to correct me in case I am wrong. Sometimes this process takes years, even a decade which is the case with the Trinity writing.

Of course as any human being should acknowledge, we are imperfect and even if we are very careful and seek God every day, we will still err on some things, but if our hearts are really seeking the truth, we will conform to truth when it is presented to us, even if it is after much careful consideration.

If we stopped learning and seeking, it would only be because we know everything there is to know. But our lives now and forever will be a journey of learning more and more about our wonderful God.

So I feel confident to keep learning and seeking and teaching.

July 11, 2004 at 6:49 am#18805

Participant

But are you not challenging me when you say this?

Also, I certainly challenge error when it is taught. But if someone believes something that is incorrect, then yes I agree that we should tread carefully and often times their mis-belief is not really that important anyway.

But with foundational stuff, and especially with those who teach, I will be tough. Even God judges teachers more harshly as teachers open doors of understanding for others to go through or lay stumbling blocks and hinder those who would enter into truth.

James 3:1
Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

Matthew 23:13
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

You said that our job is to not to challenge people, but the last scripture is certainly a challenge to the Pharisees is it not? The Pharisees were not just any ol people, they were teachers and Jesus was harsh with them because of their leaven.

July 11, 2004 at 7:24 am#18807

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 29 2004,00:06)

2. In Zech 14:3-4: The word LORD is used to describe Jesus returning to the mount of olives. ” Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as on when He fights on a day of battle. And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives” This is clearly a description of Jesus, a fact that is confirmed in Acts 1:11. This is a clear refutation of your declaration (and I quote): “It must be noted that Lord and LORD are two different words. The father is LORD and Jesus is Lord. Translators capitalise the name of God and LORD”.

OK for now I quote the following from another site: It says what I am trying to convey, namely that LORD and lord mean different things. I will post again regarding Zech 14:3-4.

The following is by a person called Jamie L. Perez, M.Ed.

“The LORD said to my lord” is clearly a reference to God speaking to one identified as “lord.” When Scriptures use capital letters for LORD or GOD, it indicates that the source texts read YHVH.

YHVH can only refer to God and no one else. By contrast, the lowercase word, “lord” (“Adoni” in Hebrew) is more generic and means, “master,” “ruler,” or “owner.” It is exclusively used for people who hold a superior rank, position, power, or authority (including representational authority).

For example, many people called Abraham Adoni: Sarah in Genesis 18:12, Abimelech (a king) in Genesis 20:4; the Hittites in Genesis 23:11, et al. Rebekah called Abraham’s servant Adoni in Genesis 24:18.

When referring to God, there is a slight, but significant, vowel change to Adonai. This term is used exclusively for God. Unfortunately, translators have confused the issue in Psalm 110:1 by capitalizing Adoni (“Lord”) when the word – according to all other usage of the word – should be lowercase.

For example, in Genesis 19:2, when Lot talks to the angels, the KJV translators use a lower case “lords.” But in 19:18, the translators capitalize the same word. The source text treats these words the same – the differences are solely a result of translator bias.

This same phenomenon occurs in Psalm 110:1. The source text doesn’t make a distinction between the typical usage of Adoni – but the translators do. The translators have chosen to capitalize “Lord,” thus prejudicing readers’ interpretation so as to conclude that it is referring to deity.

There is a very similar phrase to Psalm 110:1 found in Genesis 24:12. “And he [Abraham’s servant] said, ‘O LORD God of my lord Abraham, I pray thee, send me good speed this day, and show kindness unto my lord.’” If I wanted to insert bias into the text to show that Abraham was actually God, I could influence the readers by simply capitalizing the reference to him, as such: “O LORD God of my Lord Abraham. . . “show kindness to my Lord.”

What happened? Now, when the reader sees the capitalized reference to Abraham as “Lord,” they automatically internally process this information as Abraham being deity. Considering the number of times Abraham is called Adoni, it would be a simple matter to turn him into God. I simply have to capitalize a letter. A simple change – but a mindboggling one that will automatically insure that the reader’s perceptions will match my bias.

Take Psalm 110:1, and do the same thing. If we use correct punctuation, it appears as, “The LORD said to my lord . . .;” and we know that this is not referring to deity. Change it to, “The LORD said to my Lord. . .” and we’re reading about deity. Just as biasing the text to read Lord Abraham was unethical, biasing the text to read Lord in Psalm 110:1 is unethical. The underlying word is exactly the same – and it exclusively refers to beings other than the One True God.

“The lengthening of the ā on Adonai [the Lord God] may be traced to the concern of the Masoretes to mark the word as sacred by a small external sign” (Theological Dictionary of the OT, “Adon,” p. 63 and Theological Dictionary of the NT, III, 1060ff. n.109).

“The form ‘to my lord,’ l’adoni, is never used in the OT as a divine reference…the generally accepted fact that the masoretic pointing distinguishes divine references (adonai) from human references (adoni)” (Wigram, The Englishman’s Hebrew and Chaldee Concordance of the OT, p. 22) (Herbert Bateman, “Psalm 110:1 and the NT,” Bibliothecra Sacra, Oct.-Dec., 1992, p. 438).

“The form ADONI (‘my lord’), a royal title (I Sam. 29:8), is to be carefully distinguished from the divine title ADONAI (‘my Lord’) used of Yahweh.” “ADONAI — the special plural form [the divine title] distinguishes it from adoni [with short vowel] = my lords” (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, “Lord,” p. 157).

“Lord in the OT is used to translate ADONAI when applied to the Divine Being. The [Hebrew] word…has a suffix [with special pointing] presumably for the sake of distinction…between divine and human appellative” (Hastings Dictionary of the Bible, “Lord,” Vol. 3, p. 137).

July 11, 2004 at 8:41 am#18808

Participant

I am surprised you would feel challenged by my letter as there was no such intent. I do find it strange though that someone who gives expert spiritual advice should hide behind a cloak of anonymity. I find your answers well researched and carefully presented and your forum is potentially very useful to God. But if you are the head of a sect or your name is Cardinal Williams then that is relevant to your readers and potentially adds to your credibility would you not agree?Why hide your light under a bushel?.

July 11, 2004 at 9:03 am#18806

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 11 2004,22:41)

Hi Nick,

I really cannot fathom out where you are coming from.
I am here to teach and teach is what I do. I do this in my own time and receive no physical wages for it. I do not for 1 minute say that I am right and everyone else is wrong, I simply try to put on other peoples hearts what God has put on mine. My ambition is to work with people, not to destroy them. But I (and anyone else who teaches scripture) comes up against all types of opposition. Our enemy isn't going to roll over and admit defeat when we use the Word of God and teach scripture. No he will do all he can to deter us.

I have in other posts made no attempt to hide myself under a bushel. In fact I have been quite open to the fact that I am a person who holds to no denomination. I teach what the Spirit leads me to teach. I have even shared testimonies of things that God has done in my life. It is easy to say I am a Trinitarian or a Catholic or whatever, but judging by lables is a useless occupation. How can you judge me by meeting in this Forum. I could be anybody. You can only judge my teaching for that is all that you have that belongs to me.

Anyway, again I say that I am not perfect and I expect all who read what I teach to check it out as that is also one of my teachings.

I am rather surprised by your reaction to me. I feel that you are on a fault finding mission, even though this contradicts your teaching to not attack people but to destroy lies and deception. I hope I am wrong here and I would like to get off on a better foot with you if that is possible.

What gives?

July 11, 2004 at 9:53 am#18809

Participant

God did not just give us as individuals the bible as a map and compass to follow through the forests and marshes of life. He equips us, if we ask.with the Holy Spirit for a lamp to our understanding. As the darkness increases so are both necessary to stay on the path. ” but if a man walk in the night he stumbleth because there is no light in him” Jn 11.10. Even more we need the promise of 2 Peter 2 speaking of the Word and the Spirit. “as unto a light that shineth in a dark place until the day dawn and the Daystar arise in your hearts.”

July 11, 2004 at 10:28 am#18810

Participant

Hi Nick,

I agree with your last post, but I am still not sure what you are getting at.

Do you still have a problem with me or something I said?

July 11, 2004 at 10:47 pm#18811

Participant

Yes call me Nick as that is my name and I stand behind what I write. “By their fruit you will know them” -Anyone can write fine words but reputation,attitude and actions speak more clearly and if I am to build trust in you then perhaps I and others could know more about you. No I have nothing against you and struggle to see how you seem to feel personally attacked by my posts.Perhaps others can help out here?

July 12, 2004 at 8:10 am#18812

Participant

Hi T8, hope you had a good weekend.
Im nothing if not persistent, humour me. I will try to put the heart of the issue we have been debating into one cogent sentence – so you can hopefully see where I am coming from on all this and why your answers frustrate me a little.

“If Jesus is clearly identified as God in scripture and shares all the attributes of God, why do you consider Him less-than-God?”

I partially understand all the identity, nature rhetoric but that doesnt satisfy me at all – maybe its over my head a little. I have studied science and work in research, so verifiable evidence is what I find persuasive, not clever language and conceptualisation etc. Do you see where Im coming from?

I just think its interesting that all the great Biblical acts of God were attributed to both the Father and Son (and Holy Spirit).

The act of creation was attributed to:
Father; Job 38:4
Son; Col 1:16
Holy Spirit; Gen 1:1

The incarnation was attributed to:
Father; Heb 10:P5
Son; Phil 2:7
Holy Spirit; Luke 1:35

The death of Jesus was attributed to:
Father; Ps 22:15
Son; Jn 10:18
Holy Spirit; Heb 9:14

(I also understand that the resurrection was also ascribed to all three but havent found all the supporting scriptures yet, give me some time).

Can I ask you to read the following scriptures in sequence and tell me who they are referring to?

1. Is 41:4
2. Is 44:6
3. Is 48:12
4. Rev 1:8
5. Rev 21:6
6. Rev 2:8

Kind regards, Is 1:18

July 12, 2004 at 8:21 am#18813

Participant

Hi T8
You posting on Zech 14 does'nt address the issue at all. Clearly that Zech scripture referred to Jesus, as does Is 44:6 and Rev 19:16. I also find Genesis 18 interesting and would like your opinion on who exactly visited Abraham.
God Bless

July 12, 2004 at 8:24 pm#18814

Participant

Zech 14 .6 reads “my God” ,the same as the statement of Thomas's ” My Lord and my God”. And that is right…Jesus is God to us and the angels but The Father is His God and is the God worshipped by the Jews and christians. Jesus too deserves worship but does not seek it but directs us to worship the Father. Jesus is one with the Father but is less than Him. The Father is Spirit, the Spirit of Jesus is the Holy Spirit. These things are revealed but trinity is not but has been added by the foolish imaginations of men.

July 13, 2004 at 12:35 am#18815

Participant

Hi N.H, how are you going today?

You wrote:
1. “but The Father is His God “
-Well if thats true, explain Heb 1:8 to me then.

2. “….but does not seek it but directs us to worship the Father”
-What about Matt 21:8-9?

3. “Spirit of Jesus is the Holy Spirit”
-Where are your supporting scriptures for this statement?

July 13, 2004 at 12:52 am#18816

Participant

Hi Is.
[1] The Explanation for Heb 1.8 is Heb 1 .9 and Jn 20.17… if you disagree with these words you contradict Jesus.
[2] I said Jesus did not seek to be worshiped. He was worshiped on several occasions as He deserved and He accepted that worship -“even these stones will cry out”.
[3] Roman 8 .8-14 is the clearest as The Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Christ are used together.

July 13, 2004 at 1:33 am#18817

Participant

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July 13, 2004 at 1:34 am#18818

Participant

1. Heb 1:8-9 are the words of God the father, not Jesus. Paul was quoting Ps 45:6. Therefore I cant be contradicting Jesus with these verses.

2. In Matt 21, Jesus not only solicited worship by presenting Himself on the donkey – He orchestrated the whole thing from beginning to end. In light of this, how could you say he did not seek to be worshipped?

3. If the Holy spirit is Jesus' spirit then why does Jesus make a distinction in Matt 28:19? Also if this is the case, then what about the Spirit of God (the Father)? Num 11:29, Dt 2:30. Is He the Holy Spirit too?

July 13, 2004 at 3:29 am#18819

Participant

Hi
1.The reference to contradiction only applies to the verse in John. The Hebrews quote talks of the words of the Father about the triumphant King Jesus and says ” and God ,Thy God[ie the God of Jesus]hath anointed thee[Jesus]”

2.Jesus on the donkey was fulfilling scripture. To say he was seeking to be worshiped is against the nature of the meek and humble servant though He was King. Few would agree with you I think.

3. Frequently the Holy Spirit is spoken of in the Word as The Spirit of God. There is no contradiction in that surely?

July 13, 2004 at 4:01 am#18820

Participant

Also Dt 2.30 refers to the spirit of a man…King Sihon..and not the Holy Spirit…if you check the context
Numbers 11.29 is one of the times when the Holy Spirit is referred to as the Spirit of God… no problem unless you want to prove a trinity doctrine.
The baptism in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is proven to mean baptism in the Name of Jesus as shown by Acts examples. God is one. Jesus is one with the Father. No problem.

July 13, 2004 at 9:30 am#18821