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Jesus is the Son of God and the Son of Man. As is a preconceived, presuppositional idea of the creeds of man state, “God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten not made…etc,etc” I am not sure if they are true. In the faith to which I hold (5 points of Calvin – reformed) our founders (such as Luther) all held to the Trinity. I however am not so convinced. Luther and the reformers left Rome but took some of her with them, and I think maybe they didn't go quite far enough.
Jesus is 100% man but as the Council of Nicea and Constantinople and Chalcedon claim, is he likewise 100% God? Scripture seems to say he is not.
I have seen from previous quotes from some rude person who cussed that he merely quoted Revelation to make his point. He quoted Revelation 1:8 which says in modern translations “Lord, God” but the NWT translates it is Jehovah God to which seems closer to the correct translation.
Does that help? What I am saying is I have not concluded to which position is correct.Quote (Casey S Smith 29 @ Oct. 03 2006,21:54) Nick you confuse me. From some of your threads you seem to be saying Jesus is God and in others you seem to be arguing against it. I think we both are Socratic in our method of teaching to wich I say touche, but where do you stand. As I said before I say again, I do not know exactly where I stand on this issue. I know where I stand on all other beliefs but in regards to who Jesus was I am not sure. Having said that I now ask you, where do you?
When Jesus saw the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Father he did not see the Son of Man sitting next to some presupposed Huge White bearded guy named the Father. He was in the Glory of the Father. Again, your hermeneutics is skewed sir. You are trying to take a Jewish writing written in Greek, copied from the 1st century, translated in English, and trying to make it a post modern, American view. Saying that someone is sitting at the right hand of someone now is literal. He was not being literal but was speaking a WELL KNOWN Jewish reference. When the leaders stoning him heard this there anger would have gone off the wall as they knew he was referring to Jesus in the same breath of the Father's Glory. How they believed that to be obviously from the Gospels was that Jesus decalaring himself to be the Son of God made himself equal to God.
Hi casey,
I presume you mean Stephen, and as a man in extremis, being stoned, I believe he did not get theological but just told us what he saw.
It is true as well as having other theoretical inferences in my view.Hi Is 1.18,
You ask what was the glory of the son after his triumph on earth?
Then you largely answer your own question.“In John 5:23 we are told that all will honor the Son even as (i.e., in the exact same way) as we honor the Father, and what is worship but the highest possible form of honor?
The Father commanded the angels to worship Him:
Hebrews 1:6
And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.”and indeed Yahshua will be worshipped in Heaven:
Revelation 5:12-14
12saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.” 13And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.” 14And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen ” And the elders fell down and worshiped.The context unmistakably bears out that this worship goes well beyond mere deference (the kind of proskuneo allowed to be recieved by men). Yahshua was worshipped as deity, and we both agree that He did not BECOME divine….”
He is at the right hand of God worshiped by angels and natural men.
Quote (Casey S Smith 29 @ Oct. 03 2006,22:09) Jesus is the Son of God and the Son of Man. As is a preconceived, presuppositional idea of the creeds of man state, “God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten not made…etc,etc” I am not sure if they are true. In the faith to which I hold (5 points of Calvin – reformed) our founders (such as Luther) all held to the Trinity. I however am not so convinced. Luther and the reformers left Rome but took some of her with them, and I think maybe they didn't go quite far enough.
Jesus is 100% man but as the Council of Nicea and Constantinople and Chalcedon claim, is he likewise 100% God? Scripture seems to say he is not.
I have seen from previous quotes from some rude person who cussed that he merely quoted Revelation to make his point. He quoted Revelation 1:8 which says in modern translations “Lord, God” but the NWT translates it is Jehovah God to which seems closer to the correct translation.
Does that help? What I am saying is I have not concluded to which position is correct.
Hi casey,
God was in him reconciling the world to Himself[2Cor 5.19]Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 04 2006,08:25) Quote
How can one be emptied of DEITY?Exactly! I can't possibly fathom how this could happan….
If we look at deity and flesh as natures, then it seems possible at least that one can empty himself of a nature.E.g., if the Word became flesh, and John 1:1c says the Word was divine, then it could be possible that the Word changed one nature for another. Or took off one nature and put on another, in a similar way that we who are flesh beings will one day put on the new body (mortal putting on immortality) and partake in divine nature as it is written.
The other possibility is that he is both, which is the stance that Trinitarians take, although they are sorely confused with nature and identity. Or that he is neither, which seems rediculous, or has always been either divine, or man. The latter being what the Unitarians argue.
2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.1 Corinthians 15:53
For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.1 Corinthians 15:44
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.Hi,
Heb 2
” 5For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.6But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?
7Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.”
So God visited His people in the vessel of the Son of Man, the Captain of our salvation, the glorious being made less than the angels for a time, even though they came into being through him, so that in him men should be made rulers too in the kingdom.
God was never less than the angels nor made anything by anyone.
CASEY S. SMITH-Hello, I hope you have the King James Version. I have read the New world Translation. And we cannot add to or take from Gods word. we are warned of that in Rev. Here's just a few examples: IN the NWT it qoutes john 1 ;1 as In the bbeginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was A GOD) There should not be an A after God.It should read; and the Word was God. Col; 1:16 when speaking of Jesus , scripture says, for by Him all things were created, that are in heaven, and earth-all things were created by Him and for Him (17) he is befor all things and by Him all things consist. The NWT has added the word(other) about 4 times in these scriptures, to make it read:for by Him all (other) things were created (17) and he is before all (other) things. Almost Everywhere threw the scriptures were it says Lord God they have replaced with Jehovah God. In Genesis 17:1 It says; Where it quotes: The Lord appeared to Abram they translated to Jehovah, In Exodus 3:14 God says to Moses; I AM THAT I AM, But in John 8:58 Jesus saying; Verliy, verily I say to you, before Abraham was, I am. They left out. They quote: Befor Abraham came into exitence, I have been. Jesus being Lord is always translated to Jehovah. There is a WHOLE LOT of scriptures twisted. And 1 John 5:7 NWT says: For their are three witness bearers, and they stopped, It goes on to verse 8. When it should read: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father,The Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one! there is so many more. I hope this helps you. I am trying not to judge, but I was also told I would not be judging if I could use scripture to back it up. There is aslo a scripture that quotes; If someone is doing wrong tell them , you could save their soul. GOD BLESS YOU. And I so hope you find the truth. Let Gods true word speak to you not men. And you will see it in a whole different light.
Revelation is of Jesus Christ. His judgment. Because Jesus tells you Himself that he is the Almighty. Rev1:6 (Jesus) And hath made us Kings and priests “unto God and His Father”.(whats this mean) To Him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen
(7) Behold He cometh with clouds and every eye shall see Him, all kindreds of earth shall wail because of Him.
(8) (Jesus) I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is and which was and which is to come, THE ALMIGHTY!
Rev. 14:7 says: fear God and give glory to Him: for the hour of His judgment has come:
(Jesus is going to judge us but here it is saying God’s judgment) and worship Him that made the heaven, and earth. And the sea, and the fountains of waters.(Remember Col. 1:16 tells us by Jesus were all things created in heaven and in earth. By Him and for Him)
Rev. 15:3, And they sang a knew song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvelous are thy works, Lord God Almighty:just and true are thy ways: thou King of saints.(4) Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify the name? For thou only art Holy; For all nations will come and worship before thee: for thy judgments are made manifest. (16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou has judged thus.(this is about Jesus) (6) They have shed blood of prophets, and thou has given them blood to drink: for they are worthy.(7) This is also speaking of Jesus) And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments . And (14) tells us:for they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of GOD ALMIGHTY. (15) Jesus says: Behold I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. Than Rev. 19:1 tells us of many people in Heaven saying, AL-le-lu-la: Salvation, and glory, and honor, and power, unto the Lord our God (remember 7) just told us Jesus was Lord God Almighty, He is who judges us) (2) says for true and righteous are His judgments, but these verses are calling Jesus: “Lord our God and God Almighty” 19:11 tells us :Heaven opened and behold a white horse: and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True (Jesus) and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. (12) tell us He had a name written, that no man knew, but He himself. (13) And He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and His name is called THE WORD OF GOD!!(Jesus) (16) He hath on His thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Rev 19: 9 tells us: blessed are he they that are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb than go to verse 17: Come and gather yourselfs together unto the supper of the Great God .(Hmmm) Rev 20:4 says:and I saw thrones and they sat upon them and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word Of God. (Remember 19:13 tells us Jesus name is called The word Of God) Than Rev21:5 says: And he that sat upon the throne said, behold I make all things new. And he said unto me, write: for these words are true and faithful(19;11Jesus is called faithful and true) (21:6) I am the Alpha and Omega The beginning and thee end (7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be His God and He shall be my son
Than if we go to Revelation 22:3 It says; and there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it: and His servants shall serve Him ( who’s servants does that mean the Lambs or Gods? It says “His and Him”. Is this saying they are one?) (4) and they shall see His face (Jesus) and His name shall be in their forheads (5) says the Lord God giveth them light. (7) jesus says: Behold I come quickly: Blessed is he that keepth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. (14)I am th Alpha and omega, The beginning and the end, the first and the last.Quote (katjo @ Sep. 04 2009,06:11) Revelation is of Jesus Christ. His judgment. Because Jesus tells you Himself that he is the Almighty. Rev1:6 (Jesus) And hath made us Kings and priests “unto God and His Father”.(whats this mean) To Him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen
(7) Behold He cometh with clouds and every eye shall see Him, all kindreds of earth shall wail because of Him.
(8) (Jesus) I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is and which was and which is to come, THE ALMIGHTY!
Rev. 14:7 says: fear God and give glory to Him: for the hour of His judgment has come:
(Jesus is going to judge us but here it is saying God’s judgment) and worship Him that made the heaven, and earth. And the sea, and the fountains of waters.(Remember Col. 1:16 tells us by Jesus were all things created in heaven and in earth. By Him and for Him)
Rev. 15:3, And they sang a knew song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvelous are thy works, Lord God Almighty:just and true are thy ways: thou King of saints.(4) Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify the name? For thou only art Holy; For all nations will come and worship before thee: for thy judgments are made manifest. (16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou has judged thus.(this is about Jesus) (6) They have shed blood of prophets, and thou has given them blood to drink: for they are worthy.(7) This is also speaking of Jesus) And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments . And (14) tells us:for they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of GOD ALMIGHTY. (15) Jesus says: Behold I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. Than Rev. 19:1 tells us of many people in Heaven saying, AL-le-lu-la: Salvation, and glory, and honor, and power, unto the Lord our God (remember 7) just told us Jesus was Lord God Almighty, He is who judges us) (2) says for true and righteous are His judgments, but these verses are calling Jesus: “Lord our God and God Almighty” 19:11 tells us :Heaven opened and behold a white horse: and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True (Jesus) and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. (12) tell us He had a name written, that no man knew, but He himself. (13) And He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and His name is called THE WORD OF GOD!!(Jesus) (16) He hath on His thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Rev 19: 9 tells us: blessed are he they that are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb than go to verse 17: Come and gather yourselfs together unto the supper of the Great God .(Hmmm) Rev 20:4 says:and I saw thrones and they sat upon them and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word Of God. (Remember 19:13 tells us Jesus name is called The word Of God) Than Rev21:5 says: And he that sat upon the throne said, behold I make all things new. And he said unto me, write: for these words are true and faithful(19;11Jesus is called faithful and true) (21:6) I am the Alpha and Omega The beginning and thee end (7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be His God and He shall be my son
Than if we go to Revelation 22:3 It says; and there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it: and His servants shall serve Him ( who’s servants does that mean the Lambs or Gods? It says “His and Him”. Is this saying they are one?) (4) and they shall see His face (Jesus) and His name shall be in their forheads (5) says the Lord God giveth them light. (7) jesus says: Behold I come quickly: Blessed is he that keepth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. (14)I am th Alpha and omega, The beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Are you calling God a “beast”? A Lamb is a carnal symbol of flesh and blood.God said never put him in the image of anything above or below the earth whether it be a Man, Beast, Bird nor anything in creation, so when God is talking about a “Lamb” you can say it is referring to Jesus but not God, lest you sin.
Romans 1:22-24 (King James Version)
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Cindy, Hope I didnt confuse you. Im not so sure if you are doubting the NWT or the trinity. But yes, I am a believer of the trinity. God Bless.
I think you know Nick
Just read the King James youll get the message.
Hi KAT,
Where is a trinity in the KJV?
Who teaches it in that version and why would it not be in all?Read the New Testement. Don't read anything into that you have been taught. Read it for what it says. It says that Jesus is the Son of God and that God is our Heavenly Father. If you get that you will know that Jesus is not God. He is the Son of God.
If you read this scripture without adding to it, you will understand that Jesus never clamied to be God. Only God Knows the day and the hour of Jesus's return. If Jesus had been God, he would have known this, wouldn't he? Jesus never claimed to be omnipotent, omnipresent or omniscient.
MATTHEW 24:36
KJV
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.The Bible tells us that God does perceive all things, which means that no fact can be hidden from His knowledge. As King David recognized: “Indeed, the darkness shall not hide from You, but the night shines as the day; the darkness and the light are both alike to You” (Psalm 139:12). God sees all things, and nothing can be hidden from His knowledge.
I personally dont think it matters too much. If you have both the Father and the son, and the spirit, at least you have all three. However you see it. It is all on the right track, and it is better than having just one (eg not excepting the son or not knowing the father) but Jesus did show us how to pray and it was to the Father.
What drew me to this site was the writtings about the matrix type world, and also the belief that hell is not nessesarily eternal. If i find a site and it speaks of eternal torment I leave it. Argueing about who is what and who is greater doesnt worry me. But you do have to have both. It is like if you have a child, and people try to jump around and push him out of the way and even kill him to get closer to you, thats not good! And vice versa. You need to have both, however you see it.
Blessings.
I know my bible. You should put scriptures together threw the WHOLE BIBLE not just pick out one. Because Jesus tells us, He and the father are one. The three that bear record in heaven, Father, Word, Holy Ghost are one. Rev. Jesus is the Alpha and Omega ,beginning and end, The ALMIGHTY,The Lord Our God,King of Kings and LORD OF LORDS. He is also called Faithful and True and Everlasting Father!
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