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It was a common practice among Jews to embody the word “God,” even “Jehovah,” in Hebrew names. Even today Immanuel is the proper name of many men; none of whom are incarnations of God.
Quote (david @ Oct. 24 2005,21:33) Are there any people out there who think that Satan is God?–2 Cor 4:4.
It says it right there. He must be God. Who else could it be talking about?
As well, at least three times Satan is referred to as “the ruler of the world.”If Jesus is the God of the Bible because he's specifically referred to as Mighty God and a god, then why couldn't we use the same reasoning to say that Satan is God?
Or Israel's human judges?
Or the angels?
They're all referred to as gods as well, a couple of times.Oh, but that's right. Jehovah is specifically called God roughly 1000 times in the Scriptures.
JOHN 8:54
“Jesus answered: “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifies me, he who YOU say is YOUR God;”
(I've looked up a few other Bible translations and they all convey the same thought. I'm not sure why you mentioned this scripture. It tells us that they they considered Jesus' Father to be God.)Why did John write what he did?
JOHN 20:31
“But these have been written down that YOU may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that, because of believing, YOU may have life by means of his name.”dave
Hi david,
I mention the scripture in Jn 8.54 because Jesus here says that the Father is the God of the Jews and thus the God of the old Testament.It was the perfect opportunity to tell people that God is a trinity and he was part of that trinity God but instead he specified that the Father was their God.
Trintarians sometimes try to muddy the water to show that 'God' is an ambiguous term that could be taken to mean a trinity God.There is no ambiguity here.
“God” means “the Father”.
Numerous times in the Bible, Jesus says that the Father sent him, or he was sent by the Father.
With this foremost representative of Jehovah among mankind, Matthew under inspiration could truly say, “With Us Is God.”
Hi david,
The Son was more than a representative of God. He was a vessel in whom “dwelled the fullness of deity” according to Collossians. So close was their unity that Jesus spoke of Himself and God as “we” several times in John and said “we will come to you”.Soxan,
Quote Revelation 1:
4 John, to the seven churches which are in Asia:Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth.
To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us king and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”Reading verse 8 in context you will see that the one who is and who was and who is to come is identified in verse 4. In verse 5 we see that “Jesus” is not that Person, as he is identified separately from Him. Verse 8 is the Father speaking, not the Son. You berate Nick unnecessarily.
By the way, verse 6 clearly shows that “Jesus” has a God over him. Therefore he can not be the Almighty, as the Almighty is the mightiest of all and has no god over Him.
More food for thought:
Quote “…that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him.” – Ephesians 1:17 “For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” – 1 Timothy 2:5
“I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels…” – 1 Timothy 5:21
“James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ…” – James 1:1
“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants…” – Revelation 1:1
Nick,
Yes, he was much more than a representative. He was many things. A representative was one of such things. So I see no need to take issue with this non-issue, especially when we are discussing the trinity, and I believe just as you do on this subject.
I was simply pointing out to Soxon one of the reasons why Jesus was appropriately be called Immanuel.Hi Is 1.18,
If Jesus is God did God come in the flesh?
Did God empty Himself and come as a servant?
If God emptied Himself then of what?
If God was emptied then in whose power was he working?Acts 10.38
” 38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.”Was God anointed by God with God?
Is God sitting next to Himself on His own right hand?
Over and over the Bible says that Jesus is the Son of God.
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and perfecter of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
Act 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you slew and hanged on a tree.
Act 5:31 Him has God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Savior, to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.I think many need to start realizing that yes, God has a Son and that Son is our Lord Jesus Christ, who God, our Heavenly Father exalted and place Him on His right hand
Psa 110:1 [A Psalm of David.] The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool
Mar 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Spirit, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit on my right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool.
God Bless everyone here!!
If Jesus is God…then……..
We no longer have a mediator.
No one to plead our case to our Heavenly Father.
That's not good.
Hi
I have transferred this post
Is 1 I8 said
“The Word did empty Himself and took on the form of a bondservant….but I don't believe it was deity that He emptied Himself of, as that conclusion would introduce a lot contradictions into scripture. For instance, how could we reconcile these two verses:”But such a statement presupposes that Jesus WAS a DEITY.
He was…
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He could not give up his status as a deity unless he had such status.agreed…BTW I didn't propose that He did give up His deity…..so I don't know here this is leading….
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A deity is a god that is worshipped.I disagree. Men worship whatever they want to…including pieces of wood and stone. Apparently dung beetles were/are worshipped in Egypt by pagans….
Men should worship the one actual deity, YHWH.
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How can one be emptied of DEITY?Exactly! I can't possibly fathom how this could happan….
I'm beginning to wonder if you in fact read my post at all….here is what I wrote:
“Obviously if the Logos divested Himself of that which defined the intrinsic nature of his being, it could not be legitimately said of Him that He is the same yesterday, today and forever….His ontology MUST have remained unchanged. This is true no matter what you believe He existed AS before His incarnation. So, as I previously mentioned, I do not hold to the premise that He divested Himself of deity, but rather the independant usage of His divine attributes. This would explain why He was able to receive worship, was called God (in the nominative and vocative), and fulfilled prophecies that only YHWH could fulfill etc etc…while still a man.”
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It is something you are or are not, not a disposable state.I agree, you can't become a divine being any more than you can become an eternal being….
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Can you show me any scriptures that say that Jesus was a deity, a god that was worshipped, before coming as a man?John 1:1-4
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.Philippians 2:6
6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,In John 5:23 we are told that all will honor the Son even as (i.e., in the exact same way) as we honor the Father, and what is worship but the highest possible form of honor?
The Father commanded the angels to worship Him:
Hebrews 1:6
And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.”and indeed Yahshua will be worshipped in Heaven:
Revelation 5:12-14
12saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.” 13And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.” 14And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen ” And the elders fell down and worshiped.The context unmistakably bears out that this worship goes well beyond mere deference (the kind of proskuneo allowed to be recieved by men). Yahshua was worshipped as deity, and we both agree that He did not BECOME divine….
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I do not accept that the Word who was with God was part of that God and worshipped AS that God or was worshipped WITH that God but await your evidence of such things.Not once have I ever said that the pre-incarnate Jesus was a “part of God”…..so i'm not going to submit evidence for something I don't actually hold to, and have never postulated…
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Your use of ONTOLOGY presupposes that all divine beings are equal and since you say there is only one divine being then you have to say that he was still part of GodI don't follow your convoluted logic here…and I have not once written that The Logos was a “part of God”…..
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and not a son of God.Yahshua is the Son of God but I don't think He was called this because He was the pre-incarnate progeny of The Father. I also do not believe the Father spawned a whole legion of “Sons”, with the foremost of them being The Logos. This is not what Scripture teaches…and neither should we….
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But scripture mentions many other gods, not gods that are worshipped or deities but called God by God's Spirit in scripture.I maintain that these “gods” that you mention are in fact false gods. This is what scripture explicitly bears out:
Jeremiah 2:11
“Has a nation changed gods
When they were not gods?
But My people have changed their glory
For that which does not profit.Acts 14:15
15and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We are also men of the same nature as you, and preach the gospel to you that you should turn from these vain things to a living God,WHO MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH AND THE SEA AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM1 Corinthians 8:4
4Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one.1 Corinthians 10:20
No, but I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers in demons.Galatians 4:8-9
8Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. 9But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?Also see: Deu 32:21, 1 Sa 21:21; Ps 96:5; Isa 37:19; 41:23-24, 29; Jer 5:7; 16:20;
God considers the “gods” false gods, demons….That was why Paul devoted a significant portion of text in his letters to calling people out of the paganist practice of believing in more than one deity. This is because to believe in more than one divine being is to adhere to the polytheism . Something that YHWH through Isaiah, Jeremiah and Paul (predominantly) contented earnestly to dispel.
And there is no god beside YHWH:
Isaiah 43:10,11
10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. 11I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.Isaiah 44:6,8
6Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. 7And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them. 8Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.Isaiah 45:5,14,18,21,22
5I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:… 14Thus saith the LORD, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God… 18For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else…. 21Tell ye,
and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me….. 22Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.Isaiah 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,Ephesians. 4:4-6
4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.There are frequent, strong, unambiguous statements of EXCLUSIVITY to deity by the one God.There cannot be a primary and a secondary God because there is only one God – He is in a metaphysical category alone, scripture couldn’t be clearer on this matter. There is one God and everything else is creation. All other “gods” are false gods and not really gods at all.
Only ONE God, ONE savior, ONE Creator…..and NONE like Him.
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have never heard you claim that the other gods or ELOHIM, angelic beings are also part of God but await your statement on this too.Exactly…..I have never claimed this
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Again I do not accept that emptying can be read, “not really emptying but just not using”.I didn't infer that…here is what I wrote:
“So, as I previously mentioned, I do not hold to the premise that He divested Himself of deity, but rather the independant usage of His divine attributes.”
“Given that He apparently emptied Himself of the independent usage of the divine attributes…”
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He was made alike to us in all ways except sin so since none of us were born WITH such unsed powers then it would mean he did not HAVE THEM either.None of us were the product of the union of The Holy Spirit and a human either….
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The quaint thought that he was still worshipped or earth[proskneo] proves he is STILL a deity must be matched with evidence that he was worshipped as a deity in heaven.——————————————————————————–
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 02 2006,10:35)
Hi Is 1.18,
You say“The Word did empty Himself and took on the form of a bondservant….but I don't believe it was deity that He emptied Himself of, as that conclusion would introduce a lot contradictions into scripture. For instance, how could we reconcile these two verses:”
But such a statement presupposes that Jesus WAS a DEITY.
He was…
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He could not give up his status as a deity unless he had such status.agreed…BTW I didn't propose that He did give up His deity…..so I don't know here this is leading….
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A deity is a god that is worshipped.I disagree. Men worship whatever they want to…including pieces of wood and stone. Apparently dung beetles were/are worshipped in Egypt by pagans….
Men should worship the one actual deity, YHWH.
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How can one be emptied of DEITY?Exactly! I can't possibly fathom how this could happan….
I'm beginning to wonder if you in fact read my post at all….here is what I wrote:
“Obviously if the Logos divested Himself of that which defined the intrinsic nature of his being, it could not be legitimately said of Him that He is the same yesterday, today and forever….His ontology MUST have remained unchanged. This is true no matter what you believe He existed AS before His incarnation. So, as I previously mentioned, I do not hold to the premise that He divested Himself of deity, but rather the independant usage of His divine attributes. This would explain why He was able to receive worship, was called God (in the nominative and vocative), and fulfilled prophecies that only YHWH could fulfill etc etc…while still a man.”
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It is something you are or are not, not a disposable state.I agree, you can't become a divine being any more than you can become an eternal being….
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Can you show me any scriptures that say that Jesus was a deity, a god that was worshipped, before coming as a man?John 1:1-4
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.Philippians 2:6
6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,In John 5:23 we are told that all will honor the Son even as (i.e., in the exact same way) as we honor the Father, and what is worship but the highest possible form of honor?
The Father commanded the angels to worship Him:
Hebrews 1:6
And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.”and indeed Yahshua will be worshipped in Heaven:
Revelation 5:12-14
12saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.” 13And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.” 14And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen ” And the elders fell down and worshiped.The context unmistakably bears out that this worship goes well beyond mere deference (the kind of proskuneo allowed to be recieved by men). Yahshua was worshipped as deity, and we both agree that He did not BECOME divine….
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I do not accept that the Word who was with God was part of that God and worshipped AS that God or was worshipped WITH that God but await your evidence of such things.Not once have I ever said that the pre-incarnate Jesus was a “part of God”…..so i'm not going to submit evidence for something I don't actually hold to, and have never postulated…
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Your use of ONTOLOGY presupposes that all divine beings are equal and since you say there is only one divine being then you have to say that he was still part of GodI don't follow your convoluted logic here…and I have not once written that The Logos was a “part of God”…..
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and not a son of God.Yahshua is the Son of God but I don't think He was called this because He was the pre-incarnate progeny of The Father. I also do not believe the Father spawned a whole legion of “Sons”, with the foremost of them being The Logos. This is not what Scripture teaches…and neither should we….
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But scripture mentions many other gods, not gods that are worshipped or deities but called God by God's Spirit in scripture.I maintain that these “gods” that you mention are in fact false gods. This is what scripture explicitly bears out:
Jeremiah 2:11
“Has a nation changed gods
When they were not gods?
But My people have changed their glory
For that which does not profit.Acts 14:15
15and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We are also men of the same nature as you, and preach the gospel to you that you should turn from these vain things to a living God,WHO MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH AND THE SEA AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM1 Corinthians 8:4
4Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one.1 Corinthians 10:20
No, but I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers in demons.Galatians 4:8-9
8Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no g
ods. 9But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?Also see: Deu 32:21, 1 Sa 21:21; Ps 96:5; Isa 37:19; 41:23-24, 29; Jer 5:7; 16:20;
God considers the “gods” false gods, demons….That was why Paul devoted a significant portion of text in his letters to calling people out of the paganist practice of believing in more than one deity. This is because to believe in more than one divine being is to adhere to the polytheism . Something that YHWH through Isaiah, Jeremiah and Paul (predominantly) contented earnestly to dispel.
And there is no god beside YHWH:
Isaiah 43:10,11
10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. 11I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.Isaiah 44:6,8
6Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. 7And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them. 8Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.Isaiah 45:5,14,18,21,22
5I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:… 14Thus saith the LORD, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God… 18For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else…. 21Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me….. 22Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.Isaiah 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,Ephesians. 4:4-6
4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.There are frequent, strong, unambiguous statements of EXCLUSIVITY to deity by the one God.There cannot be a primary and a secondary God because there is only one God – He is in a metaphysical category alone, scripture couldn’t be clearer on this matter. There is one God and everything else is creation. All other “gods” are false gods and not really gods at all.
Only ONE God, ONE savior, ONE Creator…..and NONE like Him.
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have never heard you claim that the other gods or ELOHIM, angelic beings are also part of God but await your statement on this too.Exactly…..I have never claimed this
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Again I do not accept that emptying can be read, “not really emptying but just not using”.I didn't infer that…here is what I wrote:
“So, as I previously mentioned, I do not hold to the premise that He divested Himself of deity, but rather the independant usage of His divine attributes.”
“Given that He apparently emptied Himself of the independent usage of the divine attributes…”
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He was made alike to us in all ways except sin so since none of us were born WITH such unsed powers then it would mean he did not HAVE THEM either.None of us were the product of the union of The Holy Spirit and a human either….
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The quaint thought that he was still worshipped or earth[proskneo] proves he is STILL a deity must be matched with evidence that he was worshipped as a deity in heaven.If He allowed Himself to be worshipped and was not the one true God – then He was guilty of the most pernicious form of blasphemy….He put Himself in a place that YHWH alone occupies. Since you and I both agree that someone cannot BECOME divine then it stands to reason that He was always was true deity….
Scripture also attest to this – John 1:1, John 8:58, Phil 2:6, Hebrews 1:10…
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You cannot have it both ways and say his deity was combined with God in heaven but separate from God on earth.Huh?
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And if you do you will also have to produce evidence the Spirit is also worshipped as a deity in heaven and on earth for the equal trinity theory to hold water.Why am I constantly being asked to defend things that I have not affirmed…..?
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He was a divine beingThere is only ONE divine being – YHWH….are you now saying that Yahshua is YHWH?
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above the angelsThe Creator of Angels, in fact:
John 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.Colossians 1:16
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for himQuote
with glory of his own seen by the witnesses on the mountain and he shed all those advantagesWhat advantages specifically?
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and powers to be just a spirit being and the Spirit added the third dimension of a human body through Mary so that he was alike to us and EMPTY of power and Glory.Could you elaborate on what you have written here?
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What is this restriction on the INDEPENDANT USE OF his powers? You mean God did not anoint him with His power but he just used his own on instruction from God?The way I have read the Gospels I understand that He divested Himself entirely of the independant (autonomous) use of the divine attributes to take on the form of a lowly bondservant. And he operated exclusively by the power of the Spirit….This appears to me to make the best sense of the biblical data
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Then what of Acts 10.38?
” 38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.”Indeed God was in Him….I have never disputed this.
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Did he have two lots of powers?Heb 13
” 8Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.”
refers not to his tent body as that dies, but to his inner being, the person of Jesus, the Son of God, the Word of God. He is the one who came in the flesh, and not God.According to John the Word was God and the Word became flesh….how do you explain this?
According to Paul the pre-incarnate Yahshua existed (huparcho) in the form (morphe) of God, and took on the form (morphe) of a bondservant….how do you explain this?
Acording to the writer of Hebrews it was the pre-incarnate Yahshua Who “Laid the foundations of the Earth”, when the Psalmist of Psa 102:25 unambiguously states that it was YHWH Who did this….how do you explain this?
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Like all men he was a vessel which the Father filled with His Spirit at the Jordan.It doesn't actually say that He was “filled with His Spirit” in the text:
Matthew 3:16
16After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,Luke 3:22
and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, “You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased.”Quote
After his victory all his new powers from God Himself remained with him and greater glory yet was given him to sit with God at God's right hand on the throne.I don't remember reading this anywhere in scripture…where would I find it?
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God was in him.
2Cor 5
“19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.”Again, I don't dispute that God was in Him…..
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Col 1.
“19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; “
Col 2
” 9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. ”Colossian 2:9 records“ For in Him all the fullness of Deity (Gr. Theotes) dwells in bodily form.” (NASB). “Dwells” is the translation from the Greek word “katoikeo”, meaning “to permanently settle down in a dwelling.” “Fullness” is from the Greek word “pleroma” indicating that which “is filled up.” Theotes is used in this verse as an abstract noun for ‘theos’. It does not designate that Jesus was filled with the Father Himself. Paul would have used the noun ’theos’ if he wanted to convey this (note that Jesus is also said to be IN the Father in John 10:38; 14:10, 11; 17:21).
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Now of course he could not be that God which was in him.I agree that He could not be the person of the Spirit of God that was in Him…..
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God was in him in the fullness of deity. I hope this answers your queries.If Paul wanted to convey the sentiment that the fulness of the Father was in Yahshua he would not have used the word “theotes” in Col 2:9 – instead He would have chosen to use “theos”….
This question was not addressed:
2. What kind of being was the pre-incarnate Logos?
Sorry if I appeared short…there was a lot to address and I have other posts to respond to….
Blessings
Edited by Is 1:18 on Oct. 03 2006,10:07
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Yahshua said: “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I AM He [ego eimi], you will die in your sins” (John 8:24)Scripture also attest to this – John 1:1, John 8:58, Phil 2:6, Hebrews 1:10…
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You cannot have it both ways and say his deity was combined with God in heaven but separate from God on earth.Huh?
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And if you do you will also have to produce evidence the Spirit is also worshipped as a deity in heaven and on earth for the equal trinity theory to hold water.Why am I constantly being asked to defend things that I have not affirmed…..?
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He was a divine beingThere is only ONE divine being – YHWH….are you now saying that Yahshua is YHWH?
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above the angelsThe Creator of Angels, in fact:
John 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.Colossians 1:16
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for himQuote
with glory of his own seen by the witnesses on the mountain and he shed all those advantagesWhat advantages specifically?
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and powers to be just a spirit being and the Spirit added the third dimension of a human body through Mary so that he was alike to us and EMPTY of power and Glory.Could you elaborate on what you have written here?
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What is this restriction on the INDEPENDANT USE OF his powers? You mean God did not anoint him with His power but he just used his own on instruction from God?The way I have read the Gospels I understand that He divested Himself entirely of the independant (autonomous) use of the divine attributes to take on the form of a lowly bondservant. And he operated exclusively by the power of the Spirit….This appears to me to make the best sense of the biblical data
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Then what of Acts 10.38?
” 38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.”Indeed God was in Him….I have never disputed this.
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Did he have two lots of powers?Heb 13
” 8Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.”
refers not to his tent body as that dies, but to his inner being, the person of Jesus, the Son of God, the Word of God. He is the one who came in the flesh, and not God.According to John the Word was God and the Word became flesh….how do you explain this?
According to Paul the pre-incarnate Yahshua existed (huparcho) in the form (morphe) of God, and took on the form (morphe) of a bondservant….how do you explain this?
Acording to the writer of Hebrews it was the pre-incarnate Yahshua Who “Laid the foundations of the Earth”, when the Psalmist of Psa 102:25 unambiguously states that it was YHWH Who did this….how do you explain this?
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Like all men he was a vessel which the Father filled with His Spirit at the Jordan.It doesn't actually say that He was “filled with His Spirit” in the text:
Matthew 3:16
16After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,Luke 3:22
and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, “You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased.”Quote
After his victory all his new powers from God Himself remained with him and greater glory yet was given him to sit with God at God's right hand on the throne.I don't remember reading this anywhere in scripture…where would I find it?
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God was in him.
2Cor 5
“19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.”Again, I don't dispute that God was in Him…..
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Col 1.
“19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; “
Col 2
” 9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. ”Colossian 2:9 records“ For in Him all the fullness of Deity (Gr. Theotes) dwells in bodily form.” (NASB). “Dwells” is the translation from the Greek word “katoikeo”, meaning “to permanently settle down in a dwelling.” “Fullness” is from the Greek word “pleroma” indicating that which “is filled up.” Theotes is used in this verse as an abstract noun for ‘theos’. It does not designate that Jesus was filled with the Father Himself. Paul would have used the noun ’theos’ if he wanted to convey this (note that Jesus is also said to be IN the Father in John 10:38; 14:10, 11; 17:21).
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Now of course he could not be that God which was in him.I agree that He could not be the person of the Spirit of God that was in Him…..
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God was in him in the fullness of deity. I hope this answers your queries.If Paul wanted to convey the sentiment that the fulness of the Father was in Yahshua he would not have used the word “theotes” in Col 2:9 – instead He would have chosen to use “theos”….
This question was not addressed:
2. What kind of being was the pre-incarnate Logos?
Sorry if I appeared short…there was a lot to address and I have other posts to respond to….
Blessings
Edited by Is 1:18 on Oct. 03 2006,10:07 ”
So Is 1.18,
Using typical trinity logic you cannot grasp the difference between a deity, a god and an idol. Fearful lest you be accused of polytheism you are unable
to accept that there are other beings of divine nature such as I said Jesus and the other ELOHIM had as shown in scripture.Are all other gods idols? Yes if they are worshiped.
Are all gods except God false gods? Yes by comparison with God yet scripture calls them gods.
Are the gods shown in Ps 97 and 1Cor 8 all idols? No unless they are worshiped.You say
“
If He allowed Himself to be worshipped and was not the one true God – then He was guilty of the most pernicious form of blasphemy….He put Himself in a place that YHWH alone occupies. Since you and I both agree that someone cannot BECOME divine then it stands to reason that He was always was true deity….”So you are saying that unless Jesus was God Most High then you would happily join in the throng picking up stones to kill him for blasphemy?
Surely not!He never said he was God but that he was the Son of God.
Who came in the flesh? God most High? Surely to say such things is antichrist?[1Jn 4.2]
You say
'There is only ONE divine being – YHWH….are you now saying that Yahshua is YHWH?”No but you appear to favour the Oneness position.
I agree with Scripture that he was not God, but God was in him.You say
“If Paul wanted to convey the sentiment that the fulness of the Father was in Yahshua he would not have used the word “theotes” in Col 2:9 – instead He would have chosen to use “theos”….No matter. What Paul did say was that God was in Christ, not God was Christ. Christ was a vessel for God and not God himself. You have agreed Jesus was born of God {spirit} and Mary so how can a man be God? You have agreed that God was with Christ so how can God also BE the Christ he was with and within?
You say
“It doesn't actually say that He was “filled with His Spirit” in the text:”It does in Luke 4.1
” And Jesus, FULL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, returned from the Jordan…”just as it speaks of disciples in Acts 2 and in Acts 6,Stephen in Acts 7, Barnabas in Acts 11 etc
You say
“and powers to be just a spirit being and the Spirit added the third dimension of a human body through Mary so that he was alike to us and EMPTY of power and Glory.Could you elaborate on what you have written here?”
Jesus was a being before partaking of flesh.
You say
“Yahshua is the Son of God but I don't think He was called this because He was the pre-incarnate progeny of The Father. I also do not believe the Father spawned a whole legion of “Sons”, with the foremost of them being The Logos. This is not what Scripture teaches…and neither should we….”God does not spawn, frogs do.
But God did have other sons shown in Job 1.2,38
So why is it hard to accept that the firstborn Son was also with God as scripture says the Word was?I said
“He was made alike to us in all ways except sin so since none of us were born WITH such unsed powers then it would mean he did not HAVE THEM either.”
Do you accept Jesus was like to us in all ways except sin?You say
“Acording to the writer of Hebrews it was the pre-incarnate Yahshua Who “Laid the foundations of the Earth”, when the Psalmist of Psa 102:25 unambiguously states that it was YHWH Who did this….how do you explain this?”
Dop you not understand the law of agency?You quoted but did not expound
“Then what of Acts 10.38?
” 38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.”You said
Again I do not accept that emptying can be read, “not really emptying but just not using”.I didn't infer that…here is what I wrote:
“So, as I previously mentioned, I do not hold to the premise that He divested Himself of deity, but rather the independant usage of His divine attributes.”
“Given that He apparently emptied Himself of the independent usage of the divine attributes…”
You have yet to explain which powers Jesus worked in, his own or God's Spirit's?
I will continue tomorrow.
life_of_praise
Group: Members
Posts: 24
Joined: Oct. 2006 Posted: Oct. 02 2006,02:24——————————————————————————–
Is God sitting next to Himself on His own right hand?Well, hand is not a literal hand little one. To sit at one's right hand is to sit in their glory and in their authority. You will NEVER see the Father so to see one sitting at his right side is impossible. You will see Jesus in the Father's Glory and see the Father through him, the Son.
Hi Casey
You said
“Well, hand is not a literal hand little one. To sit at one's right hand is to sit in their glory and in their authority. You will NEVER see the Father so to see one sitting at his right side is impossible. You will see Jesus in the Father's Glory and see the Father through him, the Son. “Then what of Stephen ?
Did he not really see that which he claimed to see but he was speaking metaphysically?Acts 7
“55But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.”
Hi Is 1.18
“But such a statement presupposes that Jesus WAS a DEITY.He was…”
Now if you say Jesus was a DEITY then are you saying he was God Himself as you do not agree that he was part of God? Then if so when he came to earth as a man was it still as God Himself, and if so did God Himself have a God as he claimed to have? Did he become the Son of God at conception and remain then as a separate being or was that to you just an appellation for God, as God appeared to men on earth? If so was he never really the Son of God and God was never his Father?If “allowing himself to be worshipped” is your “strongest” evidence that he was God Himself is that really evidence at all given that it denies he was who he said he was, and who God said he was, the Son of God? Did he not deserve to be bowed before as the Son of God, the vessel for God?
If he was God but did not use his powers independantly on earth then how could he be God?
Nick you confuse me. From some of your threads you seem to be saying Jesus is God and in others you seem to be arguing against it. I think we both are Socratic in our method of teaching to wich I say touche, but where do you stand. As I said before I say again, I do not know exactly where I stand on this issue. I know where I stand on all other beliefs but in regards to who Jesus was I am not sure. Having said that I now ask you, where do you?
When Jesus saw the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Father he did not see the Son of Man sitting next to some presupposed Huge White bearded guy named the Father. He was in the Glory of the Father. Again, your hermeneutics is skewed sir. You are trying to take a Jewish writing written in Greek, copied from the 1st century, translated in English, and trying to make it a post modern, American view. Saying that someone is sitting at the right hand of someone now is literal. He was not being literal but was speaking a WELL KNOWN Jewish reference. When the leaders stoning him heard this there anger would have gone off the wall as they knew he was referring to Jesus in the same breath of the Father's Glory. How they believed that to be obviously from the Gospels was that Jesus decalaring himself to be the Son of God made himself equal to God.Hi Casey,
Welcome.
Not sure if you're asking whether Jesus is part of the so-called Trinity, or if you are wondering if he is the Son of God conceived through the virgin birth, come down from heaven; or if as the unitarians, you are not sure if he is 100% human? Please clarify.
Thanks.
Hi casey,
My view?
Jesus is the glorious beloved monogenes Son of God.
He was begotten of God alone, in that epoch called the beginning, as the Word.
His nature was as ELOHIM, an image of God, the firstborn through whom God created.
But though he had that divine nature he did not want to grasp at equality with the Father but chose instead submission to God, emptying, partaking of the flesh of man through Mary.
He was filled eternally with the Spirit of God to the fullness of deity at the Jordan and raised by that Spirit of God at his death and returning to even greater glory with God.
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