Is it sufficient only to believe in christ&#8230;

Participant

IS IT SUFFICIENT ONLY TO BELIEVE IN CHRIST
IN ORDER TO BE SAVED?
Compiled from the works of St. Theophan the Recluse

According to Protestant teaching, if one has believed in Christ, one is saved, that is, one's sins are forgiven. According to this belief one does not have to fear falls, and virtues will proceed from the heart by themselves. Christ is within the believer and will not abandon him for any reason, paradise and the kingdom of heaven are his, etc.

All that is left to do is to rejoice: there will be no more labors, no fears, no struggles with the passions – the road will be smooth and full of gladness. And it is no wonder that many cling to this teaching. It is very attractive. However, there is no truth in it, but only deception. In order to refute this false teaching, Theophan the Recluse begins by directing our attention to the way into the kingdom of heaven as described in the word of God.

The Savior said: “Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in therein…” [Matt. 7:13]. And He further taught: “If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.” [Matt. 16:24]. “The kingdom of heaven is taken by force (i.e., by forcing oneself and by the earnest labor in searching), and the forceful (i.e., those who force themselves to labor without feeling sorry for themselves), take it by force” [Matt. 11:12].

The holy Apostle Paul writes: “…work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” [Philippians 2:12]. “Let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God” [2 Cor. 7:1]. By all means strive that “…your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” [1 Thess. 5:23]. If you want to be a true Christian, imitate those who are of Christ, for they have”…crucified the flesh with the affectations and lusts” [Gal. 5:24].

After that, St. Theophan with special force points out how strict the commandments of the Savior are concerning passionless and purity of heart, and how much attention and labor are needed to fulfill them. Do not dare to allow the slightest impulse of displeasure or anger against your brother: sin the slightest in this and you are already judged and in Gehenna [Matt. 5:22]. Meanwhile, we have another serious conflict. With regard to the opposite sex, how severe! One has only to glance in an improper way and already there is lust, and again Gehenna [Matt. 5:28-29]. And for judging others, how strict is the sentence! He who judges, in that very moment when he judges, and for that act alone, even if there are no others, is already judged, and not just some empty judgement like one's own, but judged by God, immovable and eternal [Matt. 7:1]. Even for every idle word one must answer [Matt. 12:36], and concerning a loose tongue, who can tame it [James 3:8]? Therefore, what strict attention one must pay to oneself and how vigilantly one must labor over oneself!

If the trifles which we do not now consider to be sins are dealt such strict sentences and judgements, then what can be said about serious sins and passions? They are so abhorrent to the Holy Spirit and Christ that they should not even be brought to mind by Christians. If they are in the heart of one who desires to enter the kingdom of heaven, undoubtedly it is necessary to drive them out of there. What labors it requires and what battles with oneself.

Take the passion of lust, or take pride or vainglory, take stinginess, envy, lewdness, self-will and disobedience, or whatever passion you take, the eradication of it requires bloody sweat and tears. Therefore, see how those are forced to torment themselves who are entangled with some kind of passion and have undertaken to uproot it. One cannot reassure oneself that all of one's sins are forgiven simply by the Cross of Christ and simply by approaching the Lord with faith. Whoever reassures himself with this hope and neglects the cleansing of his heart is deceiving himself. In the Mysteries of Baptism and Repentance indeed all former sins are completely blotted out and already forgotten. But then having once received from God such mercy, one must thereafter guard oneself from all sin, from all passionate impulses, attractions and thoughts. With the forgiveness of former sins one is given the grace of the Holy Spirit in order to help eradicate from the heart those harmful habits and passions which remain in it and give birth to further sin. If one begins to sin again, this deprives him of the gift and again he enters the ranks of the unforgiven and graceless. That is why those who are zealous for the salvation of their souls, following their conversion to the Lord, immediately begin, with the help of the grace of God, a battle with their passions and lusts, an unyielding battle.

So then, this – and not rejoicing – is what greets those who come to the Lord in faith. While being preoccupied with rejoicing one cannot fight with passions. Such a struggle does not even begin in these cases. Passions will remain in such a person, turning him into a whitened sepulchre, the outside beautiful, but the inside filled with dead men's bones. Such people call themselves blessed, with such words as: “How fortunate I am! How glad I am! Christ has saved me, Christ has taken away my sins, Christ has granted me paradise!” Whereas Christ, looking at them, judges them righteously and condemns them to Gehenna.

The necessity of cleansing ourselves from all things sinful and passionate in order to inherit the kingdom of heaven, St. Theophan supports by example of God's Saints. In the lives of the Saints, those who pleased and glorified God, we are told that they conducted their entire lives in struggles of self-modification and in labors by occupying themselves in virtues with unceasing recourse to God and to the source of grace – the Sacraments of the Church. This brought them at last into a state where evil inclinations and passions were completely removed from their souls and bodies; and instead of them there were installed good inclinations. When by this means all sins and passions are cast out, human nature again takes on its pure, original appearance; their spirit, soul, and body, permeated with grace, shine with divine light, which serves as an obvious sign that they finally became temples of the Triune God, as the Lord Jesus Christ promised.

Here are the most important of these points and the basis for the refutation of each of them:

ALL WHO BELIEVE IN CHRIST ARE ALREADY SAVED.

One cannot agree with this. All those who have believed in the Lord Jesus Christ have only stepped onto the path which truly and undoubtedly will lead to salvation, but they are saved when they finish this path without fail and without falling away. Therefore, according to the Evangelist Mark the Lord says: “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved…” [Mark 16:16], but is not saved yet.

HAVING BELIEVED IN CHRIST, THROUGH THIS ALONE
ONE APPROPRIATES TO HIMSELF THE GRACE OF REDEMPTION.

This is not enough. The Lord redeemed us by His Blood, or by His death upon the Cross. We acquire the redeeming power of the Lord's death in the Mystery of Holy Baptism, as the Apostle Paul explains [Romans 6:4]. Here man is crucified with Christ, washed in His Blood, and cleansed from sin. This power is renewed in the Mystery of Repentance, which is a second baptism in the font of tears. Faith precedes and accompanies both of these Mysteries, but faith alone, without these Mysteries, does not attract and does not renew the redeeming power of the Lord's death on the Cross. Even with these Mysteries, faith alone does not attract such power, but is accomplished together with contrition of heart for sins, firm resolve to live a holy life, and confession of sins to a spiritual father.

ALL WHO HAVE BELIEVED IN CHRIST AND AR
E CONVINCED
OF FORGIVENESS OF THEIR SINS THROUGH THIS,
RECEIVE CHRIST INTO THEMSELVES.

From where have they taken this? asks St. Theophan, and then he points out how the Lord and the holy Apostles taught how one receives Christ in oneself. St. Paul writes: “As many as have been baptized in Christ have put on Christ” [Gal. 3:27]. Having put on Christ, one, of course, has received Him into oneself. Therefore, whoever has been baptized has become a receiver of Christ in himself. The Lord said: “He that eateth My Flesh and drinketh My Blood abideth in Me and I in him” [John 5:56]. If the Lord abides in one who has received Communion, then it is because, certainly, in Holy Communion he receives Him. Therefore, whoever has received the Holy Mysteries of the Body and Blood of Christ, has become through this a receiver of Him. Faith only opens the way to the Lord, for receiving Him in the sacraments of Baptism and Holy Communion.

In another place in the same Evangelist, John the Theologian, the Lord shows still another way to receive Him, namely, by fulfilling His commandments. “He that hath My commandments,” says the Lord, “and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me: and he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father, and I will love him, and will manifest Myself to him” [John 14:21]. And further: “If a man love Me, he will keep My words: and My father will love him, and We will come unto him, and make Our abode with him” [John 14:23]

Do not think that this fulfilling of the commandments will open the way for the dwelling of the Lord in us in a special or separate way apart from Holy Baptism or Holy Communion. The grace of Baptism and Holy Communion gives the power to faithfully fulfill the commandments. Having fulfilled all the commandments, one adorns his soul with all virtues and makes his heart a temple worthy to be a habitation of the Lord. Only then will He dwell in him. He abides in him from the moment of Holy Baptism and even more completely communes with him in Holy Communion. Though helping him in a holy life, still the Lord does not completely rest content in him, because there does not dwell in the soul all the virtues acquired through the fulfillment of the commandments. In him are left still traces of passions and he falls into sins offensive to the Lord. He will not dwell in him, not trusting him and as yet only preparing in him a dwelling for Himself. But when the soul is sanctified by virtues, then He enters in good faith, as into a house, and dwells peacefully, undisturbed by the movement of offensive sins and passions in him…Here are all the means for accepting the Lord which He Himself has established. Without the Mysteries, neither faith nor virtues will attract the Lord.

IF WE HAVE RECEIVED CHRIST, HE WILL NEVER ABANDON US,
NO MATTER WHAT.

St. Theophan asks: “Is it possible that Christ will abide where a person, by his sins committed after receiving Him, tramples on His Blood and crucifies Him again?” [See Heb. 6:6; 10:26-29]. It is known that sins make the soul and body foul. How can those who are deluded have the audacity to claim Him while in such foulness? God Himself testifies that our sins separate Him from us. Consequently, Christ the Lord forsakes him who sins, in whom He was formerly, and the good will of the Father withdraws from him, and the grace of the Holy Spirit is driven away. There other spirits begin to rule – the unclean.
THOSE WHO HAVE RECEIVED CHRIST ARE INCAPABLE OF MORTAL SIN.

In this statement there is no truth. The first among angels fell; one formerly among the Apostles fell; how many examples there are of falls of holy men of high life and wonderworkers! Freedom always remains with man. And he can fall, no matter how high he stood or close to God he was.

ONE WHO HAS RECEIVED CHRIST AND THEN SINNED AGAIN
NEED ONLY TO REPENT, AND HE INSTANTLY RECEIVES
IMMEDIATE FORGIVENESS, SINCE CHRIST IS AN INEXHAUSTIBLE
SOURCE OF COMPASSION.

This statement is made in order to suggest that when a Christian sins, confession of sins and absolution from a spiritual father in the Mystery of Repentance as prescribed by God is not necessary, but that it is enough to sigh in the heart over a sin and one is immediately forgiven, as a sigh flies from the breast. Even a firm intention to refrain from sinning in the future is not required.

Indeed this is too simplistic, notes St. Theophan. The sin of every man is a great offense to God Who has written His law in our hearts. The sin of a Christian offends God incomparably more, since the Christian has received a clearer and fuller knowledge of commandments, and has received grace to strengthen him in the fulfillment of those commandments. And a Christian, who has received in himself Christ the Lord – which is the highest degree of Christian perfection – in sinning offends God immeasurably. The Apostle thus concludes that he tramples on the Blood of Christ, even crucifies Christ Himself, Whom he has received in himself, and offended the Holy Spirit.

(Source: Orthodox Life)

February 16, 2010 at 6:54 pm#178418

Participant

CA
you believe all of that
realy all of it

February 16, 2010 at 7:10 pm#178425

Participant

CA said:

Quote

Indeed this is too simplistic, notes St. Theophan. The sin of every man is a great offense to God Who has written His law in our hearts. The sin of a Christian offends God incomparably more, since the Christian has received a clearer and fuller knowledge of commandments, and has received grace to strengthen him in the fulfillment of those commandments. And a Christian, who has received in himself Christ the Lord – which is the highest degree of Christian perfection – in sinning offends God immeasurably. The Apostle thus concludes that he tramples on the Blood of Christ, even crucifies Christ Himself, Whom he has received in himself, and offended the Holy Spirit.

Hmmmm…. It is funny that St. Theophan would say that which I highlighted in bold blue when the Apostle said JUST THE OPPOSITE.

1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

The Apostle CLEARLY exhorted his audience to LEAVE the “elementary teachings of Christ.” Then he listed them:

1. faith toward God
2. doctrine of baptisms
3. the laying on of hands
4. the resurrection of the dead
5. eternal judgment

St. Theophan suggests that we crucify the Son of God when we abandon faith in God. Yet the apostle said that faith toward God is among those “elementary teachings” of Christ that we are to “leave.” We are warned that if we do not leave the “elementary teachings” that we “crucify the Son of God afresh.”

St. Theophan and CA have it all backwards. The new covenant rule is faith in Christ ALONE!

btw, many of Paul's warnings were penned BEFORE the new covenant took full effect.

Don't let CA's works salvation doctrine mislead you. Christ paid for our salvation IN FULL!

thinker

February 16, 2010 at 7:30 pm#178430

NickHassan

Participant

Hi TT,
Most never fulfill the elementary teachings of Christ to be able to move on and some even dare to offer another strange trinity god.

February 16, 2010 at 9:10 pm#178447

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 17 2010,06:10)

CA said:

Quote

Indeed this is too simplistic, notes St. Theophan. The sin of every man is a great offense to God Who has written His law in our hearts. The sin of a Christian offends God incomparably more, since the Christian has received a clearer and fuller knowledge of commandments, and has received grace to strengthen him in the fulfillment of those commandments. And a Christian, who has received in himself Christ the Lord – which is the highest degree of Christian perfection – in sinning offends God immeasurably. The Apostle thus concludes that he tramples on the Blood of Christ, even crucifies Christ Himself, Whom he has received in himself, and offended the Holy Spirit.

Hmmmm…. It is funny that St. Theophan would say that which I highlighted in bold blue when the Apostle said JUST THE OPPOSITE.

The Apostle CLEARLY exhorted his audience to LEAVE the “elementary teachings of Christ.” Then he listed them:

1. faith toward God
2. doctrine of baptisms
3. the laying on of hands
4. the resurrection of the dead
5. eternal judgment

St. Theophan and CA have it all backwards. The new covenant rule is faith in Christ ALONE!

btw, many of Paul's warnings were penned BEFORE the new covenant took full effect.

Don't let CA's works salvation doctrine mislead you. Christ paid for our salvation IN FULL!

thinker

Your errors are due to a lack of understanding of the atonement.

Dr. Robert Sungenis puts it very well here:

“Luther and Calvin believed Christ's passion was a legal payment for sin, otherwise known as “penal substitution.” Since Protestant theology believes salvation is forensic, then the atonement must be a legal transaction. Hence, as God requires the legal payment of eternal damnation for sin, Christ had to undergo its legal equivalent, while his physical suffering was of little consequence.

In his commentary on Psalm 22, Martin Luther held that Christ, as God and man, literally entered hell to sustain God's wrath, suffering the tortures of the damned.(10) Similarly, interpreting the clause “he descended into hell” in the Apostles' Creed, John Calvin writes:

But we must seek a surer explanation, apart from the Creed, of Christ's descent into hell…If Christ had died only a bodily death, it would have been ineffectual. No – it was expedient at the same time for him to undergo the severity of God's vengeance….For this reason, he must also grapple hand to hand with the armies of hell and the dread of everlasting death….By these words he means that Christ was put in place of evildoers as surety and pledge – submitting himself even as the accused – to bear and suffer all the punishments that they ought to have sustained…No wonder, then, if he is said to have descended into hell, for he suffered the death that God in his wrath had inflicted upon the wicked!(11)

Part and parcel with the Protestant concept of “penal substitution” is the idea that the Father punished Christ because Christ, by divine design, actually became the essence of sin. Since Christ was laden with sin, God had to reject Him, and punish Him as if He were an eternally damned sinner. This understanding comes from their innovative interpretation of 2 Cor 5:21 (“he became sin for us”), whereas all the patristic exegesis before them understood the clause as referring only to Christ becoming a “sin offering,” not sin itself, even as the corollary passage, Romans 8:3, stipulates.(12) In fact, for Catholic theology, it was precisely the fact that Christ was totally without the stain of sin, whether personally or vicariously, that He was able to offer Himself as an appeasing sacrifice. A victim laden with sin, even if it were only vicarious, could never be a propitiatory sacrifice, which is precisely why Luther repudiated the idea of propitiation and Catholic theology altogether. The two theologies could not be any further apart.

Having been confronted with the distorted views of Luther and Calvin, quite appropriately does the 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia state:

…The second mistake is the tendency to treat the Passion of Christ as being literally a case of vicarious punishment. This is at best a distorted view of the truth that His atoning Sacrifice took the place of our punishment, and that He took upon Himself the sufferings and death that were due to our sins.(13)

Not surprisingly, it was Luther's misunderstanding of the atonement that led him to view the Mass – which in Catholic theology is a re-enactment of the atonement – as the greatest abomination ever perpetrated on mankind. He writes: “No other sin, manslaughter, theft, murder or adultery is so harmful as this abomination of the popish Mass.”(14) Not surprisingly, Luther is totally adverse to the concept of appeasing God. He writes:

He who sacrifices wants to appease God. But he who wants to appease God regards him as wrathful and merciless; and he who does so does not expect grace or mercy of Him, but is afraid of His judgment and condemnation. But he who is to approach the sacrament profitably must believe and trust entirely that he has a gracious, merciful God who loves him so dearly that of His own free will He gave His greatest and dearest treasure.(15)

Luther held that only faith alone, not suffering, moved God to act. If this is not the case, Luther says, “do we not become unsure as to whether our sacrifice is acceptable to God?”(16) It is the same reason Calvinism's Heidelberg Catechism, Q. 80, calls the Eucharistic sacrifice “a cursed idolatry.”

The Council of Trent on the Atonement:

Against all this bluster, of course, is the Council of Trent – the greatest dogmatic council with which God has ever blessed the Catholic Church. The Council states Christ “made satisfaction for us to God the Father” (DS 799), and “Christ Jesus Who has satisfied for our sins” (DS 904), but never teaches that Christ paid a full eternal penalty for sin. Logically, if He had, then God would have no right to punish anyone in hell, since He could not, in justice, exact two eternal punishments for the same sin.

The connection between the Mass and Calvary is so profound, so identical, that when one listens to Trent's words about the Mass, he is listening to the echoes of the meaning of Calvary. Session 22, Chapter 2 put it this way:

In this divine sacrifice which is c
elebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. Therefore, the holy Council teaches that this sacrifice is truly propitiatory, so that, if we draw near to God with an upright heart and true faith, with fear and reverence, with sorrow and repentance, through it 'we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.' For the Lord, appeased by this oblation, grants grace and the gift of repentance, and he pardons wrong-doings and sins, even grave ones.

What you find at Trent is the notion of “propitiation” and “appeasement,” the very opposite of the forensic atonement offered by Luther and Calvin. For Trent, and all the Tradition prior (which Trent merely crystallized), the atonement was a personal sacrifice made voluntarily by the Son in an effort to appease the Father's wrath against mankind, preserve His honor among angels and men, and persuade Him to once again open the doors of mercy.”

By Dr. Robert Sungenis

February 16, 2010 at 9:17 pm#178449

NickHassan

Participant

Hi CA,
The pious words of such worldly philosophers are unhelpful to those seeking salvation.
It is found by coming to Jesus and being reborn of water and the Spirit.

February 16, 2010 at 9:21 pm#178452

Participant

you are blind ,and i do not follow any of men made religion and there politics,they are not run by my Lord Jesus and his father ,but the master of this world you know is name do you ??

February 16, 2010 at 10:42 pm#178473

942767

Participant

Hi CA:

According to your article:

Quote

All that is left to do is to rejoice: there will be no more labors, no fears, no struggles with the passions – the road will be smooth and full of gladness.

Are you saying that all protestant churches teach this? If so, this is not true. Believing is not just a mental assent, and after we are reconciled to God through our Lord, we as his disciples will suffer the same things that he suffered as we learn to apply the Word of God in our daily lives.

Love in Christ,
Marty

February 17, 2010 at 9:00 am#178578

Participant

CA wrote:

Quote

Your errors are due to a lack of understanding of the atonement.

Dr. Robert Sungenis puts it very well here:

Having been confronted with the distorted views of Luther and Calvin, quite appropriately does the 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia state:

The Council of Trent on the Atonement:

In this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. Therefore, the holy Council teaches that this sacrifice is truly propitiatory, so that, if we draw near to God with an upright heart and true faith, with fear and reverence, with sorrow and repentance, through it 'we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.' For the Lord, appeased by this oblation, grants grace and the gift of repentance, and he pardons wrong-doings and sins, even grave ones.

By Dr. Robert Sungenis

You ignored Hebrews 6:1-6 which I provided.

Repentance and faith toward God is not a requisite for new covenant salvation. Even your own Tertullian said this, “God must be believed on in His own dispensation.”

In the new covenant dispensation we must believe in Christ ALONE! To require repentance and faith toward God today is to “crucify the Son of God afresh.” To require that the elementary teachings of Christ apply today is to “crucify the Son of God afresh.”

Those apostolic teachings which agreed with Christ's elementary teachings have also passed away. What all non-preterists fail to see is that the first Christians lived in the transitional period between the passing away of the old covenant and the coming of the new covenant. When the new covenant fully came in ad70 God said, “I will remember their sins NO MORE.”

Christ paid the penalty for the sins of His people IN FULL.

thinker

February 17, 2010 at 9:51 am#178583

Participant

TT
ho boy, you do it again ,back to square one ,you must have a little book what you follow,no???

February 17, 2010 at 11:55 am#178599

JustAskin

Participant

IS it sufficient to believe ONLY in Jesus christ.

Why the long debate: “NO”, it is not. To believe in Jesus Christ, by necessity, is also to believe in the Father.

If one terminates at believing in Christ one is a disbeliever because Jesus did not come for himself but to reveal the father and bring us to an understanding of HIM (The father) so we may be saved through Jesus' sacrifice which was authorised by the Father.

February 17, 2010 at 3:51 pm#178619

Participant

JustAskin said:

Quote

Why the long debate: “NO”, it is not. To believe in Jesus Christ, by necessity, is also to believe in the Father.

But to “believe” in the Father is not, by necessity, to believe in Christ. And the rejection of Christ is, by necessity, the rejection of the Father. The unbelieving Jews and anti-trinitarians are perfect examples.

Therefore, the sole issue of faith in the new covenant age is faith in Christ. We are commanded to leave the principle of faith toward God:

1 Therefore, leaving the doctrines of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits. Heb. 3:1-3

thinker

February 17, 2010 at 3:53 pm#178620

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 17 2010,20:51)

TT
ho boy, you do it again ,back to square one ,you must have a little book what you follow,no???

Yeap! That “little book” is called the Bible.

Faith in God is OLD COVENANT.

Faith in Christ is NEW COVENANT!

thinker

February 17, 2010 at 4:52 pm#178630

JustAskin

Participant

TT,

To believe in the “Father” is to also believe in the Son.

You mean “To believe in God does not necessitate believing in Jesus.”

These two are not the same statements.

Many believe in God alone – Traditional Jews do not believe in Jesus, Muslims believe that Jesus was just a prophet.
But if you say “I believe in the Father” the how do you say “I don't believe in the Son”? how does one become a Father with out a Son?

I think you are still half asleep since emerging from your dwelling in dark, dank places.
The eyes to your mind are still blinded by the bright light of Truth and righteousness.
You are groping hopelessly trying to catch out the bright opened eyed one.

February 17, 2010 at 6:05 pm#178637

Participant

I do not understand about anyone who can separate Gods spirit ,in pieces this is not OT that is GOOD
this is not,NT or the other way around,
HOW IS MEN TO DECIEDIDING WHAT GOES AND DOES NOT GOES IN GODS SPIRIT.

ALL THE SCRIPTURES ARE OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD,AND ARE THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST FROM GENESIS TO REVELATION, IF YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH THAT” YOU ARE ABOVE GOD” BECAUSE YOU JUDGING THE SPIRIT OF GOD.

IF YOU ONLY HAVE FAITH IN CHRIST ,YOU DO NOT OBEY CHRIST WHO SAY “TO WORSHIP ONLY GOD”

IF YOU ONLY HAVE FAITH IN GOD ,YOU NOT OBEY GOD WHO SAY “TO HAVE FAITH IN CHRIST”

SO UNLESS YOUR FAITH INCLUSES CHRIST AND GOD HIS FATHER,AND THE BELIEVE IN THE ENTIRE BIBLE, YOUR FAITH IS A SHAKY ONE.

February 17, 2010 at 6:26 pm#178645

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 17 2010,20:00)

You ignored Hebrews 6:1-6 which I provided.

Repentance and faith toward God is not a requisite for new covenant salvation. Even your own Tertullian said this, “God must be believed on in His own dispensation.”

Christ paid the penalty for the sins of His people IN FULL.

thinker

Sounds like the underlying issue is the one I have deferred discussing with you for a very long time: preterism (mainly due to the time it would take to get into)

FYI, many Catholics are partial preterists. In that sense, I probably am one myself.

I want to defer your interpretation of Heb. 6 since it seems wholly tied up with your understanding of preterism and covenant.

So…wanna start another thread?

O…I really want to know what date you believe the Apocalypse (Revelation) was written. That will help me know where you land on things.

Thanks

February 17, 2010 at 6:32 pm#178648

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 17 2010,09:42)

Hi CA:

According to your article:

Quote

All that is left to do is to rejoice: there will be no more labors, no fears, no struggles with the passions – the road will be smooth and full of gladness.

Love in Christ,
Marty

You are right in this correction. Wesley (an Anglican) and others later eschewed the traditional Protestant understanding of the Revolt.

However, I'm not sure he made it back to a purely Catholic understanding. But maybe he was journeying back home. Let's hope so.

February 17, 2010 at 6:36 pm#178649

Participant

Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 17 2010,22:55)

IS it sufficient to believe ONLY in Jesus christ.

Why the long debate: “NO”, it is not. To believe in Jesus Christ, by necessity, is also to believe in the Father.

So why have you removed yourself from his sacrifice: His precious body, blood, soul and divinity? You must eat His body and drink His blood so you may have life.

But most of you JW's don't even receive your false version of Communion. You have reserved that for your mostly-non-Jewish 144,000.

Or did the numbers re-set after 1975 was a flop?

February 17, 2010 at 7:12 pm#178675