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I like the 18oo's version. I have one is about mid 18oo's. I do not know anyone personally that has an 1611 version.
Hi,
Do others agree with you that this is the only perfect version of the KJV or is it only your preference?Yes. Many across this country are beginning to come to this conclusion. Yet, the numbers are not vast compared to the multitude of religions we have in this nation. The interesting part about this is that many who are standing on the KJ are coming to the same doctrinal interpretation. Some faster then others, but not all grow at the same pace. Just as the early church was in one accord, the bride will be in one accord in the end of days. As the world becomes more evil, the bride will become closer to the bridegroom.
Hi H,
But they may be standing on corrupt versions of the KJV that you acknowledge are among the perfect ones.
How will this help them?Nick, they have the same version that we use. Some don't and I have had discussions with people. Not all grow or have grown to the same point. God leads all at his pace. He reveals to what he wants to who he wants, when he wants. And this goes for all. It is not just the kJ. It is for this reason I am here talking with you now. And the other wonderful children of the Lord on this site. It is such a blessing to share the things of the Lord.
I know I come on strong at times, and I ask forgiveness for that if I hurt anyones feelings. Yet, I do not do so out of a scornful heart. I do so out of a heart that knows that the time is short and the work that need done is great. So many lost and so few laboring. It is a sense of urgency and the false doctrines that the world has implanted into modern religion has had centuries to grow.
Hmm not so sure they share the same version.
The point is it is always good to discuss scripture with any sincere searcher as hopefully we all learn in the process.
But demanding that only one version is truth is a tangent and a distraction to those who have got beyond these arguments.
We hope you will too.That is where the problem is Nick. Those who have got beyond these arguments. The devil has decieve man into believing that God can be found in any bible translation. What about the one that is being created now that is removing all traces of homosexuallity. This sort of thing has been going on for a long time. To think that satan is not behind it is niave.
Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ June 29 2006,00:54) That is where the problem is Nick. Those who have got beyond these arguments. The devil has decieve man into believing that God can be found in any bible translation. What about the one that is being created now that is removing all traces of homosexuallity. This sort of thing has been going on for a long time. To think that satan is not behind it is niave.
Like the frog in the water? You know the story a little heat at a time.Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ June 29 2006,01:16) Amen.
Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so quickly removing from him that called you in the grace of Christ unto a different gospel;
Gal 1:7 which is not another gospel only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.Seems like that's been going on for a l-o-n-g time!
Hi H,
2Peter 1.19
“So we have the prophetic word made more sure,
to which you would do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place,
until the day dawns
and the MORNING STAR ARISES IN YOUR HEARTS”May that light shine more strongly till your anxieties about versions evaporate.
Hi,
This thread has gone way off course.When we are told that we sleep in death, what does this mean to those who would deny man has a soul?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 29 2006,00:04) Hi,
This thread has gone way off course.When we are told that we sleep in death, what does this mean to those who would deny man has a soul?
Hi!I have been reading these Forums in a bit of a frenzy to sortta' katch up with some of the thoughtworlds of those participating here. This Thread, for instance, mentioned something about an earlier series of Posts addressing the matter of 'Heaven' and similar. I have hurriedly read those too.
From what I have deciphered of many Posts here is that there are surprising insights being shared concerning our Gospel and I find this extremely refreshing. But I also notice, (if you don't mind me saying so), many inconsistencies too which I can only suspect is the result of a failure to fully understand certain scriptural terminology.
For example:
It isn't sufficient to disown the false ideas of the 'trinity'. One must replace it with a scripturally consistent confession which properly and fully answers the question which Jesus Himself asked His disciples, “Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?”. After all, it is only when we are equipped to answer the question, “Who is Jesus?”, that we are then able to answer the subsequent question, “Who am I as a Christian?”.Another matter I happened to notice is that many Posts clearly show an inadequate understanding of Hebrews 6:2 where it speaks of the “resurrection of the dead”. Yet, this is a very basic foundation of our Christian confession.
I do not wish to leave anyone the impression that I somehow am something of a 'know-it-all'. I want to say too that I have learned much by reading and participating in this Forum and am exceedingly grateful for those who have shared their wisdom and spritual treasures which I have found to be very helpful.
I only speak of these above mentioned observations because here we are discussing the matter of “sleep in death” and/or aka “sleep of the soul” doctrines.
There are Christians who lack insight in the world of the Kingdom of heaven and so their Christian life is based mostly on the Old Testament. The things which lay beyond the grave are a closed book to them. They fondly quote the words of Moses: 'The secret things belong to the Lord our God; but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children for ever' (Deut 29:29). But in the New Covenant Paul says: 'For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths (the deepest thoughts) of God' (1Cor 2:10). Thus, we rejoice in having received this Spirit!
Yet, what does Hebrews Chapter Eleven say about faith? Does it not pointedly say, ” Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. And, what exactly are these “things not seen”? These are the “mysteries of the kingdom”. These mysteries can only be understood by using the Keys of the Kingdom, (Matt 13:11 and 16:19). Thankfully, it is “Father's good pleasure to give” us knowledge of His Kingdom, (Luke 12:32).
The point I wish to make here is that the doctrine we frequently hear and which is known as the 'sleep of the soul' interferes with the foundation of our Gospel; with the teachings of Jesus Christ. The doctrine claims that the spiritually resurrected will die again. Such ideas are derived from a false cultural religion occupying itself with the visible world and not with the “unseen things” of the Kingdom of God.
A well-loved text of those who teach the so-called 'sleep of the soul' is Psalm 115:16: “The heavens are the Lord's heavens, but the earth He has given to the sons of man. The dead do not praise the Lord”. Many fail to see that this verse shows the tremendous difference between the Old and the New Covenant. Yet, the Lord says to His followers: “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the Kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given' (Matt 13:11).
Ecclesiastes says: “The dead know nothing, and they have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost”. This verse can be applied to those Christians who live at the Old Testament level because it may be said of them that, while they do have knowledge of the things happening on earth, they know nothing of that which is related to the unseen Kingdom of heaven. Nor do they have a spiritual understanding concerning the body of the Lord which is formed there.
When we bury someone, he is dead for us but he lives for God who dwells in the unseen world (Luke 20:38). The so-called doctrine of the sleep of the soul is based on the assumption that at his death the entire person dies. He is assumed to cease existing in body, soul and spirit. This error is in flat contradiction with the things the New Testament teaches about the Kingdom of heaven.
Just think of Abraham's discussion with Lazarus and the rich man. Revelation 6:9 tells us of the crying of the souls which were slain for the Word of God. These dead are capable of crying even though they do not have a physical body. God Himself, and the host of spirits, are capable of calling, sometimes even with a loud voice (Rev 14:5).
A sleeping person is not dead but moves in the unseen world only. In the spirit he is able to walk, to struggle, to have fear, even to make long journeys, traveling in the spirit. When a Christian dies he merely ceases to be able to function on earth. He falls asleep and lives on in the unseen Kingdom of God.
When a person is Born Again, he rises to a new life. To him applies: 'Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead.' This should make it clear that the invisible component of man, the inner man, does not die a second time to be resurrected a second time at the coming of Jesus. Jesus said to the faithful of the New Covenant they would never see or taste death (John 8:51-52), and those who believe in Him shall live, even though they die, and whoever lives and believes in Him shall never die (John 11:25-26).
Once we have risen from spiritual death, and persevere in faith, we will not die to fall victim to Death and Hades. We belong to the body of Christ and have, just as that body, eternal life only. When the believer dies, (when his soul is separated from his body), he will be at home with the Lord (1Cor 5:8). Death no longer has dominion over him because he is united with Jesus Christ, the Head of the body, who has conquered death (Romans 6:9). On earth he lived in the power of the Holy Spirit, the same Spirit who raised Jesus from the dead. He who is united with such a Spirit will not enter death and neither will the Spirit abandon man when he dies. Timothy 1:10 says that Christ Jesus abolished death and has brought to light life and immortality through the gospel. That means He has done away with death.
God said to Adam: 'In the day that you eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil you shall die.' For us, however, there is a Tree of Life, and those who eat of it will live forever. 'I am the bread of life. If any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever, and those who eat it shall not die' (John 6:48-51).
The most well-known text in the bible is John 3:16: 'For God so loved the world that He gave his only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.' Because of this eternal life the inner man is able to go on, to persevere for ever. This life cannot be damaged by death, for it is sustained by the Holy Spirit. It is life of a high quality.
In 2Cor 5:1-10 Paul compares our death with the destruction of the earthly tent. He shows that even then the faithful have a building from God in heaven, an eternal house. The apostle longed for the moment of taking up a dwellin
g place in that heavenly house. It is a heavenly home, that is, a purely spiritual body. It functions in the unseen world only.What then is the resurrection of the dead? Does it mean that the graves are opened and the tombstones lifted and dead people suddenly arise? But then how about those who died ages ago whose graves have vanished? How about the martyrs who were burned, their ashes strewn out in the river? The answer is in 1Cor 15:35-49: 'But some one will ask, 'How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come? You foolish man! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body which is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. But God gives it a body as He has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body.'
The kernel has the invisible life in itself and this life is the beginning of the new plant. The kernel does not produce a kernel, but a new plant which will produce new kernels later. The new life starts at regeneration and it grows just like a plant develops from the seed. The seed is not made alive, it dies. But that which was its life develops into a new plant.
In the same way the physical body that dies is not made alive again but decomposes in the same way as the outside of the kernel. The inner life develops into a new appearance, different from the seed, but in keeping with the laws of life that were hidden in it. From every seed an individual body develops. It may be a tree, a shrub, or some kind of corn or any other kind of plant. The plant that develops may be compared with the spiritual house. The seed that vanished decomposes to dust, picture of the natural body, but the plant itself develops in another atmosphere where there is light and air and sun.
In Romans 8:11 Paul says that the Holy Spirit, or the majesty of the Father, raised Jesus from the dead. The Holy Spirit enabled Him to leave Hades, and it deserves our attention that Jesus' humiliated body had not decayed and also shared in the glorification. Jesus is not only the model of all who will rise in a spiritual body, but also of those who, physically alive, will meet the Lord at his coming and whose bodies are changed in a point of time. Their mortal bodies have been swallowed up in the victory of the spiritual body. (1Cor 15:54).
Through baptism in Holy Ghost we are brought in a new situation by Jesus. Our spiritual body is baptized (immersed) in, and therefore covered with and surrounded by the Spirit of God. A new unity comes into being, a more intense relationship, with more and farther reaching possibilities for fellowship and inspiration. To us the baptism in holy Ghost means “being where Jesus is” (John 14:3). Our life is from that moment on “hid with Christ in God” (Col 3:3). That which surrounds and fills Jesus also surrounds us and gradually fills us.
When the Lord returns those who slept in Christ will be raised, they will arise first. Their spiritual body is raised (1Cor 15:44), but their physical body has long returned to dust and will not be raised.
Resurrection is a new life and work in the unseen world. Those who have fallen asleep have rested from their labors, but at a sign of the Most High they will arise and take up their work. The power of God gives substance to their spiritual bodies, giving it flesh and bones, similar to that of the glorified Lord. At all times, however the spiritual body remains spiritual, that is subjected to spiritual laws only, not to earthly laws. For that reason it is not confined in time or place; this body cannot be localized or entered into a time-scheme.
Life in the body of resurrection is a mystery but I will try to draw a weak comparison. We know that water vapor is invisible. It is subject to the physical laws for gases. Water vapor is even able to penetrate walls. Under certain circumstances, however, it is transformed and becomes visible as water, fog, hoarfrost, snow or hail, which are all subjected to the laws for solids or liquids. The Lord's immortal body was able to penetrate doors but at the same time Jesus said: 'See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have' (Luke 24:39). When Jesus ascended to heaven a cloud 'took Him out of their sight.' Now He is in the heavenly places only, although the possibility exists for our Lord to appear in a visible shape (Mark 16:12). This is what happened to John at Patmos, and to Paul, who is told that he is appointed 'to see the Just One and to hear a voice from his mouth' (Acts 22:14).
During his life on earth a Christian moves in two worlds. In his physical body he is on earth, 'away from the Lord' in a foreign country but his spiritual body is in Christ, that is in Christ's body. When he dies he is detached from the natural sphere and dwells with the Lord only. When Jesus returns to earth He is accompanied by the saints who have fallen asleep. When He appears they will appear with Him. The Christians who are alive left until the coming of the Lord. will be changed in a moment, 'in the twinkling of an eye,' and their perishable bodies will be transformed into immortal and glorified bodies. In these bodies they will be caught up to meet the Lord to join the saints who have already risen (1Thess 4:16-17). Then the time has come that the 'planting of the Lord' will be functioning anew and bear new fruit. These 'trees of life,' the bible says, will bear fruit twelve times, yielding it each month, and their leaves (the gifts of the spirit) are for the healing of the nations.
In the verses you quoted, 2Cor 5:1-2, Paul mentioned the spiritual house we have. This house is a part of the invisible world and therefore eternal. We have this building now, Paul says, and we will go on having it even when our visible, earthly tent is destroyed. This spiritual body is made up of the unseen spirit and soul.
The apostle indicates, however, that this heavenly tabernacle has to be clothed, lest we remain naked. He even says: “So, that by putting it on we may not be found naked.” So we have to be clothed with another veil or garment, this time a garment of righteousness instead of a veil of iniquity. This garment is gradually made up of our righteous deeds as we do them, just as in the opposite case the garment of iniquity was made up of evil works we did.
In Rev 19:7-8 we read these words about the church of Jesus Christ in her final stage: “His Wife (Bride) had made herself ready; it was granted to her to be clothed with fine linen, white and pure – for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints. This white spiritual garment represents our stature in the heavenly places. Those who return with Jesus all have this garment of fine linen, white and pure, to cover their spiritual bodies. Without this garment we cannot form a part of the temple of God, for it is a priestly garment. Without this garment we will not be able to sit on the throne with Jesus Christ, for it is a royal garment.
The Old Testament faithful were unable to weave this garment, for they lacked the baptism of the Holy Spirit and even now there are many Christians who have not received this first gift of God and thus they remain naked. The fine linen serves to guard our intimate relationship from the eyes of outsiders, just as the unity of a man with his wife in marriage also remains a 'mystery', a hidden matter.
To be In Christ' means that the believer is a living cell of he body of Christ. When one dies in Him this means that one lives on in His body even if the earthly body has been given up. So, the mystery of this body of Christ is its oneness though it consists of various members who have each a resurrection body being formed in the process (washing) of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5b-7).
During his life on earth the believer is in two worlds: the visible and the invisible. When he leaves his dwelling place in the physical bo
dy, soul and spirit take up a dwelling with the Lord (2Cor 5:8). At the call of the archangel, those who seep receive a resurrected body. Although it consists of the elements of the earth, nevertheless this body is completely subject to the spiritual laws, for 'It is raised a spiritual body” (1Cor 15:44). Soul and spirit then receive a suitable spiritual body. This (first) resurrection starts at regeneration, when the redeemed person spiritually rises from death. It is completed when those who sleep in Christ also receive a new body.After the resurrection of these deceased believers the transfiguration takes place of the faithful that are still on earth. The sons of God “who are alive, left until the coming of the Lord”, will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. The mortal body then becomes immortal and also similar to the body of the glorified Lord.
Revelation 8:2: “Then I saw seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to, them”. At every blast of the trumpets the gulf between the faithful and the unfaithful church is revealed more clearly. The children of God develop into sons, but those who are unclean become still more so. At the last trumpet the separation is completed and the true church is taken up in glory, that means, united with the resurrected dead. In their bodies the sons of God then enter into the heavenly realms. After the inner man they were in heaven already, functioning after the laws of the Spirit; now their bodies are changed in such a way as to become subject to the spirit. The struggle between flesh and spirit is then finished for good. The walk of faith in heaven is then changed into a walk by sight.
Concerning the kings and priests of Revelation which are clothed in fine linen and who are resurrected at the first resurrection:
It is not their natural bodies which rises, for in the case of most of them the natural body has long returned to dust. In ICor 15:44 the apostle states clearly that our spiritual body is raised. This means that our spirit and soul will be clothed with the garment of righteousness and enabled to manifest themselves in the natural world, yet remaining able to withdraw into the unseen world.So, having stated all the above:
At the Lord's coming there are three groups who receive a spiritual body. First there are the dead who died in Christ; they will rise and receive a new body of resurrection.
The second group is the witnesses from Revelation 11, who were conformed to the death of Jesus and whose dead bodies will be raised. They, however, still have a mortal body which will afterwards be changed in a moment, this then is a glorified body as Jesus has.
The third group is those who remain alive, whose bodies will be changed in a moment, without dying.Finally, Revelation 14:14, “Then I looked, and lo, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand.”
I mentioned something about this verse to 'HeIsComing…' in an earlier Post:
John saw a white cloud. This image reminds us of the silver-hued or opal morning clouds in the Middle East. The summits of the mountains are like large rocks and islands in this sea of vapor. The rising sun shines through the floating mists, which soon disappear in the heat of its rays. On the ground the refreshing dew of the night is left behind, giving life and fertility to the earth. This mass of clouds is a cloud, or mist of dew, in the heat of harvest (Isaiah 18:4). In his poetical language David called these splendid towers of cloud “the wings of morning” (Psalm 139:9). The second coming of the Lord is repeatedly pictured as a coming on (with or in) the clouds of the sky. In Palestine one begins to understand that the splendid silver cumuli, filling the air in early morning, are the image of this glory.The meaning is clear. A vapor arose from the sea and clouds have been formed. In the Bible the sea is the image of the spiritual world, as the earth is the image of the visible, material world. As a drop of water evaporates from the sea and rises up into the air, so at his regeneration man is transplanted into the heavenly places. He is made to live there, and starts to function in the Kingdom of God (Ephesians 2:6). The image is clear. The water, the invisible inner man of the heart, rises up by the power of the Holy Spirit, which is the influence of God, the Sun of Righteousness. In the heavenly places the drops form a cloud. The cloud consists of millions of drops; it is the image of the church of Jesus Christ. In the invisible world the waters, the spirits, are separated. All religions on earth are from below. Only those who belong to Jesus are from above. Jesus told the religious leaders of his day: “You are from below. I am from above; you are of this world; I am not of this world (John 8:23).
At his death a child of God is unbound from the sphere of the earth after the body, but his soul and spirit, the inner, invisible man, are eternal. This inner man remains in the body of the Lord, that is in the cloud. The Son of Man is united with the cloud just as, in another image, He is the head united with his body. On His head still is the golden crown of life mentioned in chapter 6:2.
When the Bible says that in the latter days Jesus will come with the clouds of heaven, it means that He returns with His church. As at daybreak the morning clouds descend on the earth as a dew of heaven, so in the endtimes our Lord returns to earth with His church. This descending shows that the believer's inner man receives a new body, enabling him to function in the visible world. 1Corinthians 15:44 says that a spiritual body is raised. To be raised means that by an outside force a living person is put back into the earthly sphere. At the resurrection from the dead, soul and spirit (the spiritual body) are raised to be clothed with a body consisting of elements from the earth. Only then can the spiritual body, the inner man, rise to take up his work in the visible world. The same idea is expressed when from the world heavenly Jerusalem descends to the visible world of the earth. Our verse here shows us the moment when the dead receive their new bodies and are to be united with those who are still on earth in a mortal body. This is the time of the seventh or last trumpet. Those who were left are now changed in a moment. “For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first, then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord” (1Thessalonians 5:15-17).
When someone dies not 'in Christ', that is, not belonging to the church, he remains united with the sea. For his spirit did not rise from the sea towards the clouds. His soul and spirit then disappear in the Abyss, the prison, in which also are the fallen, evil angels. We read that at the resurrection, the sea -not the earth- gives up its dead: “And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them” (20:13). Sea and Hades are synonymous, while Death indicates the power which governs Hades. Now we also understand that, once this cloud has descended from heaven onto the earth, there will be no more sea or night or mountains to be found any more. So the evil powers draw a man's spirit and soul towards the Bottomless Pit, while the power of the Holy Spirit takes the children of God towards the cloud.
Anyways, those are some considerations on the matter of “sleep of soul”. I earnestly hope they can be found useful by those who might be searching for some clarification or whatever.
I did not want to go into greater depth regarding the issues of the 'spiritual/natural body” here as
this Post is rather lengthly enough as it is. Other comments made by Poster 'Adam' where he stated, “No doubt our bodies will be new bodies. [2Cor 5.1]” did not escape my attention either but I don't wish to flood this Forum with my views and opinions. Everything has its time and place.Hi dunno,
Ps 115 tell us the final destiny of man is on earth as is shown in Rev 21 when the heavenly Jerusalem comes back to the renewed earth. Do you agree? Then if so have men been in heaven and then return to earth?Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 29 2006,03:56) Hi dunno,
Ps 115 tell us the final destiny of man is on earth as is shown in Rev 21 when the heavenly Jerusalem comes back to the renewed earth. Do you agree? Then if so have men been in heaven and then return to earth?
Hi! NickUmmm, forgive me … but it is 4:05 in the early morning here in Toronto, Canada … so, I am wrestling to remain sufficently alert to properly address your question. Therefore, I will be leaving the affixing of Scriptural references to the points I am about to make to you own recollection/rememberance.
The first thing I might say is that the initial posture of your question hints at an inadequate understanding of the term 'heaven'. To put it simply: The Kingdom of Heaven should be thought of in terms of a climate or atmosphere … perhaps, the term 'dimension' would afford a more favorable understanding.
The Kingdom of Heaven has two centers … the Kingdom of Light and the Kingdom of Darkness … aka: the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Death. The Kingdom of Light is ruled by the Spirit of Life while the Kingdom of Darkness is ruled by the spirit(s) of Death. By our confession of faith in the saving work of Jesus, the powers of Death and Hades forfeit their legal entitlement/ownership of us and we are subsequently transferred (after our unseen inner man) from the Kingdom of Darkness to the Kingdom of Light. This is in keeping with the Gospel of Repentance first preached by John the Baptist.
Yet, there is the Gospel of the Kingdom. This is not the Gospel about Jesus … rather it is the Gospel OF Jesus. It is the same Gospel which Jesus preached and the same Gospel which His disciples preached and also the very same Gospel of the Kingdom which will be “preached throughout the whole world and then the end will come”.
The reason I mention the above is because I am reluctant to answer your question in the terms you have addressed it … example: “so have men been in heaven”. The question must first take into account what exactly YOUR definition is concerning the term 'heaven'. Because I am unsure of that, I am unable to properly answer your question.
You also asked the additional question, “Do men return to earth?”. Yes, as a matter of fact they do. Is that not clearly evident with how I presented the narrative in the Post where I explained that when Jesus appears/returns His faithful also appear with him?
Admittedly, I did not pursue this latter matter at length with the Post. If you wish, I would be happy to perhaps discuss these related subjects during my visits here.
By the way:
Here is a Link to a rather nice Flash Movie:
Metamorphosis Flash Movieand,
Here is a Link to a rather interesting article concerning the metamorphosis of man:
Article -The Metamorphosis Of Man-
[This 'private' WebSite is merely a temporary avenue which myself and a few friends have been using to share docs and audio files while we await the 'public' TPI Site to re-open after being recently shut down by a fire.
If you should choose to listen to the accompanying StreamingAudio File linked to the Article, I should first apologize for the poor quality sound.]Hi dunno,
The article you posted raises some questions.
To start with;
How is man born again? By and intellectual decision? Where is this written?
What is the treasure in our earthenware bodies? Spiritual bodies or the Spirit of God?
Is not the Spiritual body put over the perishble natural body at resurrection or rapture?Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 29 2006,05:29) Hi dunno,
The article you posted raises some questions.
To start with;
How is man born again? By and intellectual decision? Where is this written?
What is the treasure in our earthenware bodies? Spiritual bodies or the Spirit of God?
Is not the Spiritual body put over the perishble natural body at resurrection or rapture?
Hi! NickThank you for your reply.
It is indeed a good thing that we are able to share and discuss those things concerning our wonderful Salvation.Firstly, I would like to say that I have no idea what may have prompted you to ask, “How is man born again?” The answer can be simply put: man is Born Again by and through the saving, restoring and resurrection power of God.
I was especially perplexed by your adjacent question, “By an intellectual decision?”. This can can be more fully answered by immediately saying that we should not confine ourselves too narrowly when describing the mind; it is functional in a wide area and has a broad function.
What does God's word tell us about the mind and its functioning in our life? The Greek roots that are used to describe this ability, are 'nous', 'dianoia' and 'sunesis'. 'Nous' is used to indicate the ability to think, to conceive, to comprehend, to gain understanding, to be able to judge, to determine, to ascertain, to decide. The word 'dianoia' holds the ability to consider, reflect and meditate, while the word 'sunesis' is used to indicate the possibility of understanding by ‘adding up', by combining. The mind allows us to apply line, direction and structure in the thoughts that come from our own heart.
The mind can determine the course in the life of a man. Paul says of the gentiles, that they walk “in the vanity of their mind” (nous, Eph.4:17). Romans 1:28 says that God gave them over to a reprobate mind (nous), to those things which are not convenient. While the “nous” with man is created to have feeling for the things of God, with those who are alienated from Him this works the other way around. The gentiles lost their taste for that which is good; in their thinking, as in their mind (nous) and conscience is defiled (Tit.1:15). They have their understanding darkened (Eph.4:18) and alienated from the life of God. It is obvious that this alienation comes about by the effectual working by the spirits of darkness. Consequently, wrongly conceived desires no longer can be corrected and sin can no longer be prevented. A downward spiral begins with consequences like: confusion, disharmony, bondages, deformation and transformation; they end up more and more remote from God.
By the preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ man is confronted with an entirely different way of thinking and living. It determines him to the original intention of God with man and to the possibilities that are offered to him in and through Jesus Christ in order to start thinking, speaking, acting and living in accordance with God's will and goal after all.
An intellectual understanding of what Jesus has done for us is an important factor; but on its own it is not enough. The ability to believe must also be applied. When the word calls us in Romans 12:2 to come to a renewing of the mind, this also includes a renewed functioning of the mind. The Bible speaks about a renewing of “nous”, that you may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
If we desire the the intents of God to really take shape in our existence, than we must first accept the work of Jesus for our personal life in faith, and accept and recognize Him as Lord (John 1:12). Through conversion and rebirth a new situation comes into being. The bible can be read and understood with different eyes; an enlightenment comes into being in thinking and understanding and therefore also in living and working.
It is not for nothing that Paul writes in Ephesians 1:18 about having the “eyes of your heart enlightened” and/or as another versions says it. “the eyes of your understanding being enlightened”. Later in Ephesians 4:23 it speaks about being renewed in the spirit of your mind (nous). This all perfectly complements each other and indicates the proper place of the mind in the process of our renewal.
As with all abilities, the mind does not have an isolated position; it functions together with the other abilities. The mind cannot function on its own and detach itself (as it were) from the other abilities.
In order to make the mind fully usable, and therefore become fully applicable for the things of God's Kingdom, it is necessary that we detach from all old ways of thinking and fully renew our minds. This can only occur whern people are taught properly from the word of God with regard to the plan of God with our lives. Through this we can become filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding (Col 1:9) and that we attain the full knowledge of the son of God (Eph 4:13).
Peter's call to “gird up the loins of our mind” (1Pet 1:13) adds a new dimension to the discussion we are having here. Much more is meant here than just “using your mind”. However true and important this might be, the apostle's concern here is higher and concerning deeper affairs. With “loins” the bible often indicates a source area from which new things originate. For example, Genesis 35:11: “kings shall come out of your loins”. By “loins of our mind” Peter therefore means the core, the deepest source of our mind, from where all considerations and intellectual conclusions come: our heart.
Because the Lord has direct access to our heart after our baptism in holy Ghost, the possibility comes into being (for those of us who live consciously from a relationship with Jesus) to “gird up” the loins, the source area of our mind, with Him. Thus, we are enabled (in the deepest sense) to “put on the Lord Jesus Christ” (Rom 13:14). Furthermore, from the most early beginning of forming our thoughts, we are able to consciously develop, reason, discern, combine and draw conclusions in fellowship with Him. Our minds therefore may be “connected” onto the mind of the Master. Together with Him we may (once again) bring order, line and structure in all that comes at us and crosses our minds. This is the true “soberness” which becomes possible by girding up the loins of our mind.
Because our heart is the seat of all our inner abilities, we must safeguard “the loins of our mind” as it directly affects all other inner abilities. This also applies to the source area of our faith and our strength, of our feeling and our conscience, or our consciousness and our imagination, etcetera.
By girding up our loins (the source area of all our abilities) with truth (Eph 6:14) Christ is able to richly dwell in our hearts. Through this it also becomes possible to start believing together with Him, to realize, experience, believe… This gives us unlimited possibilities for a life in accordance with the will of God. This is the manner in which the Lord guides us each personally into all secrets of the Kingdom of God and have us partake the glory that shall be revealed (1Pet 5:1).
The Lord wants to open our understanding (Luke 24:45). After which He wants to enlighten our thinking and our mind and gird us up in the deepest core with all that is in Him. This opening of the understanding again does not stand on its own; it is connected to opening our spiritual eyes (Luke 24:31) and opening our spiritual heart (Acts 16:14).
It then becomes possible to begin fulfilling the greatest commandment: To love the Lord, our God with all our hearts and with all our souls, and with our minds, and with all our strength (Mark 12:30). All inn
er abilities will then be activated in and through our love for God.So, your question primarily deals with Mark 12:30 and, in particular, with the words “our minds”. Loving with your mind? … one would almost ask … how is that possible? Still, Jesus did not mistake Himself; He quite deliberately adds it to the sum up from Deuteronomy 6:5. By His work for us, it became possible to truly and FULLY – with all that is in us – (including our minds) to serve God in holiness and righteousness in all eternity.
So, Nick: Let us use our minds (with all that is connected to it) as well as all other inner abilities well, in our own life and for the good of the Body. Let us use all possibilities and in that way, under Jesus' leadership and in intense fellowship with Him come to a clear understanding and awareness (2Tim 2:7), to a pure awareness of the truth (2Pe 3:1). We then need not lose our control in whatever situation. We will, from the spirit and inclination like that of the Lord, with a sound mind (2Tim 1:7) and deliberately – from a controlled and composed thinking and knowing – begin to conduct ourselves. This is how we, in great dependence and obedience to Him, will appear as a man of God. Then the glorious promise from Daniel 12:3 is ours: “And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever”
Again and again I find myself repeating the fact that many of us boasting of having escaped Babylon seem to have inadvertently taken some old and tattered luggage with us. This becomes quite evident when we are having to deal with certain terminology such as, in this instance, heart and mind. In many respects, we are still preoccupied with contradictory thoughts and ideas which originate in Babylon. Just as we succeeded in opening our hearts and minds to the falsehood of the Trinity Doctrine, we must perservere even further and also seek to clarify other related matters … eg: soul and spirit … mind and heart … conscience … to name a few.
You also asked, “What is the treasure in our earthenware bodies?”. Rather than flood the Forum with another lengthly reply this day, I will attempt to Post a reply to this additional question tomorrow or thereabouts.
HI dunno,
So for you to be born again is to learn and comprehend and believe and from that moment we are born agin and as we continue to learn we are changed and renewed in our minds such that they accord with the mind of Christ?
So
We do not need to be reborn from above?
We are not all sinners?
We do not need to repent?
We do not have to be forgiven?
We do not need to appeal to God for forgiveness through water baptism?
We do not need to be baptised by Christ in the Spirit?
We do not need the example of words or actions of Paul and the apostles in Acts?We were OK all along and we just needed to grasp a few new biblical concepts and voila?
Sorry but this is a new and popular gospel that saves none.“Believe and you are saved”
It too is vanity.
Even demons believe and they too knew who the Son of God really was.Scriptural belief involves obedience to all the demands of God.
We must be reborn into the Son to find safety and into his death and resurrection.“Unless you repent you will all likewise perish”
“Why do you call me Lord, Lord, and not do what I say?”
“'Lord, Lord. Open up for us!'
But he answered
'Truly I say to you, I do not know you'”Hi dunno,
Jesus said
“Unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God”So the rebirth comes before the understanding and it does not follow it, as you suggest. Reading and studying the bible can give us some growth but the only important message we must receive is the need to seek first the kingdom so that everything else can be added to us.
He also said
“unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God”
So entry into the kingdom follows rebirth and does not precede it following human understanding as you suggest. Obey, then we can begin to see. It is the Spirit who wrote the Word and when He is reborn into us we can begin to fully grasp it.He also said
” You must be born again. The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit”
So the inner work of the Spirit is not according to the natural mind of man but the mind of God and leads us beyond our present understandings. We can be changed by the work of grace to have the mind of Christ.Paul said
” It is no longer I that liveth but Christ that liveth in me”He was led by the Spirit of God who did the work of teaching him from within and transformed his mind and heart according to the Spirit of the Word. It is all the work of the grace of God following obedience to the demands of God. It is not our works according to our intellectual efforts.
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