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Hello all,
Just a quick background so you know where I'm coming from. I've been a Christian for 20 years, all of those years as a member of a few Southern Baptist Churches. I'm sure you can guess what SB believes as far as the Trinity goes. However, I've been bothered about this since the day I first heard it in my early Christian walk but just came to accept it and was not concerned because to me, it was not a sticking point. I knew what was required for salvation, and Trinity did not fit in with that equation.
Anyway, as of late, I've come to challenge this doctrine. I've read many, many different works on the net, including here, and I've actually made it through 89 pages of the Trinity thread. Plus, I have also been very Berean in my approach, checking everything with Scripture, not just someone's posted opinion.
I've always just considered the Trinity (and Oneness) as merely a feeble attempt to escape Christianity being labeled a polytheistic religion.
If this is the case, how then can we refute the appearance (at least) that Christianity is a polytheistic way of life? The Bible clearly states in several places that Jesus is God — not the Almighty God, God the Father — but God nonetheless. Automatically there are two Gods then: God the Father, God the Son. This is what the Trinity teaches (with the addition of the Holy Spirit) but where I disagree is the equality of the Father and Son. Again, by claiming equality, they supposedly avoid polytheism.
C.S. Lewis (who I've only read slightly) made a statement in “Mere Christianity” that is so simple but so hard to refute (paraphrasing here): If the Father is God, and Jesus is God's Son, then that which is born of God is God.
Now, this means that we are using the term God as we do Man. I am Man, my son, who came from a union of myself and his mother, is also Man.
Yet one difference exists if you consider Christianity versus any other polytheistic religion: the many gods in those religions all serve different purposes. But the Father and the Son have very little in difference because so much authority was afforded to Jesus via the Father. Yet there is an obvious level of authority because Jesus can only act on the Will of the Father, not his own.
What are your thoughts?
kejonn,
I believe you have hit the nail on the head. Jehovah 's Son is as His Father and we are to be as our Spiritual Father.
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
WHAT! We can't be as God! That is what Satan says and the church teaches. Why can't we be as our Father. Through His Spirit he has given us that power AS the Son therefore we are like the Father. How are we to do even greater works than Jesus?
Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Both the Father and His Son and we who are born again have the same Spirit.
Jesus being the elder is our God. This is what the Father has said.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
When the first born is finished with the plan of the Father then the Son will turn everything He has done over to the Father.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
IHN&L,
Ken
Hi and welcome kj,
There is nowhere written God the Son. But others are called gods by the Spirit of God Who wrote scripture through men. Do you believe in the god of this world? What does that mean? If a being is called a god does that demand we must worship that being? Or is it just to accept that Satan is real and just called a god?
I agree that the fear of polytheism is the attempted justification by some to say Christ is another aspect of God.
But it leads to a worse problem – denying that Jesus is the true Son of God.Thanks…I think
. What I mean is thanks for the reply which was good stuff, but it doesn't really answer the question of whether or not Christianity is polytheistic. Wikipedia says of polytheism:Polytheism is belief in or worship of multiple gods or deities. The belief in many gods does not necessarily preclude the belief in an all-powerful all-knowing supreme being, as the ruler and parent (often king and fathers) of gods and mankind.
In polytheistic belief, gods are perceived as complex personages of greater or lesser status, with individual skills, needs, desires and histories. These gods are not always portrayed in mythology as being omnipotent or omniscient; rather, they are often portrayed as similar to humans (anthropomorphic) in their personality traits, but with additional individual powers, abilities, knowledge or perceptions.
It is my opinion that the doctrines of Trinity and Oneness try to reason away polytheism in hopes to avoid the thought of Christianity being labeled as such. I must admit, I see why this would be so, and why the Trinity ever came about.
But it all boils down to who Jesus is: if he is created and not born, he is more like an angel or a human with authority just below that of God. Yet if he is born of God the father, he is God (see above for the relation). Not the Almighty God, but God in classification.
I do not believe Jesus is created. But if we hold to the belief that he is begotten of God — derived directly from God — then he has the status of deity.
I recently communicated with someone about who I believed Jesus was according to scripture. This was someone who thought I was being lead into heresy over my denial of the Trinity. This person stated that to deny the deity of Christ would lessen his value as the atonement for our sins.
My answer to him, which I admit I'm not completely comfortable with, is that Jesus is in a classification all his own. He is not created so he is not an angel. He is not eternal because he came from Yahweh and to come from requires that Yahweh be before. This could be outside time and thus eternal in a sense, but it still means that Yahweh was the first making the Word (Jesus) the second.
So Jesus is not the Almighty God and he is not an angel. Therefore, what is he? My answer to this was that he is what the Bible says he is: the Word, the Son of God, the Lamb,the Prince of Peace. In saying this, I attributed to him a unique classification that could not be easily defined accorded to any definable word.
Yet, it still brings us back around to trying to decribe what Christianity is: polytheistic because there is Yahweh and Yahshua, both God in classifcation but unequal in authority, or monotheistic because we only view Yahweh as Almighty God and Yahshua as something less but more than angels or men. The second still does not quite reconcile the argument of polytheistic vs. monotheistic.
I know we need not be concerned with labels, but the fact is, as man, we will find that others will do that. They will need to understand what Christianity truly is. That, to me, is the reason why the Trinity and Oneness doctrines were developed.
Sorry Nick, my first reply was to kenrch, you just happened to reply while I was replying to him. Where is the ability to edit your posts? Oh well. This then is a reply to you. You said:
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 30 2007,01:56) Hi and welcome kj,
There is nowhere written God the Son. But others are called gods by the Spirit of God Who wrote scripture through men. Do you believe in the god of this world? What does that mean? If a being is called a god does that demand we must worship that being? Or is it just to accept that Satan is real and just called a god?
I agree that the fear of polytheism is the attempted justification by some to say Christ is another aspect of God.
But it leads to a worse problem – denying that Jesus is the true Son of God.
I'm aware that there is no mention of God the Son. By this “title” I merely attribute to him the classification of God. He was called God many times in many places, and I believe this is why so it is not so easy to fully understand what is going on in the relationship with the Father and Son.The easiest verse I can give you to support this is Isaiah 9:6 (NASB)
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
While I fully submit that he is not the Almighty God here, the Father, he is called the Mighty God. (Sidenote: why in the first 89 pages of the Trinity thread has no one touched the phrase “Eternal Father”? To me that is holds even more weight than “Mighty God”).
None of this stuff about other gods, people being called gods, all with a little “g”. What about the times Jesus is called God with a big “G”? I know we need to be able to look back at the original texts to be more sure, but therein lies an issue.
So we get back to the origian question: is Christianity polytheistic?
kejonn
Quote So Jesus is not the Almighty God and he is not an angel. Therefore, what is he? My answer to this was that he is what the Bible says he is: the Word, the Son of God, the Lamb,the Prince of Peace. In saying this, I attributed to him a unique classification that could not be easily defined accorded to any definable word.
Jesus is the first born of a new creation. For me that's it! To continue to wonder won't get me any further. He is the only begotten of the Father the first born of this New Creation and New Kingdom.kenrch,
The truth is all in that statement. Very well said. However, would that be your only reply to someone who questioned you much as I have? The reason I say this is because your statement, while valid, would leave most who are questioning without an aswer.
Again, to me, this very concept is the reason Trinity and Oneness came about.
I don't ask this to throw anyone off — rather, I need to know how to reason with those who are persecuting me (even if they think they are doing it in love) because I'm questioning the Trinity. In the end, it has so much to do with how we classify Jesus because otherwise we will never really have anything that will sway die-hard Trinitarians. If we say he is a god, we need to be ready to accept that we believe in polytheism. Yes, a label, but one that doesn't quite mix well with the 1st century Jew.
KJ,
Wow! You've read through 89 pages of the Trinity thread! That is so great! You are a seeker, that is for sure.
Well, welcome! I hear myself in your first post……… I will look forward to hearing from you and what you have found over the years.
You will find this is a great venue for challenging what you *think* you know!
I love it here and have learned a lot from everyone. I'm really, really glad that you are here. God bless your life as you share the truth you know.I have to run this morning, but I'll be back later to add to the conversation.
Have a great day all. Our rain storm last night has left everything smelling like sweet perfume outside; I can't wait to go running!
Quote (kejonn @ June 30 2007,03:02) In the end, it has so much to do with how we classify Jesus because otherwise we will never really have anything that will sway die-hard Trinitarians.
Amen.Sway not only Trinitarians, but the world……
God is One, and there is not other.
Jesus is a “other.”Quote (kejonn @ June 30 2007,03:02) kenrch, The truth is all in that statement. Very well said. However, would that be your only reply to someone who questioned you much as I have? The reason I say this is because your statement, while valid, would leave most who are questioning without an aswer.
Again, to me, this very concept is the reason Trinity and Oneness came about.
I don't ask this to throw anyone off — rather, I need to know how to reason with those who are persecuting me (even if they think they are doing it in love) because I'm questioning the Trinity. In the end, it has so much to do with how we classify Jesus because otherwise we will never really have anything that will sway die-hard Trinitarians. If we say he is a god, we need to be ready to accept that we believe in polytheism. Yes, a label, but one that doesn't quite mix well with the 1st century Jew.
kejonn,Well brother we can't make the horse drink can we? We have scripture that says the Father says His Son is God. We have scripture that says the Son has a kingdom. We have scripture that says the Son (when finished) will turn over His kingdom to His Father that the Father would be all in all.
Where is the third person in all of this? To me the third person (who according to the trinity has no name) is the key. The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit that is in Jesus and all of the Father's children. The Holy Spirit is not a separate person.
If you lie to the Holy Spirit then you have lied to God and not man.
Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thy heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Act 5:4 While it remained, did it not remain thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thy power? How is it that thou hast conceived this thing in thy heart? thou has not lied unto men, but unto God.Certianly the Holy Spirit IS God. The Holy Spirit is the Father, Son, Apostles and all who are born again. My spirit is not another person. Why would the Father's Spirit be a different person. We are created in His Image are we not? The mere fact that the Holy Spirit has no name of it's own should tell us that the spirit is not a third person. The Father has a name, His Son has a name, but for some reason the so called third person has no name yet we are to baptize in it's name. Surely if you baptize in the Father and Son or as the apostles did just the Son then you have baptized in His Spirit also.
IHN&L,
Ken
Quote (acertainchap @ June 30 2007,06:49) Actually, Christianity isn't polytheistic.
Why do you believe this to be so? Do you believe in the Trinity, Oneness, or that Jesus is simply not a deity?Thanks!
Quote (acertainchap @ June 30 2007,07:00) I do believe in the trinity but that all three: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one, as well.
The Father and Son are one in the SPIRIT. God is Spirit, John 4:24.Quote (kenrch @ June 30 2007,06:34)
kejonn,Well brother we can't make the horse drink can we? We have scripture that says the Father says His Son is God. We have scripture that says the Son has a kingdom. We have scripture that says the Son (when finished) will turn over His kingdom to His Father that the Father would be all in all.
Where is the third person in all of this? To me the third person (who according to the trinity has no name) is the key. The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit that is in Jesus and all of the Father's children. The Holy Spirit is not a separate person.
If you lie to the Holy Spirit then you have lied to God and not man.
Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thy heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Act 5:4 While it remained, did it not remain thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thy power? How is it that thou hast conceived this thing in thy heart? thou has not lied unto men, but unto God.Certianly the Holy Spirit IS God. The Holy Spirit is the Father, Son, Apostles and all who are born again. My spirit is not another person. Why would the Father's Spirit be a different person. We are created in His Image are we not? The mere fact that the Holy Spirit has no name of it's own should tell us that the spirit is not a third person. The Father has a name, His Son has a name, but for some reason the so called third person has no name yet we are to baptize in it's name. Surely if you baptize in the Father and Son or as the apostles did just the Son then you have baptized in His Spirit also.
IHN&L,
Ken
Yes, but 720+ odd forum pages say otherwise. In any case, we know that we cannot stop at the Duality because God likes to work in threes, right?
And its less about leading a horse to water than it is getting others to not view you as a heretic. I know it should not matter as we are not to be man-pleasers but fellowship on the Internet cannot replace face-to-face fellowship and most will tell you that they receive much persecution when they start to deny the Trinity. Perhaps you advocate a “Don't ask, don't tell policy”?
I am convinced the reason this is the case is that most Christians do not want to be labeled as polytheists and that is why it becomes so easy to swallow the Trinity.
And thus far, no one has given me good reason outside of the Trinity or Oneness to deny being polytheistic. It is still early in the thread however
.Quote (acertainchap @ June 30 2007,07:00) I do believe in the trinity but that all three: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one, as well.
Thanks, acertainchap. Perhaps I should clarify that I would like those who don't hold to the doctines of Trinity or Oneness to explain whether or not Christianity is polytheistic.I read Kenrch's and remembered that the Father and Son are one in the Spirit. That's why I changed my post so swiftly. Sry:D
Quote (kejonn @ June 30 2007,07:11) Quote (kenrch @ June 30 2007,06:34)
kejonn,Well brother we can't make the horse drink can we? We have scripture that says the Father says His Son is God. We have scripture that says the Son has a kingdom. We have scripture that says the Son (when finished) will turn over His kingdom to His Father that the Father would be all in all.
Where is the third person in all of this? To me the third person (who according to the trinity has no name) is the key. The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit that is in Jesus and all of the Father's children. The Holy Spirit is not a separate person.
If you lie to the Holy Spirit then you have lied to God and not man.
Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thy heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Act 5:4 While it remained, did it not remain thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thy power? How is it that thou hast conceived this thing in thy heart? thou has not lied unto men, but unto God.Certianly the Holy Spirit IS God. The Holy Spirit is the Father, Son, Apostles and all who are born again. My spirit is not another person. Why would the Father's Spirit be a different person. We are created in His Image are we not? The mere fact that the Holy Spirit has no name of it's own should tell us that the spirit is not a third person. The Father has a name, His Son has a name, but for some reason the so called third person has no name yet we are to baptize in it's name. Surely if you baptize in the Father and Son or as the apostles did just the Son then you have baptized in His Spirit also.
IHN&L,
Ken
Yes, but 720+ odd forum pages say otherwise. In any case, we know that we cannot stop at the Duality because God likes to work in threes, right?
And its less about leading a horse to water than it is getting others to not view you as a heretic. I know it should not matter as we are not to be man-pleasers but fellowship on the Internet cannot replace face-to-face fellowship and most will tell you that they receive much persecution when they start to deny the Trinity. Perhaps you advocate a “Don't ask, don't tell policy”?
I am convinced the reason this is the case is that most Christians do not want to be labeled as polytheists and that is why it becomes so easy to swallow the Trinity.
And thus far, no one has given me good reason outside of the Trinity or Oneness to deny being polytheistic. It is still early in the thread however
.
kejonn,Mat 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Mat 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
If I were the only one who believes the truth I wouldn't care if anyone didn't want to fellowship with me because of my beliefs.
I consider all who believe Jesus to be the Son of God and died for our sins to be brethren. Including the trinty group, However that's not the way they see it, right? How can you be a child of God following the Son and not love the brethren?
If you follow love then truth will follow but if you condem someone because of doctrine then to me you need to repent.
1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
Yes, but 720+ odd forum pages say otherwise. In any case, we know that we cannot stop at the Duality because God likes to work in threes, right?
Where does it say that? Consider all who are in Christ.Relax brother God is in control of His children. Sooner or later the truth comes out, now weather one can swollow their pride is another matter.
Sounds like you have to choose between the truth God has shown you and your friends.
May the Spirit of Truth guide you,
Ken
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