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Quote (acertainchap @ June 30 2007,08:45) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 30 2007,08:41) Quote (kejonn @ June 30 2007,08:36) Not3in1, The reason I'm asking for Trinitarians only is because I do not want this thread to denigrate into whether or not the Trinity is true or not. That thread already exists.
By posting this thread, I'm challenging Trinitarians to rethink whether or not this is a necessary belief. I think that, like my pastor, some feel it is necessary for true salvation and I am challenging them to back that belief up. If they cannot, it will help them to not persecute those who do not hold to the belief.
Well, brother, good luck with that! Most of the threads boil down to whether the Trinity is true or not! Ha! We can't help it, it's where it goes.Plus, if you have a site just for Trinitarians and YOU (who have admitted that you are not sure of this doctrine) are trying to convince THEM……you will be eaten alive! Trust me.
This site has a few very well spoken, and learned Trinitarians. They would die for their faith, I'm certain. So, unless you are certain about your faith, I wouldn't attempt to convince someone else. Instead, I would sit back and learn along with the rest of us!
Do you believe in the “trinity?”
Hi Chap,I like your new Avatar!
Yes, I believe that there is a Trinity doctrine that exists. However, I have not been able to find the teaching specifically in the Bible. The teaching can be found when you cut one scripture from one part of the Bible (like where it says, “us”) and scriptures from another part of the Bible and put them together…….then you can go, “See, there is the Trinity!”
But I do not believe this is what God wants us to do. He wants us to believe him when he says he is the only true God, and beside him there is no other God. If you do that, you will find other explainations for the verses that seem to trouble you and others.
Quote (kejonn @ June 30 2007,08:20) The reason I asked this is because my pastor knows that I have been questioning the validity of the Trinity. I recently withdrew from singing in the choir because I did not feel I could give full glory to God as a praise leader until I resolved this in my heart. Here are some of his statements: My first reaction was, “Is he serious?”
Kejonn [not my real name BTW], you are moving into grave doctrinal error. What you are saying has tremendous implications. I do not accept the doctrine of the Trinity without having looked into, nor do most people, as you assume. The doctrine of the Trinity is foundational to biblical Christianity. It is true that God has not changed. I would suggest that the tri-unity of God is seen even in Genesis with the statement “let US make man in our own image”.I would like to provide you with some resources to balance wherever you are getting this heretical theology. To me, the Deity of Christ and the Trinity strikes at the heart of who Jesus is, and on his capacity to be an atoning sacrifice. I would go so far as to say that you can’t deny the Deity of Christ and truly be a biblical believer.
In my response to him, I gave several verses I believed refuted the Trinity, including the one that really slams it, John 17:3. I did not pursue it much further because I do not want to stir up his heart and mind too much because he pastors a church of 350+ people. My reasoning for this is that I did not want him to be at conflict with this until I was sure in myself. I am fairly certain that he has not studied the Trinity as I have and that I would overwhelm him with verses that put it in serious doubt.
The one thing I did want to say to him though is in regards to his last statement, and the reason why I posted this thread. If belief in the Trinity is necessary for salvation (which I do not agree with), why does he not include that in the Gospel messages he preaches? Why do most churches not ask you about it when you join? Why do you never hear it mentioned in any “sinners prayer”? In other words, if it is so necessary, how many think they have salvation because they merely believed in their heart that they were sinners that needed to repent and then believed on Christ as savior and Lord?
I think you get my meaning here.
Hi KJ,
This was you less than a year ago.
Then you met towshab.My answer to the OP's question is…
No.To be saved and be forgiven of your sins you need to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and ask him to come into your life and forgive your of your sins. Then turn from sin, and thus live for GOD from that point forward. (Of course in order to do this you obviously have to believe…which means you need to have faith in order to believe)
After you do this…it's most probable that you are going to want to be baptized in some fashion.Matthew 11:27
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him].Being that it says you can't get to the father but through the son…thats pretty much a “No-Brainer”.
At some point man is going to have to “De-Bunk” all these bad doctrines and teachings to get the truth. That is a soul searching effort that most of us have to do own our own and with great effort.
Luke 11:10
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.And by seeking I would just like to say if I may…
I do not believe that means to run around and ask men of what the truth is…thats not to say that no men have the truth, albeit most at this point only have some of the truth.No…what it means I believe in my heart is that GOD wants you to read the word and study and pray with all thine heart, seeking and serving him. Then I believe if you truly do these things …you will surely see the truth, as it is written.
Matthew 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.Myself included…I believe we all do not do this no where near enough. If we would only pray…and study the word of GOD, we would probably be very surprised at all the things that would be revealed unto us.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 21 2008,14:24) Quote (kejonn @ June 30 2007,08:20) The reason I asked this is because my pastor knows that I have been questioning the validity of the Trinity. I recently withdrew from singing in the choir because I did not feel I could give full glory to God as a praise leader until I resolved this in my heart. Here are some of his statements: My first reaction was, “Is he serious?”
Kejonn [not my real name BTW], you are moving into grave doctrinal error. What you are saying has tremendous implications. I do not accept the doctrine of the Trinity without having looked into, nor do most people, as you assume. The doctrine of the Trinity is foundational to biblical Christianity. It is true that God has not changed. I would suggest that the tri-unity of God is seen even in Genesis with the statement “let US make man in our own image”.I would like to provide you with some resources to balance wherever you are getting this heretical theology. To me, the Deity of Christ and the Trinity strikes at the heart of who Jesus is, and on his capacity to be an atoning sacrifice. I would go so far as to say that you can’t deny the Deity of Christ and truly be a biblical believer.
In my response to him, I gave several verses I believed refuted the Trinity, including the one that really slams it, John 17:3. I did not pursue it much further because I do not want to stir up his heart and mind too much because he pastors a church of 350+ people. My reasoning for this is that I did not want him to be at conflict with this until I was sure in myself. I am fairly certain that he has not studied the Trinity as I have and that I would overwhelm him with verses that put it in serious doubt.
The one thing I did want to say to him though is in regards to his last statement, and the reason why I posted this thread. If belief in the Trinity is necessary for salvation (which I do not agree with), why does he not include that in the Gospel messages he preaches? Why do most churches not ask you about it when you join? Why do you never hear it mentioned in any “sinners prayer”? In other words, if it is so necessary, how many think they have salvation because they merely believed in their heart that they were sinners that needed to repent and then believed on Christ as savior and Lord?
I think you get my meaning here.
Hi KJ,
This was you less than a year ago.
Then you met towshab.
I was having doubts well before I met him. He was just sharing things I was discovering on my own. Don't give him credit for anything, give the writers of the bible the credit for doing a poor job of putting the pieces together. They left behind too many conflicts.WOW!
That towshab guy is really deceiving people here.
Whoever runs this site should probably dust their feet off of that business.How can you not believe in GOD? I suppose its just one big giant coincidence that they universe was formed and over billions of trillions of years dust and rock just happened to fall into place and form galaxies, solar systems, and planets, ultimately life was just formed by accident. That BEGS the question…Who is running this show? Even if you don't believe in GOD you would have to agree at some point something set every thing in motion. How do you explain that? You can't not with out GOD.
It actually reminds me of the Wizard of Oz, Where the guy don't want you to see what going on behind the curtain.
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 23 2008,05:04) So you are officially not a believer KJ?
If you define a “believer” as someone who believes that Jesus Christ was the Jewish Messiah and that one must put their faith in him to “go to heaven”, no. I thoroughly believe in God, but I do not believe the bible — or any other religious text — is fully accurate about the nature of God. Instead, I view the various texts as the way certain people saw God in their own life.I do see much value in both the OT and NT, but don't believe every word it says blindly. To do so would mean I must once again stick my brain in a pickle jar and sing “lalala” with my fingers in my ears.
Hi KJ,
So when the certain people were prophets were they speaking for God?Exodus 6:29
That the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, I am the LORD: speak thou unto Pharaoh king of Egypt all that I say unto thee.
Jeremiah 1:7
But the LORD said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speakGoing back to the purpose of this thread which was to examine whether belief in the trinity was essential for salvation, let us pose this, two people both good, believers in God and Jesus, baptized, etc., and both try and live a life based on both faith and good works motivated by that faith, the difference: one views God as having three equal aspects and the other does not, viewing God as unitary with the Son not equal, but nonetheless holy. Whatever the truth is does anyone feel that the other one is not really going to be saved also? Is the prerequisites of salvation that exacting, that besides being of good heart, faith, etc., that we must all be perfect in our theological interpretations as well? A scary thought if true.
Hello Kj, as a triune believer the answer to your question is “NO“!
no amount of knowledge alone can save you. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. Love you neighbor as yourself is all that is necessary once you become a born again believer.
You can however move on from the milk to the meatier things of scripture to have more jewels in your crown in heaven. (not that you will not be there if you don't but that it is a way to please the Father.)
There is a book that I have read titled “The Spiritual Man” it was written by an asain fellow under the psuedonym “watchman nee”. If you google this guy you will find that him and the baptists and other main line churches did not get along very well. If you read his book as I have it is not hard to see why. The book is very technical and dry on the subject of the triune nature of God and man. (mostly man) It does not leave alot of wiggle room for your faith it pins you down pretty hard. But if you are interested in the trinity/triune nature stuff it is a very good read. I gave it to my pastor to read and I am sure he is disecting it carefully to see what flaws maybe in it I only found one thing I did not agree with the rest is pretty solid. God Bless and I hope this helps. Chip (that is my real name btw)Quote (Cato @ Feb. 25 2008,22:56) Going back to the purpose of this thread which was to examine whether belief in the trinity was essential for salvation, let us pose this, two people both good, believers in God and Jesus, baptized, etc., and both try and live a life based on both faith and good works motivated by that faith, the difference: one views God as having three equal aspects and the other does not, viewing God as unitary with the Son not equal, but nonetheless holy. Whatever the truth is does anyone feel that the other one is not really going to be saved also? Is the prerequisites of salvation that exacting, that besides being of good heart, faith, etc., that we must all be perfect in our theological interpretations as well? A scary thought if true.
Hi cato,
Those who do not stay within scriptural truths put thenselves in great danger. Those of the antichrist come from within the ranks of the followers of Christ.1Jn2
18Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
2Jn
6And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.7For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
1Jn4
'1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
4Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
First we must remember what Isaiah 55:8-9 says:
8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the LORD.9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.When we concern ourself with the trinity we need to remember that verse. The Bible mentions The Father(God of All), Son (God in the Flesh) and the Holy Spirit (Gods Will or Baptism of the Spirit of God). I think many have miss interpreted the word trinity making it 3 separate gods. One God and the ability to be all things. Remember the commandment : “no other gods before Me” God can not brake His own law. Think about it.
Concerning do you have to believe in the Trinity or not. I am not sure, I would only say you need to believe that God is capable of anything if He wants to be a Trinity He can if not He can also. His ways are not our ways that is what we need to remember.
Be Blessed
Hi K77,
Welcome. Certainly God's ways are greater than our ways. But nobody can show us where God has taught through Jesus, the apostles or the prophets about any trinity. So to imagine the trinity theory is part of God's higher ways lacks any foundation in scripture.Rather it seems to be a derivation from supposed implications that theologians have imagined in scripture and then taught as truth.
Man cannot live by bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of God but what of thoughts from the minds of men?
We can live without them and perhaps it is wiser to put them aside and to find truths that are written.
Thanks for the welcome Nick
I do my best to search for the truth in Gods word. I have seen mentioned the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit Matthew 28:19
and Jesus refer to Himself and God as one in John. I am taking these verses at face value. Take a look in Isaiah 7:14, (call him Immanuel or “God with Us”).That is just my thought on it. There is now part in the bible that tells you to believe in the trinity or not to believe in the trinity. It does how ever give a clear path to salvation that being the most important part of everything.
Be Blessed my friends
Hi K77,
Certainly God manifests and works in His Son, His sons and among His creation.
But God is ONE and Jesus told us so, we should believe him.
Jesus is truth.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 05 2008,07:43) Hi K77,
Certainly God manifests and works in His Son, His sons and among His creation.
But God is ONE and Jesus told us so, we should believe him.
Jesus is truth.
Why Can't Jesus and the Holy Spirit be apart of that One? Bible doesn't mention that they are and doesn't mention they are not. Maybe because it's really not that important to our salvation.Are you saying Jesus is not God or is He a God in himself? This is where different people lose me on the subject.
If we say Jesus as a God in himself and we chose to follow Jesus and believe in Him death/resurrection, aren't we braking the first commandment? Wouldn't we be putting another god before God the Father?
Hi k77,
The Son has proceeded from God. He is a son
John 8:42
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.But the Spirit is not a son but is God's own Spirit ever united with and yet proceeding from God
John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:It is a strange thought that God could separate from His own Spirit
Jl2
29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.Hi k77,
Scripture states repeatedly that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
It says in no place that he is our God.In fact Jesus said the Father was his God and our God.
Jn20
17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
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