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If you believe in the Trinity, do you think that adherence to this belief is essential to true salvation? Why or why not?
Idk. I suppose that it goes back to the Commandments.
Err….I suppose that this would help clarify.
Exodus 20 (New International Version)
The Ten Commandments
1 And God spoke all these words:
2 “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.3 “You shall have no other gods before [a] me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.
7 “You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
12 “Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.
13 “You shall not murder.
14 “You shall not commit adultery.
15 “You shall not steal.
16 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
17 “You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”
18 When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance 19 and said to Moses, “Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die.”
20 Moses said to the people, “Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning.”
21 The people remained at a distance, while Moses approached the thick darkness where God was.
Idols and Altars
22 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Tell the Israelites this: 'You have seen for yourselves that I have spoken to you from heaven: 23 Do not make any gods to be alongside me; do not make for yourselves gods of silver or gods of gold.
24 ” 'Make an altar of earth for me and sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, your sheep and goats and your cattle. Wherever I cause my name to be honored, I will come to you and bless you. 25 If you make an altar of stones for me, do not build it with dressed stones, for you will defile it if you use a tool on it. 26 And do not go up to my altar on steps, lest your nakedness be exposed on it.'acertainchap, does that mean you hold to Matthew 19:17?
And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
That is good because I fear too many water down the Gospel by merely stating that belief in Christ as savior is sufficient. I do not really see this anywhere and it flies in the face of the Old Testament.
From your post can I assume that you don't believe that belief in the Trinity is required? I don't and never have even when I never questioned the doctrine, but I wonder what others think.
I don't think that it's required for Salvation but belief in God, [which is a given] is. Let me shed light on my belief. Obtaining Salvation is two-fold: Old Testament: Keeping Commandments and New Testament: Believing in Christ as Savior.
The reason I asked this is because my pastor knows that I have been questioning the validity of the Trinity. I recently withdrew from singing in the choir because I did not feel I could give full glory to God as a praise leader until I resolved this in my heart. Here are some of his statements:
My first reaction was, “Is he serious?”
Kejonn [not my real name BTW], you are moving into grave doctrinal error. What you are saying has tremendous implications. I do not accept the doctrine of the Trinity without having looked into, nor do most people, as you assume. The doctrine of the Trinity is foundational to biblical Christianity. It is true that God has not changed. I would suggest that the tri-unity of God is seen even in Genesis with the statement “let US make man in our own image”.I would like to provide you with some resources to balance wherever you are getting this heretical theology. To me, the Deity of Christ and the Trinity strikes at the heart of who Jesus is, and on his capacity to be an atoning sacrifice. I would go so far as to say that you can’t deny the Deity of Christ and truly be a biblical believer.
In my response to him, I gave several verses I believed refuted the Trinity, including the one that really slams it, John 17:3. I did not pursue it much further because I do not want to stir up his heart and mind too much because he pastors a church of 350+ people. My reasoning for this is that I did not want him to be at conflict with this until I was sure in myself. I am fairly certain that he has not studied the Trinity as I have and that I would overwhelm him with verses that put it in serious doubt.
The one thing I did want to say to him though is in regards to his last statement, and the reason why I posted this thread. If belief in the Trinity is necessary for salvation (which I do not agree with), why does he not include that in the Gospel messages he preaches? Why do most churches not ask you about it when you join? Why do you never hear it mentioned in any “sinners prayer”? In other words, if it is so necessary, how many think they have salvation because they merely believed in their heart that they were sinners that needed to repent and then believed on Christ as savior and Lord?
I think you get my meaning here.
Since when should we exclude all believers from participating in certain threads? I know of several really good Trinitarian sites that you may want to visit? Also, Tim2 belongs to a great Trinitarian site and he left the website on one of the threads.
Having a wide opinion base has only helped me understand why people believe or not believe in the Trinity. Truth cannot hide when you have a host of contributors.
IMHO
Not3in1,
The reason I'm asking for Trinitarians only is because I do not want this thread to denigrate into whether or not the Trinity is true or not. That thread already exists.
By posting this thread, I'm challenging Trinitarians to rethink whether or not this is a necessary belief. I think that, like my pastor, some feel it is necessary for true salvation and I am challenging them to back that belief up. If they cannot, it will help them to not persecute those who do not hold to the belief.
Quote (kejonn @ June 30 2007,08:36) Not3in1, The reason I'm asking for Trinitarians only is because I do not want this thread to denigrate into whether or not the Trinity is true or not. That thread already exists.
By posting this thread, I'm challenging Trinitarians to rethink whether or not this is a necessary belief. I think that, like my pastor, some feel it is necessary for true salvation and I am challenging them to back that belief up. If they cannot, it will help them to not persecute those who do not hold to the belief.
Well, brother, good luck with that! Most of the threads boil down to whether the Trinity is true or not! Ha! We can't help it, it's where it goes.Plus, if you have a site just for Trinitarians and YOU (who have admitted that you are not sure of this doctrine) are trying to convince THEM……you will be eaten alive! Trust me.
This site has a few very well spoken, and learned Trinitarians. They would die for their faith, I'm certain. So, unless you are certain about your faith, I wouldn't attempt to convince someone else. Instead, I would sit back and learn along with the rest of us!
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 30 2007,08:41) Quote (kejonn @ June 30 2007,08:36) Not3in1, The reason I'm asking for Trinitarians only is because I do not want this thread to denigrate into whether or not the Trinity is true or not. That thread already exists.
By posting this thread, I'm challenging Trinitarians to rethink whether or not this is a necessary belief. I think that, like my pastor, some feel it is necessary for true salvation and I am challenging them to back that belief up. If they cannot, it will help them to not persecute those who do not hold to the belief.
Well, brother, good luck with that! Most of the threads boil down to whether the Trinity is true or not! Ha! We can't help it, it's where it goes.Plus, if you have a site just for Trinitarians and YOU (who have admitted that you are not sure of this doctrine) are trying to convince THEM……you will be eaten alive! Trust me.
This site has a few very well spoken, and learned Trinitarians. They would die for their faith, I'm certain. So, unless you are certain about your faith, I wouldn't attempt to convince someone else. Instead, I would sit back and learn along with the rest of us!
Do you believe in the “trinity?”Hi ACC,
You will not find it is the teachings of God
But most take the wider path of consensus.Apostasy is unwise in the longer run.
Hi ACC,
Does
us or we
mean three?
Are you speaking of Genesis?
God was not alone but was with His sons at least.Quote If belief in the Trinity is necessary for salvation (which I do not agree with), why does he not include that in the Gospel messages he preaches? Belief in the Trinity is not necessary for salvation. In fact, John wrote the Gospel of John with the purpose that people would know that Jesus is the Son of God. His purpose was not that people might know the Trinity. Also, you will not find it (the Trinity) in any “Gospel” presentation in the book of acts.
keejon,
your questiions about the trinity are valid. The trinity is not part of the Word of God, but we must believe in the power of the Holy Spirit. It is how Y'shua Son, YHWH Father and we His people are One Elohim. Do you celebrate Sabbath? I question it and the Holy Spirit revealed many good thing to me since I began observing it.
Help!!!! Some say it's real and some don't, the Bible speaks in plural, example: “us.” Help!!!!
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