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Well now, Lets see, where shall I start? First of all, it is a fact, The Catholic church was the first church. In the beginning everyone was catholic. Later on there were splits. For the record I am Catholic. My father raised me in this faith and as far as I go the holiest man besides Jesus. Personal example speaks louder than talk. #2 The bible commands me to honor my parents. No one can judge me. The men who left the church must have been perfect. That is why in many churches they do not even recite the lords prayer because they were so perfect they had the authority to contradict a direct command and do something differant. They were so perfect they left even the things Jesus dictated.
But lets look at the flip side, and being catholic I have a good grip on our flaws. There are many traditions that have no basis in scripture. Some things are just downright wrong. #1. We excommunicate masons for having secrets(being secret societys) and having a “worshipful master” as head of thier lodges, but, the Knights of Columbus have secret rituals for each of thier four degrees, also in the fourth degree a 'supreme master' and a 'master'. Also out of curiousity why is it the 'Knights of Columbus' and not 'Knights of Christ? #2 How is the pope the 'Holy Father”? He is not holy and he is not my father. #3. Sunday, look at the missal, at good Friday. Get to the part where the priest stands in the back of the church and announces “this is the wood of the cross on which hung the savior of the world”, everyone (except me) responds”thanks be to God”. This is repeated two more times. The priest stands in front as the church processes up, bows, and kisses it. Those people are led to venerate a lie. Jesus, my brother, God and friend, did not hang on those crosses, and to say that they are symbols of the cross is not good enough. That would validate what other denominations say about the eucharist. The eucharist is not a symbol, it is Jesus' body. You know why? Because he said it was. But he didn't hang on those crosses. But you know what? I still go here. Because I am sinful and imperfect and so is my church and so is every church. This is the closest to what I believe,but I do not participate in what I do not agree with. My point is this, no church is perfect, they are run by men and imperfect and sinful, and if you happen to be so self rightious that you believe your church is the only church that will make it to heaven, then I believe you are basing your salvation on “works” and not real faith in God, also you re judgeing and will be liable to judgement. I think every churchmember should find out one thing- Out of every dollar I give how much goes to minister to the poor, the blind and lame, the oppressed and the sick and in prison and the hungry? God repeats over and over in the bible that these are the things he wants, not traditions or arguements like these. Myself I diversify my giving. Some to my church and some to good causes, catholic or not. GodblessGood post Mikeangel!
I agree that there is no perfect church. I go to a Baptist church but have gone to a few other denominations before and I haven't seen a perfect church yet, also I am not a trinitarian but my husband is. He has the spiritual leadership in my home. Every church that I have been to has benefited me in one way or another and they have all respected the Bible as the word of God written down by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
I believe that the Bible teaches us that there will be mature believers and immature believers among the same church group and that those who are more mature, help those that are less mature until we all attain to the unity of the faith.
When a song comes up that says “God in three persons, blessed trinity,” I just don't sing along but mostly I do agree with the lyrics and also the teachings. I think that we need to love others and realize that we could be wrong with what we believe too. I chew up the meat and spit out the bones.
Kathi
Amen Kathi,
When a prayer is offered to the “holy father” I look out the window and tell God I love him. Sadly, I do not think there will be unity untill God intervenes. When he does though, I believe all the majior church “sheperds” are in for a shock. There is a old document called the “didache” I think . It dates back to the second century and was a church guide. You'll find it very interesting. One particular thing I liked was where is said that 'prophets' that were visiting could only stay one or two days, or they should be given work to earn their keep. It said that if they asked for money they were false phrophets. Hmmmm. GodblessHi CA,
When you have taken communion say 1000 times are you getting really close to becoming like Jesus?
then why do you ask Mary to pray for you when you are dying?
Does your confidence in ritualism evaporate?CA,
Do you get enjoyment beating your head against the wall with Nick? You must. But after that please give me your thoughts on my above post. Godbless.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 19 2010,17:39) “Can a person be saved apart from the CC?” Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,21:12) NO! There is NO salvation outside of the Catholic Church! I thought I made that clear.
CAOkay this is where I part with you and will go no further with this dialogue since your definition of the “True Church” is totally different than Jesus and the Apostles!
Your statement that “No one” can be saved apart from the CC is proof that the “Catholic” Church (which you represent) somewhere has gotten off track and has departed from the original message of Christ!
Your words are not so clear and it is obvious that you are not being totally honest here!
A while back you said to me…
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 02 2009,11:53) BTW, I don't doubt your experiences from God. Not for one second. I don't doubt that God has shown you great mercy. I don't doubt that you have a relationship with God.
How does your statement above agree? How are you being clear?So let me be a little more personal about the question!
“Were you saved before you became a Catholic”?
From what I know of your background, you were!
This is important, because your definition of the “True Church” is not the scriptural definition that you say is inspired!
Your statement disagrees with Jesus own words when he says….
Therefore “whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them“, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: Matt 7:24
“Whosoever” therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. Matt 12:50
That “whosoever” believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:15
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that “whosoever” believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16
Awaiting your response! WJ
MICHAELA
i read you comment on your stand in your church ,it seems confusing and i do understand that ,i was born catholic,
your description i very good to say the least,but i can see you have acquired some true knowledge you explain that in your comment,
the only thing i see wrong in what you doing is that you are standing in the wrong place to see were you can go.if someone looks at something with is nose pined to it what can he really seen? not much
so i would ask you you if you are able to step out of the catholic church like for a year or so,and only read the bible ,not in a catholic way but just as the word of God ,if you are sincere like you say ,your own understanding from the word of God will show the way,
then you may see the light of Christ shining in your heart.it is you and your God our creator.
Quote (mikeangel @ Feb. 19 2010,22:32) Well now, Lets see, where shall I start? First of all, it is a fact, The Catholic church was the first church. In the beginning everyone was catholic. Later on there were splits. For the record I am Catholic.
CAWhat do you say about this Catholic? Is he saved or condemned? He doesn't believe in the Trinity or worshipping Jesus!
Blessings WJ
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 21 2010,05:55) MICHAELA i read you comment on your stand in your church ,it seems confusing and i do understand that ,i was born catholic,
your description i very good to say the least,but i can see you have acquired some true knowledge you explain that in your comment,
the only thing i see wrong in what you doing is that you are standing in the wrong place to see were you can go.if someone looks at something with is nose pined to it what can he really seen? not much
so i would ask you you if you are able to step out of the catholic church like for a year or so,and only read the bible ,not in a catholic way but just as the word of God ,if you are sincere like you say ,your own understanding from the word of God will show the way,
then you may see the light of Christ shining in your heart.it is you and your God our creator.
Terricca,
In my view, you are in the group of judgeing others. You do not have any idea of where I have been and what I have researched. You are ingnorant of my journey. How do you know how I read my bible? You don't. What I have been saying is very simple. On both sides, Catholic, Orthodox, or otherwise, you cannot say what God will Judge by. Matt-7 v1″ If you want to avoid judgment, stop passing judgment”. I have been on a long faith journey. I personally,for myself, read the bible daily. In it I find that I believe that all churches are wrong in one way or the other. That is because they are directed by men, which are sinful and imperfect. I have visited several differant churches, and in my very active prayer life I found that they are helpful with fellowship with other christians, but in themselves they cannot be perfect. One of the churches I visited was a Yasua(Jesus) believing Jewish church (massianic jewish). I reeeely enjoyed it. I still visit from time to time(it's on Saturday of course). As far as the service goes, IT IS EXACTLY LIKE JESUS WORSHIPED GOD. The opening of the torah was cool. At communion, you have a choice of either wine or grape juice. Too cool. If I were to change , it would be to this church. I cry at the service sometimes, you can feel God. It is not perfect either though. Out of all the other churches though, what I cannot get past is this–The catholic church was the first church, founded on Peter, the rock. The temple was the right way to go in ancient times, but if you read in chronicles and kings often times they strayed from the truth, following the practices of the other nations God cleared out of the way. They were sinful inperfect men. Throughout history, men have erred on directing Gods church. God did not say “start another religion”. But Jesus did say”unless your holiness surpasses that of the scribes and pharisees you shall not enter the kingdom of God” Today, that could be the pastors getting 6 figure incomes with a huge church while giving hardly anything to the poor, priest who abuse their authority etc. and all other people making money on god, using the cross as a cash cow. Luke 20v47, These men are going through the savings of widows while they recite long prayers to keep up appearances, the heaver sentance will be thiers”. Up to Jesus, the true way under our god was the Jewish way, Given to Moses. Jesus knew how greedy and wicked they had become. He didn't tell his diciples” you need to leave them because they are hypocritical and wrong ” And they were, he even knew they would have him killed. But, He told them Matt23v2-“The scribes and pharisees have succeeded Moses as teachers; therefore do everything they tell you. but do not follow their example.” Also in my church, I feel that we celebrate the eucharist as Jesus commanded. Matt 26v26″this is my body”. It is not a symbol. He did not say “this is a symbol of my body”. Later John6v53 “If you do not eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you”. BUT, even believing that I do not have the arrogance or self rightiousness to say to others “if you don't do this you won't go to heaven” or ” your wrong “. Then I would be as judgmental as alot of people on here. Also with the lord's prayer–Jesus said Luke11v4 When you pray, say:” and the lords prayer follows. Not “this is the seven characteristics of prayer” but specifically the our father. I do not tell churches that don't say it “your wrong” but to me it's black and white(really important words in red). I believe the people who are humble and meek and have a love for God and know they will never be good enough to condemn someone else are probibly in better shape then arrogant judgmental self rightious people.Whew! GodblessQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 21 2010,06:04) Quote (mikeangel @ Feb. 19 2010,22:32) Well now, Lets see, where shall I start? First of all, it is a fact, The Catholic church was the first church. In the beginning everyone was catholic. Later on there were splits. For the record I am Catholic.
CAWhat do you say about this Catholic? Is he saved or condemned? He doesn't believe in the Trinity or worshipping Jesus!
Blessings WJ
Worshipingjesus,
As my dad use to say “son, what have you been smoking?” Where did you ever get that I don't believe in Jesus? Wherever it was, let me set this straight- Jesus is my brother, God, friend, Lord and reason for living. I beg him every day to come back and deliver us from this most evil and idol-worshiping sinful world.
Second, I believe God is in three persons but one being( I believe thats trinity) John 8v19 “you know neither me nor my father. If you knew me you would know my Father too” also Jn14v9″show us the father, ….Jesus replies”after I have been with you all this time, you still do not know me?” Knowing and believing that , I believe this is how the number of the beast is calculated: Each being is separate but presant in each other, therefore, each ones number is 333. 333+333+333=999, Gods whole number. Turn that upside down(the opposite of God) and its 666, this worlds King, the spritual Elvis, born after he died(wounded by the sword but yet lived). GodblessQuote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 20 2010,05:39) , On what authority do you rely to compile the list of books you claim belong in the Bible? How do you determine the canon?
If you say, I just prayed and God showed me. Then you MUST allow for someone else to pray and say that God showed them that the book of Romans doesn't belong. Even if they are utterly false.
You have subjectified truth. If not, PLEASE tell me on what authority you claim your list of inspired canonical books.
I'm waiting.
CAThe Bible is the word of God, or is it?
Should I doubt what is written in “it”, and give more credibility to what was written, say, by the pope?
It is God's responsibility to give us the information we need, and to be responsible for the accuracy of it; why would I doubt that?
It has always been people, not understanding scripture, but to proud to admit it, that have made a mess of it, and still do; and that started way back in the first Century, with all their so called enlightened writings, and to make them more credible they called them saints.
Those people then had no more understanding than people today, in fact I think less, as much of the prophesies were written for our time.Georg
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 20 2010,14:44) Good post Mikeangel! I agree that there is no perfect church. I go to a Baptist church but have gone to a few other denominations before and I haven't seen a perfect church yet, also I am not a trinitarian but my husband is. He has the spiritual leadership in my home. Every church that I have been to has benefited me in one way or another and they have all respected the Bible as the word of God written down by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
I believe that the Bible teaches us that there will be mature believers and immature believers among the same church group and that those who are more mature, help those that are less mature until we all attain to the unity of the faith.
When a song comes up that says “God in three persons, blessed trinity,” I just don't sing along but mostly I do agree with the lyrics and also the teachings. I think that we need to love others and realize that we could be wrong with what we believe too. I chew up the meat and spit out the bones.
Kathi
Kumbaya!Off to bed. Wish I had more time tonight to answer yall.
All in good time God willing
Quote (mikeangel @ Feb. 20 2010,19:37) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 21 2010,06:04) Quote (mikeangel @ Feb. 19 2010,22:32) Well now, Lets see, where shall I start? First of all, it is a fact, The Catholic church was the first church. In the beginning everyone was catholic. Later on there were splits. For the record I am Catholic.
CAWhat do you say about this Catholic? Is he saved or condemned? He doesn't believe in the Trinity or worshipping Jesus!
Blessings WJ
Worshipingjesus,
As my dad use to say “son, what have you been smoking?” Where did you ever get that I don't believe in Jesus? Wherever it was, let me set this straight- Jesus is my brother, God, friend, Lord and reason for living. I beg him every day to come back and deliver us from this most evil and idol-worshiping sinful world.
Second, I believe God is in three persons but one being( I believe thats trinity) John 8v19 “you know neither me nor my father. If you knew me you would know my Father too” also Jn14v9″show us the father, ….Jesus replies”after I have been with you all this time, you still do not know me?” Knowing and believing that , I believe this is how the number of the beast is calculated: Each being is separate but presant in each other, therefore, each ones number is 333. 333+333+333=999, Gods whole number. Turn that upside down(the opposite of God) and its 666, this worlds King, the spritual Elvis, born after he died(wounded by the sword but yet lived). Godbless
MikeMy very humble oppology!
I got you mixed up with the other Mike!
Blessings WJ
Mikeangel said:
Quote Jesus is my brother, God, friend, Lord and reason for living.
AMEN MY BROTHER!thinker
Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 22 2010,15:23) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 20 2010,05:39) , On what authority do you rely to compile the list of books you claim belong in the Bible? How do you determine the canon?
If you say, I just prayed and God showed me. Then you MUST allow for someone else to pray and say that God showed them that the book of Romans doesn't belong. Even if they are utterly false.
You have subjectified truth. If not, PLEASE tell me on what authority you claim your list of inspired canonical books.
I'm waiting.
CAThe Bible is the word of God, or is it?
Should I doubt what is written in “it”, and give more credibility to what was written, say, by the pope?
It is God's responsibility to give us the information we need, and to be responsible for the accuracy of it; why would I doubt that?
It has always been people, not understanding scripture, but to proud to admit it, that have made a mess of it, and still do; and that started way back in the first Century, with all their so called enlightened writings, and to make them more credible they called them saints.
Those people then had no more understanding than people today, in fact I think less, as much of the prophesies were written for our time.Georg
Georg,
The cannon was established by the original church, the first church. The accepted bible included Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, 1 and 2 maccabees, and parts of Daniel and Ester. That was the accepted bible up until the reformation. Then, Luther removed them. Curoiusly he also removed Hebrews, James , Jude, and the apocalypse. Here is my question that I want to ask you. Do you think he had the 'divine authority' to decide what to remove from the bible? If he did then why did protestants 'reinsert' the eliminated New testament books later? Wouldnt that be giving them the same false authority as you say the pope falsely has or had? Do you reject the prophesy from these books? Have you ever read Wisdom? GodblessThe church/temple changed at the covenant change. The old testament temple made with hands became the temple made without hands, the human body. The place of sacrifice in the old temple and the holy of holies are now within the human being. The ritual works for cleanliness are now spiritually covered by the blood of Christ. No more works for cleanliness. This is the day of rest. This is the day prophesied by all the prophets that would come.This is the day of salvation from sin. No more sin!! The sabbath rest of God. No more works. Just believe!! Righteousness today is by faith that the work is done, we have been washed clean. (it always was by faith back to Abraham who was righteous by faith) We argue about words and we say lord lord but I don’t think we listen to the teachings of Jesus. Jesus came to save us from sin.Did he accomplish that truth with his blood? Did Jesus take away the sin of the world? If Jesus was the final sacrifice for sin then sin is gone or there is no sacrifice to atone for it!! I hear people say they sin every day or even if they don’t know it they sin. People, if you think you are in sin, then you are, which is a rejection or denial of what Jesus came to do. Jesus also came to preach the gospel of the Kindom of God. The good news is that the Kingdom of God came with/through Jesus, the word of God. The Kingdom is within us. How many messages do you hear about the Kingdom of God dwelling in your heart?
This is the great covenant change from physical(brick & mortar temple) to spiritual(understanding of the word of God).
All of the law, the prophets, the Psalms testified of the coming of Jesus. (Luke 24:44) . Jesus said, .. “search the scriptures for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they that testify of me…”(John5:39). The law led us up to the coming of Christ, (Gal.3:24). All of the Law and the Prophets prophesied until John the baptist. (Matt.11:13). The Law and the prophets were until John (the baptist) since then the Kingdom of God is preached. (Luke 16:16).
The arrival of John the Baptist and Jesus the Christ were the fulfillment of all prophecy. The genealogies were from Adam to Jesus. All prophecy led us to Christ and the establishment of the New Testament Kingdom of God.
THE END OF THE OLD COVENANT: The prophets of the old covenant prophesied of the end of that world order when the Christ would come to establish a new covenant. The old way to seek God passed away and behold all things became the way of the New Covenant with the anointing of God’s eternal word/Jesus. The eternal word/Jesus/spirit of God was come to establish the Kingdom of God that would be without end or eternal. Yeshua Ben Joseph also known as Jesus of Nazareth was the chosen one of God to administer the Spirit of Christ to all who would receive and accept/believe. So did Jesus arise among the people with the mission from God to establish the Kingdom in the new temple built without hands. The new church, the new body of Christ all within the human being. (Luke 17:21) “The Kingdom of God cometh NOT WITH OBSERVATION: Neither shall they say, Lo here or, lo there! For the Kingdom of God is within you..” There are great multitudes of religious doctrines, pages and pages with thousands of scriptures written very ambiguously with vague interpretations describing horrific destruction, chaos, pain and suffering that will be had at the end of the world. Most of these doctrines come from the Revelation of St John the Divine. This writing is a vision by a very old John, alone on an island called Patmos. The writing called Revelation has caused the religious world to work overtime to make the new testament gospel of (glad tidings) into a warning of death and destruction that is about to be poured out on mankind. “Beware of the end of the world.” Revelation is a metaphorically and spiritually discerned book that religious persons are attempting to interpret and make understandable at a literal level. All Bible prophecy was about the coming of Jesus to establish the Kingdom of God. (Matt.11:13—Luke18:31—John5:39) Also included is the writing of Revelation which at ch3:v4 says it also is a prophecy. It also ends with the Kingdom of God being established in the earth or when Jesus appeared. The Revelation is an overview leading up to Christ. It is an unveiling or uncovering of the events leading up to and including the ministry of Jesus, the Christ, unto the establishment of the Kingdom of God. An uncovering or an overview of the mission of Jesus Christ. It is a prophecy which like all prophecies ended with the finished work of Jesus. Luke 16:16, All prophecy was until John the baptist. The prophets prophesied about the coming of Jesus and his work to accomplish. Jesus was the end of the old covenant way of serving God. They had lost their way to God through doctrines, rituals, rules, etc., and were in darkness and sin. Jesus established the new covenant arrival of the Kingdom of God. This is what he preached and that is what fulfilled his mission. Daniels interpretation of the Kings dream with feet of bronze, iron and clay was in the days of those Kings, the Roman Empire, God will set up a Kingdom that will NEVER BE DESTROYED!! There is no end time or end of the Kingdom of God on earth. So, when you read the New Testament, about the Kingdom of God which was the truth Jesus came to preach and establish, you must be born again by the renewing of your mine or re-create your mind to a new way of thinking that God dwells in you. Old covenant ritualistic works for God were passed away and the new way truth is the gift of the Spirit of God which has come to us in the words of Truth from Jesus the anointed Christ. Jesus said his words are spirit and are life.(John6:63). Jesus spoke Gods spirit words in parables, pictures, dreams. Only the spirit of God can reveal to you the Truth in this form. Seeing is no longer just the eyes, it is understanding. Hearing is no longer just with ears but understanding. In all knowledge get understanding. Understanding is with the heart! TKQuote (mikeangel @ Feb. 25 2010,00:24) Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 22 2010,15:23) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 20 2010,05:39) , On what authority do you rely to compile the list of books you claim belong in the Bible? How do you determine the canon?
If you say, I just prayed and God showed me. Then you MUST allow for someone else to pray and say that God showed them that the book of Romans doesn't belong. Even if they are utterly false.
You have subjectified truth. If not, PLEASE tell me on what authority you claim your list of inspired canonical books.
I'm waiting.
CAThe Bible is the word of God, or is it?
Should I doubt what is written in “it”, and give more credibility to what was written, say, by the pope?
It is God's responsibility to give us the information we need, and to be responsible for the accuracy of it; why would I doubt that?
It has always been people, not understanding scripture, but to proud to admit it, that have made a mess of it, and still do; and that started way back in the first Century, with all their so called enlightened writings, and to make them more credible they called them saints.
Those people then had no more understanding than people today, in fact I think less, as much of the prophesies were written for our time.Georg
Georg,
The cannon was established by the original church, the first church. The accepted bible included Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, 1 and 2 maccabees, and parts of Daniel and Ester. That was the accepted bible up until the reformation. Then, Luther removed them. Curoiusly he also removed Hebrews, James , Jude, and the apocalypse. Here is my question that I want to ask you. Do you think he had the 'divine authority' to decide what to remove from the bible? If he did then why did protestants 'reinsert' the eliminated New testament books later? Wouldnt that be giving them the same false authority as you say the pope falsely has or had? Do you reject the prophesy from these books? Have you ever read Wisdom? Godbless
mikeI have a Bible that has all those books in it, haven't read them much; what I did read was more history and events that had little teaching value, I guess that's why they left them out.
Martin Luther may have removed some of the books, which I didn't know, but he didn't rewrite the Bible, did he? or write his own, did he?
I have only glanced through the book of wisdom, it appears to me as a chronicle of the book of Proverbs, and not exactly correct in it's explanation, and confusing because of wisdom is always addressed as “she”. What does the book offer, that you can't learn in the rest of the OT?
You know, what Martin Luther did, start the great reformation, was prophesied, Dan. 11:34.Georg
Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 24 2010,10:35) Quote (mikeangel @ Feb. 25 2010,00:24) Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 22 2010,15:23) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 20 2010,05:39) , On what authority do you rely to compile the list of books you claim belong in the Bible? How do you determine the canon?
If you say, I just prayed and God showed me. Then you MUST allow for someone else to pray and say that God showed them that the book of Romans doesn't belong. Even if they are utterly false.
You have subjectified truth. If not, PLEASE tell me on what authority you claim your list of inspired canonical books.
I'm waiting.
CAThe Bible is the word of God, or is it?
Should I doubt what is written in “it”, and give more credibility to what was written, say, by the pope?
It is God's responsibility to give us the information we need, and to be responsible for the accuracy of it; why would I doubt that?
It has always been people, not understanding scripture, but to proud to admit it, that have made a mess of it, and still do; and that started way back in the first Century, with all their so called enlightened writings, and to make them more credible they called them saints.
Those people then had no more understanding than people today, in fact I think less, as much of the prophesies were written for our time.Georg
Georg,
The cannon was established by the original church, the first church. The accepted bible included Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, 1 and 2 maccabees, and parts of Daniel and Ester. That was the accepted bible up until the reformation. Then, Luther removed them. Curoiusly he also removed Hebrews, James , Jude, and the apocalypse. Here is my question that I want to ask you. Do you think he had the 'divine authority' to decide what to remove from the bible? If he did then why did protestants 'reinsert' the eliminated New testament books later? Wouldnt that be giving them the same false authority as you say the pope falsely has or had? Do you reject the prophesy from these books? Have you ever read Wisdom? Godbless
mikeI have a Bible that has all those books in it, haven't read them much; what I did read was more history and events that had little teaching value, I guess that's why they left them out.
Martin Luther may have removed some of the books, which I didn't know, but he didn't rewrite the Bible, did he? or write his own, did he?
I have only glanced through the book of wisdom, it appears to me as a chronicle of the book of Proverbs, and not exactly correct in it's explanation, and confusing because of wisdom is always addressed as “she”. What does the book offer, that you can't learn in the rest of the OT?
You know, what Martin Luther did, start the great reformation, was prophesied, Dan. 11:34.Georg
GeorgeActually Luther did write his own Bible!
After studying the history of Luther I hardly have the respect for him I used to.
WJ
Is the Body of Christ invisible or visible.
Well that question really matters little.A better question is, “is the Church the Body of Christ”.
The answer is yes.So we only need to think of the Body of Christ and what it is like to understand what the Church is.
Romans 12:5
so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.1 Corinthians 12:12
The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ.1 Corinthians 12:27
Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of itColossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.So I think we can safely put this debate to bed.
Is the Church the RCC?
No, it is the Body of Christ.Is it the Anglican Church?
No it is the Body of Christ.Are the Pentecostal Churches the true Church?
No the Body of Christ is the Church.Thanks for listening.
Shall I close this debate CA?
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