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=== If you do not consider yourself “Protestant” substitute the term “non-Catholic Christian”. I am still talking to YOU ===
To those who say the true Church is invisible:
Nowhere in Scripture will it ever be found that the Church is invisible. Rather references in Scripture are everywhere which point to a visible Church. How are the following verses to be understood of an invisible Church?
“And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican” Matt 18:17.
“Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.” Acts 20:28
“But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth” 1 Tim 3:15
“And sending from Miletus to Ephesus, he called the ancients of the church” Acts 20:17
“And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received by the church, and by the apostles and ancients, declaring how great things God had done with them” Acts 15:4
“And when they had ordained to them priests in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, in whom they believed” Acts 14:22
“And when they were come, and had assembled the church, they related what great things God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith to the Gentiles” Acts 14:26
“And going down to Caesarea, he went up to Jerusalem, and saluted the church, and so came down to Antioch” Acts 18:22
It is illogical to think that Jesus would establish His Church then make it invisible and inaccessible to us. If that were the case, where would one seek it to rule it, converse with it and lay complaints before it?
When the Church sent St. Paul, and received him, when he confirmed it, ordained priests in it, assembled it, saluted it, wrote to it, and persecuted it, was this just in spirit? These were visible acts on both sides!
The pastors and doctors of the Church are visible, therefore the Church is visible. The pastors and their sheep must know each other. What kind of shepherd cannot see his flock? St. Peter was as to a pastor when Jesus told him, “feed my sheep”, and so were the Apostles, and they are all visible.
It is the property of the Church to carry on the preaching of the Word of God, the Sacraments etc. How could this be called invisible?
How do Christians begin their course as people of God? By Baptism, a visible sign. And by whom are they governed? By bishops, which are visible men. And how has the Church been persecuted over the centuries? By visible people. Need we say more?
To put it simply, the body is composed of body and soul, and so is the Church. The Church consists of Her interior soul, which is faith, hope, charity, grace etc (all invisible), and Her exterior, which is her members, preaching, Sacraments, sacrifices etc (all visible).
Some Protestants, in defense of the invisible Church theory, have claimed that there are two Churches; one visible and imperfect Church made of its members (which can err and are called “reprobate”), and one invisible and perfect Church made of the “elect” that only God knows (which cannot err). Not only is this belief not found in Scripture but it is also illogical as we will now explain:
It is well known that all members of the Church must have their sins loosed and retained as Scripture says. Those whose sins are retained are considered reprobate (this includes priests and bishops), though they remain members of the Church until their sins are loosed. It is not until a person is cast from the Church that they are no longer considered members. Judas was reprobate, yet he was Apostle and bishop.
To say only the elect (which Calvin and other reformers say are unknown to us) are members of the true Church is to say we cannot know for sure who our prelates are and who to pay obedience to. This goes to show that not only the elect, but also the reprobate are in the Church. The Church is equivalent to an army with good and bad soldiers, many of which stray or are killed, but the army as a whole still remains victorious over the gates of hell despite downfalls of its members.
In summary, the New Testament frequently refers to the Church as an external, visible society. How then could Our Lord require us to believe under penalty of damnation (Mark 16:18) and to consider the Christian disobedient to the Church's commands “a heathen and a publican” (Matt 18:17) if we could not easily and unmistakably recognize the Church as a visible society?
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,09:39) === If you do not consider yourself “Protestant” substitute the term “non-Catholic Christian”. I am still talking to YOU === To those who say the true Church is invisible:
Nowhere in Scripture will it ever be found that the Church is invisible. Rather references in Scripture are everywhere which point to a visible Church. How are the following verses to be understood of an invisible Church?
“And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican” Matt 18:17.
“Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.” Acts 20:28
“But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth” 1 Tim 3:15
“And sending from Miletus to Ephesus, he called the ancients of the church” Acts 20:17
“And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received by the church, and by the apostles and ancients, declaring how great things God had done with them” Acts 15:4
“And when they had ordained to them priests in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, in whom they believed” Acts 14:22
“And when they were come, and had assembled the church, they related what great things God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith to the Gentiles” Acts 14:26
“And going down to Caesarea, he went up to Jerusalem, and saluted the church, and so came down to Antioch” Acts 18:22
It is illogical to think that Jesus would establish His Church then make it invisible and inaccessible to us. If that were the case, where would one seek it to rule it, converse with it and lay complaints before it?
When the Church sent St. Paul, and received him, when he confirmed it, ordained priests in it, assembled it, saluted it, wrote to it, and persecuted it, was this just in spirit? These were visible acts on both sides!
The pastors and doctors of the Church are visible, therefore the Church is visible. The pastors and their sheep must know each other. What kind of shepherd cannot see his flock? St. Peter was as to a pastor when Jesus told him, “feed my sheep”, and so were the Apostles, and they are all visible.
It is the property of the Church to carry on the preaching of the Word of God, the Sacraments etc. How could this be called invisible?
How do Christians begin their course as people of God? By Baptism, a visible sign. And by whom are they governed? By bishops, which are visible men. And how has the Church been persecuted over the centuries? By visible people. Need we say more?
To put it simply, the body is composed of body and soul, and so is the Church. The Church consists of Her interior soul, which is faith, hope, charity, grace etc (all invisible), and Her exterior, which is her members, preaching, Sacraments, sacrifices etc (all visible).
Some Protestants, in defense of the invisible Church theory, have claimed that there are two Churches; one visible and imperfect Church made of its members (which can err and are called “reprobate”), and one invisible and perfect Church made of the “elect” that only God knows (which cannot err). Not only is this belief not found in Scripture but it is also illogical as we will now explain:
It is well known that all members of the Church must have their sins loosed and retained as Scripture says. Those whose sins are retained are considered reprobate (this includes priests and bishops), though they remain members of the Church until their sins are loosed. It is not until a person is cast from the Church that they are no longer considered members. Judas was reprobate, yet he was Apostle and bishop.
To say only the elect (which Calvin and other reformers say are unknown to us) are members of the true Church is to say we cannot know for sure who our prelates are and who to pay obedience to. This goes to show that not only the elect, but also the reprobate are in the Church. The Church is equivalent to an army with good and bad soldiers, many of which stray or are killed, but the army as a whole still remains victorious over the gates of hell despite downfalls of its members.
In summary, the New Testament frequently refers to the Church as an external, visible society. How then could Our Lord require us to believe under penalty of damnation (Mark 16:18) and to consider the Christian disobedient to the Church's commands “a heathen and a publican” (Matt 18:17) if we could not easily and unmistakably recognize the Church as a visible society?
Hi CA:The church is the body of Christ, and it is visible through the Love of God manifest through the life that we live in obedience to God's Word.
We are not governed by the bishops but by the Word of God.
Of course, we obey the authority that God has placed over us inasmuch as they are teaching the Word of God, but no, if they are not, I am not obligated to obey.
For example, there are those who say that they are Bishops and are practicing a homosexual lifestyle. One cannot even be a Christian practicing sin of any kind, and so, how can someone like this be ordained as a bishop.
Love in Christ,
MartyCa
So when Jesus said “where two or three are gathered together in his name there he would be in the midst' was not true and they are not members of his Body the Church?
Where two or three are in his name “Jesus” blessed!
But you and your religion says no!
Are our bodys the “Temple of God”? If so does God dwell in them and would that not also be his body and his Church?
Did Jesus say that he and the Father would come and make their abode in us if we keep his words and love him?
Why do you limit God the Holy Spirit to a physical organization?
Blessings WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 19 2010,10:25) Ca So when Jesus said “where two or three are gathered together in his name there he would be in the midst' was not true and they are not members of his Body the Church?
Where two or three are in his name “Jesus” blessed!
But you and your religion says no!
Are our bodys the “Temple of God”? If so does God dwell in them and would that not also be his body and his Church?
Did Jesus say that he and the Father would come and make their abode in us if we keep his words and love him?
Why do you limit God the Holy Spirit to a physical organization?
Blessings WJ
Why don't you apply the consistent hermeneutic to this issue as you do to the Trinity? Why do you start proof-texting when it comes to the Church?Let's take the Scripture you raise IN CONTEXT:
“And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven. Again I say to you, that if two of you shall consent upon earth, concerning any thing whatsoever they shall ask, it shall be done to them by my Father who is in heaven. For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.“
Hmm…
Look at the word “For” at the beginning of the sentence you quote. Notice that this conjunction directly connects the sentence to the preceding statements?
Jesus is telling how to settle disputes IN THE CHURCH
Jesus is assuming that there is a physical CHURCH for people to appeal to. (notice here he does not say “churches” plural, but church)
Please tell me you can see this.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 19 2010,11:40) Hi CA,
Rome is not the church of God.
Her fruit stinks to heaven
Wake up.
Nick! I really don't think that H is going to wake up… He reminds me so much of some Catholic that would trow the Bible out, because it says that Maria had other children, and did not stay a Virgin. Blind, blind, blind and they will never see, until Christ will come and maybe then….
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 19 2010,12:33) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 19 2010,11:40) Hi CA,
Rome is not the church of God.
Her fruit stinks to heaven
Wake up.
Nick! I really don't think that H is going to wake up… He reminds me so much of some Catholic that would trow the Bible out, because it says that Maria had other children, and did not stay a Virgin. Blind, blind, blind and they will never see, until Christ will come and maybe then….
Peace and Love Irene
On the contrary…Irene, you have thrown at least seven (7) books out of your Bible. I still have all 73 in mine.
Hypocrite.
Hi CA,
Then why not read them?
Relying on rome to tell you what to believe is not being very brave is it?CA
I don't think that you know, that the reason your church is called, “ROMAN CATHOLIC (universal) CHURCH”, is because of the emperor Constantine. Before his time there was no Catholic , or Roman church; there was just a church that called themselves Christians.
Constantine even persecuted the Christians, and the Jews, until 313 AD, when he stopped all persecution; and then in 324 AD, he made this religion, Christianity, the religion of the empire, it became universal. And the fact that it was called “Roman” should be obvious.
You know what Lincoln said, “you can fool some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time”.Georg
I am going to add to this that the Books that you are talking about, are the Books that only the Catholics have and are not in the Original Transcripts. Who is the Hypocrite, look in the mirror you will find him there….And for your information we own a Catholic Bible with Pictures of the so called Pope's in them. A Wedding Present 49 years ago, we were Catholics then and now I am forever thankful to God that God called us out. I want to tell you something that should even surprise you. When we first started with the AW.W.Church of God. We had one of their Minister come and speak to us. Afterwards we called our Parish Priest and asked Him all kinds of questions. At one point He told my Husband and I quote:” God is calling you.” He knew, but because of the job that was easy money, He stayed. I think. I think today a lot of Ministers and Priests are in for it for personal gain, whether it is power or money…But i know you are not going to agree with that.:)
IreneQuote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 19 2010,20:09) CA I don't think that you know, that the reason your church is called, “ROMAN CATHOLIC (universal) CHURCH”, is because of the emperor Constantine. Before his time there was no Catholic , or Roman church; there was just a church that called themselves Christians.
Constantine even persecuted the Christians, and the Jews, until 313 AD, when he stopped all persecution; and then in 324 AD, he made this religion, Christianity, the religion of the empire, it became universal. And the fact that it was called “Roman” should be obvious.
You know what Lincoln said, “you can fool some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time”.Georg
I am going to add to this that the Books that you are talking about, are the Books that only the Catholics have and are not in the Original Transcripts. Who is the Hypocrite, look in the mirror you will find him there….And for your information we own a Catholic Bible with Pictures of the so called Pope's in them. A Wedding Present 49 years ago, we were Catholics then and now I am forever thankful to God that God called us out. I want to tell you something that should even surprise you. When we first started with the AW.W.Church of God. We had one of their Minister come and speak to us. Afterwards we called our Parish Priest and asked Him all kinds of questions. At one point He told my Husband and I quote:” God is calling you.” He knew, but because of the job that was easy money, He stayed. I think. I think today a lot of Ministers and Priests are in for it for personal gain, whether it is power or money…But i know you are not going to agree with that.:)
Irene
Georg,I have corrected this before. The official name of the Church is not and never has been “Roman” Catholic. It is the Catholic Church. I am NOT a “Roman” Catholic. I am under the Patriarch of Antioch, one of the ancient five major Patriarchal sees. The pope is the Patriarch of Rome. So you see, you don't understand your history. The first council of Nicea was NOT convened in Rome, but in the East. Ignatius of Antioch, successor of St. Peter who knew the apostles referred to the Church as the Catholic Church. Constantine would not be born for generations after this.
So quit your lies and deception.
Constantine was never a pope. He didn't sabotage the church. This is easily proven by looking at what the Church fathers believed BEFORE Constantine. BTW, Tertullian became a heretic.
Hi CA,
But it has no connection whatever to the Body of Christ.
To enter it you do not need to repent or be baptized in the name of Jesus or receive of the Spirit of God.Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 19 2010,20:09) CA I don't think that you know, that the reason your church is called, “ROMAN CATHOLIC (universal) CHURCH”, is because of the emperor Constantine. Before his time there was no Catholic , or Roman church; there was just a church that called themselves Christians.
Constantine even persecuted the Christians, and the Jews, until 313 AD, when he stopped all persecution; and then in 324 AD, he made this religion, Christianity, the religion of the empire, it became universal. And the fact that it was called “Roman” should be obvious.
You know what Lincoln said, “you can fool some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time”.Georg
I am going to add to this that the Books that you are talking about, are the Books that only the Catholics have and are not in the Original Transcripts. Who is the Hypocrite, look in the mirror you will find him there….And for your information we own a Catholic Bible with Pictures of the so called Pope's in them. A Wedding Present 49 years ago, we were Catholics then and now I am forever thankful to God that God called us out. I want to tell you something that should even surprise you. When we first started with the AW.W.Church of God. We had one of their Minister come and speak to us. Afterwards we called our Parish Priest and asked Him all kinds of questions. At one point He told my Husband and I quote:” God is calling you.” He knew, but because of the job that was easy money, He stayed. I think. I think today a lot of Ministers and Priests are in for it for personal gain, whether it is power or money…But i know you are not going to agree with that.:)
Irene
Irene,On what authority do you rely to compile the list of books you claim belong in the Bible? How do you determine the canon?
If you say, I just prayed and God showed me. Then you MUST allow for someone else to pray and say that God showed them that the book of Romans doesn't belong. Even if they are utterly false.
You have subjectified truth. If not, PLEASE tell me on what authority you claim your list of inspired canonical books.
I'm waiting.
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 18 2010,18:35) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 19 2010,10:25) Ca So when Jesus said “where two or three are gathered together in his name there he would be in the midst' was not true and they are not members of his Body the Church?
Where two or three are in his name “Jesus” blessed!
But you and your religion says no!
Are our bodys the “Temple of God”? If so does God dwell in them and would that not also be his body and his Church?
Did Jesus say that he and the Father would come and make their abode in us if we keep his words and love him?
Why do you limit God the Holy Spirit to a physical organization?
Blessings WJ
Why don't you apply the consistent hermeneutic to this issue as you do to the Trinity? Why do you start proof-texting when it comes to the Church?Let's take the Scripture you raise IN CONTEXT:
“And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven. Again I say to you, that if two of you shall consent upon earth, concerning any thing whatsoever they shall ask, it shall be done to them by my Father who is in heaven. For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.“
Hmm…
Look at the word “For” at the beginning of the sentence you quote. Notice that this conjunction directly connects the sentence to the preceding statements?
Jesus is telling how to settle disputes IN THE CHURCH
Jesus is assuming that there is a physical CHURCH for people to appeal to. (notice here he does not say “churches” plural, but church)
Please tell me you can see this.
CAIsn't that what I am saying?
That the Church is the gathering together of 2 or three or more?
I know you must know what the Greek word for Church means don't you?
It simply means “a gathering”. The Church is not buildings or an organization.
It is the gathering together of two or three believers in Jesus name and he promises he will be in the midst!
In the context Jesus says that when two shall agree in prayer in his name that the prayers would be heard and answered. Why did you leave out that verse?
Are you saying that our prayers are limited to the RCC?
Jesus words is not limiting his Church to a physical building or one Location!
The Boldy of Christ is a living entity comprised of every believer that has been baptised into his Body by drinking of that One Spirit!
Your Church says the words in the scriptures are Inspired of God and I agree.
Then why don't you show me where the scriptures I mention are not true for all believers that come together in his name?
Blessings WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 20 2010,05:40) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 18 2010,18:35) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 19 2010,10:25) Ca So when Jesus said “where two or three are gathered together in his name there he would be in the midst' was not true and they are not members of his Body the Church?
Where two or three are in his name “Jesus” blessed!
But you and your religion says no!
Are our bodys the “Temple of God”? If so does God dwell in them and would that not also be his body and his Church?
Did Jesus say that he and the Father would come and make their abode in us if we keep his words and love him?
Why do you limit God the Holy Spirit to a physical organization?
Blessings WJ
Why don't you apply the consistent hermeneutic to this issue as you do to the Trinity? Why do you start proof-texting when it comes to the Church?Let's take the Scripture you raise IN CONTEXT:
“And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven. Again I say to you, that if two of you shall consent upon earth, concerning any thing whatsoever they shall ask, it shall be done to them by my Father who is in heaven. For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.“
Hmm…
Look at the word “For” at the beginning of the sentence you quote. Notice that this conjunction directly connects the sentence to the preceding statements?
Jesus is telling how to settle disputes IN THE CHURCH
Jesus is assuming that there is a physical CHURCH for people to appeal to. (notice here he does not say “churches” plural, but church)
Please tell me you can see this.
CAIsn't that what I am saying?
That the Church is the gathering together of 2 or three or more?
I know you must know what the Greek word for Church means don't you?
It simply means “a gathering”. The Church is not buildings or an organization.
It is the gathering together of two or three believers in Jesus name and he promises he will be in the midst!
In the context Jesus says that when two shall agree in prayer in his name that the prayers would be heard and answered. Why did you leave out that verse?
Are you saying that our prayers are limited to the RCC?
Jesus words is not limiting his Church to a physical building or one Location!
The Boldy of Christ is a living entity comprised of every believer that has been baptised into his Body by drinking of that One Spirit!
Your Church says the words in the scriptures are Inspired of God and I agree.
Then why don't you show me where the scriptures I mention are not true for all believers that come together in his name?
Blessings WJ
WJ,Before I give you a more full response, I want to ask you to clarify something for me.
Do you believe that unity of faith (belief) is NOT essential for the true Church?
This is an essential question for me to have answered. Please let me know where you stand.
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,13:55) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 20 2010,05:40) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 18 2010,18:35) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 19 2010,10:25) Ca So when Jesus said “where two or three are gathered together in his name there he would be in the midst' was not true and they are not members of his Body the Church?
Where two or three are in his name “Jesus” blessed!
But you and your religion says no!
Are our bodys the “Temple of God”? If so does God dwell in them and would that not also be his body and his Church?
Did Jesus say that he and the Father would come and make their abode in us if we keep his words and love him?
Why do you limit God the Holy Spirit to a physical organization?
Blessings WJ
Why don't you apply the consistent hermeneutic to this issue as you do to the Trinity? Why do you start proof-texting when it comes to the Church?Let's take the Scripture you raise IN CONTEXT:
“And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven. Again I say to you, that if two of you shall consent upon earth, concerning any thing whatsoever they shall ask, it shall be done to them by my Father who is in heaven. For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.“
Hmm…
Look at the word “For” at the beginning of the sentence you quote. Notice that this conjunction directly connects the sentence to the preceding statements?
Jesus is telling how to settle disputes IN THE CHURCH
Jesus is assuming that there is a physical CHURCH for people to appeal to. (notice here he does not say “churches” plural, but church)
Please tell me you can see this.
CAIsn't that what I am saying?
That the Church is the gathering together of 2 or three or more?
I know you must know what the Greek word for Church means don't you?
It simply means “a gathering”. The Church is not buildings or an organization.
It is the gathering together of two or three believers in Jesus name and he promises he will be in the midst!
In the context Jesus says that when two shall agree in prayer in his name that the prayers would be heard and answered. Why did you leave out that verse?
Are you saying that our prayers are limited to the RCC?
Jesus words is not limiting his Church to a physical building or one Location!
The Boldy of Christ is a living entity comprised of every believer that has been baptised into his Body by drinking of that One Spirit!
Your Church says the words in the scriptures are Inspired of God and I agree.
Then why don't you show me where the scriptures I mention are not true for all believers that come together in his name?
Blessings WJ
WJ,Before I give you a more full response, I want to ask you to clarify something for me.
Do you believe that unity of faith (belief) is NOT essential for the true Church?
This is an essential question for me to have answered. Please let me know where you stand.
CAUnity of the faith in what way? There are many tenets of the faith!
Are you saying that if you do not agree perfectly in your faith that you cannot be the True Church?
The Acts of the Apostles shows lots of division among the Apostles.
Paul spoke to the Corinthains and rebuked them often for their divisions!
He spoke to the Philipians about having “One Mind and One Spirit!
Peter spoke of having “One Spirit”.
It seems you think because there are divisions in the Church then it cannot be the Church.
But the scriptures that the CC hold to be inspired by God does not agree with that idea!
Paul in his letter to the Ephesians said…
With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; “Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace“..
“Till we all come in the unity of the faith“, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Contexually Paul is saying that they had not come to a complete (Perfect, mature man) and to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ yet.
Though they had the gifts and the callings, and the “basic tenets of the faith” they had not yet come to “complete and total unity” in the faith which would happen when they come to a “perfect, mature man”!
Are you prepared to say that all CC members have come to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ, by complete Unity in faith or that there are no divisions?
Even if there were that doesn't in and of itself prove anything. The JWs and Mormons can make the same claim!
Blessings WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 20 2010,06:32) CatholicApologist,Feb. wrote:[quote=WorshippingJesus,Feb. 20 2010,05:40]
CatholicApologist,Feb. wrote:[quote=WorshippingJesus,Feb. 19 2010,10:25]Ca
CA
Unity of the faith in what way? There are many tenants of the faith!
Are you saying that if you do not agree perfectly in your faith that you cannot be the True Church?
The Acts of the Apostles shows lots of division among the Apostles.
Paul spoke to the Corinthains and rebuked them often for their divisions!
He spoke to the Philipians about having “One Mind and One Spirit!
Peter spoke of having “One Spirit”.
It seems you think because there are divisions in the Church then it cannot be the Church.
But the scriptures that the CC hold to be inspired by God does not agree with that idea!
Paul in his letter to the Ephesians said…
With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; “Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace“..
“Till we all come in the unity of the faith“, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Contexually Paul is saying that they had not come to a complete (Perfect, mature man) and to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ yet.
Though they had the gifts and the callings, and the “basic tenants of the faith” they had not yet come to “complete and total unity” in the faith which would happen when they come to a “perfect, mature man”!
Are you prepared to say that all CC members have come to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ, by complete Unity in faith or that there are no divisions?
Even if there were that doesn't in and of itself prove anything. The JWs and Mormons can make the same claim!
Blessings WJ
Quote Unity of the faith in what way? There are many tenants of the faith! To use your own standard, where do you read “tenants of the faith” in the Bible? You just read “say the same thing”, “no divisions among you”, etc.
Quote Are you saying that if you do not agree perfectly in your faith that you cannot be the True Church? Yes. It is a mortal sin to willingly doubt infallible Church teaching. The key word is “willingly” or “willfully”. This leaves exception for ignorance.
“he that believes…shall be saved” “he that believes not…shall be damnded”
Quote The Acts of the Apostles shows lots of division among the Apostles. Poppycock! There are NO doctrinal disagreements between the apostles in Scripture. Show me one!
Paul and Barnabas did NOT split over a doctrinal issue
Paul disputed with Peter over hypocrisy (his failure to live up to WHAT HE HIMSELF BELIEVED AND TAUGHT). NOT because Peter didn't believe that Gentiles belonged in the Church or that they were second class. Peter didn't teach that and you know it. The issue was hypocrisy.
Get real. This type of dishonesty does not please the Lord.
Quote Paul spoke to the Corinthains and rebuked them often for their divisions! And those that did not repent were expelled from the Church (Go read 1 Cor 5 again).
Besides, divisions were CONDEMNED. Not upheld as a normal part of Christian life. An authoritative Church dealt with these issues and passed judgment.
Please be honest.
Quote He spoke to the Philipians about having “One Mind and One Spirit! Yes. Amen.
Quote Peter spoke of having “One Spirit”. Yes. And the Holy Spirit is grieved when we entertain deception.
Quote It seems you think because there are divisions in the Church then it cannot be the Church. Doctrinal divisions in the Church ALWAYS lead to heresies coming to light. And to heretics being expelled. And the Church moving forward in UNITY of the faith and Spirit.
Quote But the scriptures that the CC hold to be inspired by God does not agree with that idea! I've just shown you very plainly that the Scriptures refute your untenable claim.
Quote With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; “Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace“.. “Till we all come in the unity of the faith“, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Contexually Paul is saying that they had not come to a complete (Perfect, mature man) and to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ yet.
Moral perfection and Doctrinal Truth are two different issues. We are all called to be perfect as the Father is perfect. This is a sanctification issue (living out the revealed truth). NOT a doctrinal issue.
Do you REALLY believe that Paul taught one thing and Peter taught another?
If you do I have lost a great deal of respect for you.
Quote Though they had the gifts and the callings, and the “basic tenants of the faith” they had not yet come to “complete and total unity” in the faith which would happen when they come to a “perfect, mature man”! So let me get this straight. YOU believe that there were divergent opinions about the faith being taught.
Please stop using the term “basic tenants of the faith” since it is outside your Bible alone premise. You are allowing Protestant tradition into your polemic. This is an extra-Biblical phrase. You do not accept those.
Quote Are you prepared to say that all CC members have come to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ, by complete Unity in faith or that there are no divisions? All faithful Catholics are “faithful” if they are living in the state of grace and have complete UNITY of belief as to infallible Church teaching. But please do not confuse sanctification with faith. Though they are related issues, they are different issues.
Quote Even if there were that doesn't in and of itself prove anything. The JWs and Mormons can make the same claim! Except the JWs and Mormons are new and strange groups that claim with Protestant heretics that the truth was lost for over a thousand years at least. You are with them in believing that the gates of hell prevailed over the Church if even for a time.
CA
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 19 2010,14:32) Unity of the faith in what way? There are many tenets of the faith! Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,14:54)
To use your own standard, where do you read “tenets of the faith” in the Bible?
OK, I have corrected the spelling. It should be “Tenets”!Come on CA, I expect better of you than this! Can you tell me that you do not use extra-Biblical terms?
Where do you find “Immaculate Conception” or “Incarnation” or “God begat God” in the Bible? Is your statement meant to only demean?
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,14:54)
You just read “say the same thing”, “no divisions among you”, etc.
True, and why would the Apostle mention speaking the same things and having no divisions if they were speaking the same things and had no divisions?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 19 2010,14:32) Are you saying that if you do not agree perfectly in your faith that you cannot be the True Church? Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,14:54)
Yes. It is a mortal sin to willingly doubt infallible Church teaching. The key word is “willingly” or “willfully”. This leaves exception for ignorance.
Where is the “Extra Biblical” term “infallible Church” found in the Bible?Where is the scripture that says it is a “mortal sin” to not agree with a particular doctrine?
You didn’t answer the question, but you did say…
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,14:54)
“he that believes…shall be saved” “he that believes not…shall be damnded”
I believe and so do all my brothers and sisters in the Lord! Shall you become a judge of men’s hearts? You keep dodging my question…“Can a person be saved apart from the CC?”
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 19 2010,14:32) The Acts of the Apostles shows lots of division among the Apostles. Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,14:54)
Poppycock! There are NO doctrinal disagreements between the apostles in Scripture. Show me one!Paul and Barnabas did NOT split over a doctrinal issue
Paul disputed with Peter over hypocrisy (his failure to live up to WHAT HE HIMSELF BELIEVED AND TAUGHT). NOT because Peter didn't believe that Gentiles belonged in the Church or that they were second class. Peter didn't teach that and you know it. The issue was hypocrisy.
Get real. This type of dishonesty does not please the Lord.
So now you accuse me of dishonesty? Did I mention the word “Doctrine”? My point was they were divided and yes it was over the hypocrisy of a doctrinal issue!The Corinthian Church was rebuked for their divisions saying they were of Paul or of Apollo or of Cephas, or of Christ. But you say that if this is going on then they cannot be the “True Church”. Tell me CA, did the Apostles then preach all the doctrines of the CC? I don’t think so! When were most of the doctrines of the CC formulated? Can you point me to the proof?
The CC had many splits and doctrinal divisions and disagreements over the centuries! But according to you this cannot happen to the “True Church or “Infallible Church”!
So your point is a moot point!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 19 2010,14:32) Paul spoke to the Corinthians and rebuked them often for their divisions! Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,14:54)
And those that did not repent were expelled from the Church (Go read 1 Cor 5 again).Besides, divisions were CONDEMNED. Not upheld as a normal part of Christian life. An authoritative Church dealt with these issues and passed judgment.
Your point is? Many Non-CC Churches as well as Protestant practice the same thing!Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,14:54)
Please be honest.
Why do you assume that I am being dishonest? Why do you accuse me?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 19 2010,14:32) He spoke to the Philippians about having “One Mind and One Spirit! Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,14:54)
Yes. Amen.
Wow, a Catholic giving an alleged “Heretic” an Amen! Paul made the statement because they were not with “One mind and Spirit”.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 19 2010,14:32) Peter spoke of having “One Spirit”. Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,14:54)
Yes. And the Holy Spirit is grieved when we entertain deception.
True! Peter also said…Finally, “be ye all of one mind”, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous: made this statement because they 1 Peter 3:8
It would do both the Catholics and the Protestants to take heed to Peter’s words by having compassion to one another!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 19 2010,14:32) It seems you think because there are divisions in the Church then it cannot be the Church. Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,14:54)
Doctrinal divisions in the Church ALWAYS lead to heresies coming to light. And to heretics being expelled. And the Church moving forward in UNITY of the faith and Spirit.
You are evading my point! Let me put it to you in the form of a question.Do you believe that the Church had to be in perfect agreement in doctrine to be the True Church?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 19 2010,14:32) But the scriptures that the CC hold to be inspired by God does not agree with that idea! Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,14:54)
I've just shown you very plainly that the Scriptures refute your untenable claim.
In your mind you think you have. But the history of the CC denies your claim!Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 19 2010,14:32) With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; “Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace“.. “Till we all come in the unity of the faith“, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Contextually Paul is saying that they had not come to a complete (Perfect, mature man) and to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ yet.
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,14:54)
Moral perfection and Doctrinal Truth are two different issues. We are all called to be perfect as the Father is perfect. This is a sanctification issue (living out the revealed truth). NOT a doctrinal issue.
Well I am glad that you admit “We are all called to be perfect as the Father is perfect”, but, I do not see how you can be morally perfect if you do not know the Truth!Paul says, “Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace”.. Till we all come in the **unity of the faith**“, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ!
I do not see the words “Moral perfection” in these verses!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 19 2010,14:32) Do you REALLY believe that Paul taught one thing and Peter taught another?
No not at all. Peter also addressed divisions in the Church, which you imply cannot be the True Church unless there is perfect unity!Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,14:54)
If you do I have lost a great deal of respect for you.
I do not sense much respect from you CA. You have labeled everything that walks and speaks that is not Catholic as Heretics!Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 19 2010,14:32) Though they had the gifts and the callings, and the “basic tenets of the faith” they had not yet come to “complete and total unity” in the faith which would happen when they come to a “perfect, mature man”! Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,14:54)
So let me get this straight. YOU believe that there were divergent opinions about the faith being taught.
I believe that they were not “perfect in their faith” or Paul would not have spoken about “Unity of the Faith”. Maybe you should clarify what you mean by “The Faith”, for it is obvious in scriptures there were “divergent opinions” concerning Unity of the Faith!Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,14:54)
Please stop using the term “basic tenets of the faith” since it is outside your Bible alone premise. You are allowing Protestant tradition into your polemic. This is an extra-Biblical phrase. You do not accept those.
Sure, if you promise not to use the words “Eucharist” or “Blessed Sacrament”, or “Immaculate Conception” or “Catholics”, for those also are extra-Biblical terms!Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 19 2010,14:32) Are you prepared to say that all CC members have come to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ, by complete Unity in faith or that there are no divisions? Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,14:54)
All faithful Catholics are “faithful” if they are living in the state of grace and have complete UNITY of belief as to infallible Church teaching. But please do not confuse sanctification with faith. Though they are related issues, they are different issues.
“All faithful Catholics”? “if they are living in the state of grace”?Sorry this isn’t ans
wering the question! So let me rephrase it using your terminology!Are there any Catholics that do not have “complete UNITY of belief as to infallible Church teaching”?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 19 2010,14:32) Even if there were that doesn't in and of itself prove anything. The JWs and Mormons can make the same claim! Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,14:54)
Except the JWs and Mormons are new and strange groups that claim with Protestant heretics that the truth was lost for over a thousand years at least.
What truth are you speaking of?Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,14:54)
You are with them in believing that the gates of hell prevailed over the Church if even for a time.
I nor any protestant believes that the Gates of hell can or ever has prevailed against the “True Church” which is his Body, and not a building or organization, but rather a living entity made up of every believer who as been baptized into his Body by drinking of the One Spirit! The difference is in the definition of the “True Church” which you seem to imply is buildings or a physical organization!Buildings and organizations can and will be destroyed!
As for Saul, “he made havock of the church”, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison. Acts 8:3
And when they were come, and “had gathered the church together”, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles. Acts 14:27
Likewise “greet the church that is in their house”. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ. Rom 16:5
”If therefore the whole church be come together into one place”, and all speak with tongues, and there come in [those that are] unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? 1 Cor 14:23
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and “church of the firstborn”, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 2:5
Would your eyes let you see that the Church is “an assembly” of believers, a spiritual house, the Temple of God, that could and has been in houses and buildings from the days of the Acts and throughout history and to this present day?
Blessings WJ
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 20 2010,05:18) Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 19 2010,20:09) CA I don't think that you know, that the reason your church is called, “ROMAN CATHOLIC (universal) CHURCH”, is because of the emperor Constantine. Before his time there was no Catholic , or Roman church; there was just a church that called themselves Christians.
Constantine even persecuted the Christians, and the Jews, until 313 AD, when he stopped all persecution; and then in 324 AD, he made this religion, Christianity, the religion of the empire, it became universal. And the fact that it was called “Roman” should be obvious.
You know what Lincoln said, “you can fool some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time”.Georg
I am going to add to this that the Books that you are talking about, are the Books that only the Catholics have and are not in the Original Transcripts. Who is the Hypocrite, look in the mirror you will find him there….And for your information we own a Catholic Bible with Pictures of the so called Pope's in them. A Wedding Present 49 years ago, we were Catholics then and now I am forever thankful to God that God called us out. I want to tell you something that should even surprise you. When we first started with the AW.W.Church of God. We had one of their Minister come and speak to us. Afterwards we called our Parish Priest and asked Him all kinds of questions. At one point He told my Husband and I quote:” God is calling you.” He knew, but because of the job that was easy money, He stayed. I think. I think today a lot of Ministers and Priests are in for it for personal gain, whether it is power or money…But i know you are not going to agree with that.:)
Irene
Georg,I have corrected this before. The official name of the Church is not and never has been “Roman” Catholic. It is the Catholic Church. I am NOT a “Roman” Catholic. I am under the Patriarch of Antioch, one of the ancient five major Patriarchal sees. The pope is the Patriarch of Rome. So you see, you don't understand your history. The first council of Nicea was NOT convened in Rome, but in the East. Ignatius of Antioch, successor of St. Peter who knew the apostles referred to the Church as the Catholic Church. Constantine would not be born for generations after this.
So quit your lies and deception.
Constantine was never a pope. He didn't sabotage the church. This is easily proven by looking at what the Church fathers believed BEFORE Constantine. BTW, Tertullian became a heretic.
CAThe first council of Nicea was held in 325 AD, Constantine presided over it, 318 bishops attended it.
Why did you tell me it was not in Rome, did I say it was?
The reason the church was called Catholic-universal- was because it became the Roman empires religion, as I have stated. They were neither united nor disciplined, neither did they have a pope. It was Roman emperor Justinian who in 533 AD decided that the bishop of Rome should hold that title, papa, or pope and, that the pope of Rome should be the head over all bishops.
But, you see, there was still a title missing, PONTIFEX MAXIMUS, “Chief” religious ruler. And no pope dared to claim “that” title until after Justinian's death, ever wonder why? because it was also a title of the Roman emperor, and no one dared to claim that title as long as there was an emperor around. Then in 565 AD Justinian died, and since no other emperor was able to control the west, the pope took over; he became the ruler, tyrant is a better description.
You see, that is why the Bible refers to him as the image of the beast/government, Rev. 13:14.
Why image? because
the pope became the emperor.
the cardinals became the senators,
the bishops became the governors,
and the priests and monks became the mayors.
Do you know why he is referred to as the beast out of the “earth”, earth meaning people, he emerged from the people, verse 11.
You know why the Bible says he appeared as a lamb, you do know that Christ is the Lamb right? why is what he spoke of the dragon/devil? his doctrines were not what Christ had taught, that is the perverted gospel Paul spoke of back in Gal. 1:6,7.
He never was a king, he had no kingdom, he had no army, and yet he forced every one to obey him, if they did not, he had them killed, verse 15.
I guess you don't know that the pope is the Antichrist, do you?
You talk about being saved, you should know this, this is the system the Bible says, “come out of her my people”, are you God's people? don't think you are, know for sure.
Unless you are uninformed, I say you are the one that is spreading lies, and deception.
I know Tertullian left the church, after he had done his damage.Georg
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 20 2010,05:39) Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 19 2010,20:09) CA I don't think that you know, that the reason your church is called, “ROMAN CATHOLIC (universal) CHURCH”, is because of the emperor Constantine. Before his time there was no Catholic , or Roman church; there was just a church that called themselves Christians.
Constantine even persecuted the Christians, and the Jews, until 313 AD, when he stopped all persecution; and then in 324 AD, he made this religion, Christianity, the religion of the empire, it became universal. And the fact that it was called “Roman” should be obvious.
You know what Lincoln said, “you can fool some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time”.Georg
I am going to add to this that the Books that you are talking about, are the Books that only the Catholics have and are not in the Original Transcripts. Who is the Hypocrite, look in the mirror you will find him there….And for your information we own a Catholic Bible with Pictures of the so called Pope's in them. A Wedding Present 49 years ago, we were Catholics then and now I am forever thankful to God that God called us out. I want to tell you something that should even surprise you. When we first started with the AW.W.Church of God. We had one of their Minister come and speak to us. Afterwards we called our Parish Priest and asked Him all kinds of questions. At one point He told my Husband and I quote:” God is calling you.” He knew, but because of the job that was easy money, He stayed. I think. I think today a lot of Ministers and Priests are in for it for personal gain, whether it is power or money…But i know you are not going to agree with that.:)
Irene
Irene,On what authority do you rely to compile the list of books you claim belong in the Bible? How do you determine the canon?
If you say, I just prayed and God showed me. Then you MUST allow for someone else to pray and say that God showed them that the book of Romans doesn't belong. Even if they are utterly false.
You have subjectified truth. If not, PLEASE tell me on what authority you claim your list of inspired canonical books.
I'm waiting.
I think my Husband explained real good, how I feel about the Catholic Church also.
IreneQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 20 2010,09:39) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 19 2010,14:32) Unity of the faith in what way? There are many tenets of the faith! Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,14:54)
To use your own standard, where do you read “tenets of the faith” in the Bible?
OK, I have corrected the spelling. It should be “Tenets”!Come on CA, I expect better of you than this! Can you tell me that you do not use extra-Biblical terms?
Where do you find “Immaculate Conception” or “Incarnation” or “God begat God” in the Bible? Is your statement meant to only demean?
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,14:54)
You just read “say the same thing”, “no divisions among you”, etc.
True, and why would the Apostle mention speaking the same things and having no divisions if they were speaking the same things and had no divisions?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 19 2010,14:32) Are you saying that if you do not agree perfectly in your faith that you cannot be the True Church? Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,14:54)
Yes. It is a mortal sin to willingly doubt infallible Church teaching. The key word is “willingly” or “willfully”. This leaves exception for ignorance.
Where is the “Extra Biblical” term “infallible Church” found in the Bible?Where is the scripture that says it is a “mortal sin” to not agree with a particular doctrine?
You didn’t answer the question, but you did say…
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,14:54)
“he that believes…shall be saved” “he that believes not…shall be damnded”
I believe and so do all my brothers and sisters in the Lord! Shall you become a judge of men’s hearts? You keep dodging my question…“Can a person be saved apart from the CC?”
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 19 2010,14:32) The Acts of the Apostles shows lots of division among the Apostles. Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,14:54)
Poppycock! There are NO doctrinal disagreements between the apostles in Scripture. Show me one!Paul and Barnabas did NOT split over a doctrinal issue
Paul disputed with Peter over hypocrisy (his failure to live up to WHAT HE HIMSELF BELIEVED AND TAUGHT). NOT because Peter didn't believe that Gentiles belonged in the Church or that they were second class. Peter didn't teach that and you know it. The issue was hypocrisy.
Get real. This type of dishonesty does not please the Lord.
So now you accuse me of dishonesty? Did I mention the word “Doctrine”? My point was they were divided and yes it was over the hypocrisy of a doctrinal issue!The Corinthian Church was rebuked for their divisions saying they were of Paul or of Apollo or of Cephas, or of Christ. But you say that if this is going on then they cannot be the “True Church”. Tell me CA, did the Apostles then preach all the doctrines of the CC? I don’t think so! When were most of the doctrines of the CC formulated? Can you point me to the proof?
The CC had many splits and doctrinal divisions and disagreements over the centuries! But according to you this cannot happen to the “True Church or “Infallible Church”!
So your point is a moot point!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 19 2010,14:32) Paul spoke to the Corinthians and rebuked them often for their divisions! Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,14:54)
And those that did not repent were expelled from the Church (Go read 1 Cor 5 again).Besides, divisions were CONDEMNED. Not upheld as a normal part of Christian life. An authoritative Church dealt with these issues and passed judgment.
Your point is? Many Non-CC Churches as well as Protestant practice the same thing!Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,14:54)
Please be honest.
Why do you assume that I am being dishonest? Why do you accuse me?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 19 2010,14:32) He spoke to the Philippians about having “One Mind and One Spirit! Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,14:54)
Yes. Amen.
Wow, a Catholic giving an alleged “Heretic” an Amen! Paul made the statement because they were not with “One mind and Spirit”.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 19 2010,14:32) Peter spoke of having “One Spirit”. Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,14:54)
Yes. And the Holy Spirit is grieved when we entertain deception.
True! Peter also said…Finally, “be ye all of one mind”, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous: made this statement because they 1 Peter 3:8
It would do both the Catholics and the Protestants to take heed to Peter’s words by having compassion to one another!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 19 2010,14:32) It seems you think because there are divisions in the Church then it cannot be the Church. Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,14:54)
Doctrinal divisions in the Church ALWAYS lead to heresies coming to light. And to heretics being expelled. And the Church moving forward in UNITY of the faith and Spirit.
You are evading my point! Let me put it to you in the form of a question.Do you believe that the Church had to be in perfect agreement in doctrine to be the True Church?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 19 2010,14:32) But the scriptures that the CC hold to be inspired by God does not agree with that idea! Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,14:54)
I've just shown you very plainly that the Scriptures refute your untenable claim.
In your mind you think you have. But the history of the CC denies your claim!Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 19 2010,14:32) With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; “Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace“.. “Till we all come in the unity of the faith“, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Contextually Paul is saying that they had not come to a complete (Perfect, mature man) and to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ yet.
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,14:54)
Moral perfection and Doctrinal Truth are two different issues. We are all called to be perfect as the Father is perfect. This is a sanctification issue (living out the revealed truth). NOT a doctrinal issue.
Well I am glad that you admit “We are all called to be perfect as the Father is perfect”, but, I do not see how you can be morally perfect if you do not know the Truth!Paul says, “Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace”.. Till we all come in the **unity of the faith**“, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ!
I do not see the words “Moral perfection” in these verses!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 19 2010,14:32) Do you REALLY believe that Paul taught one thing and Peter taught another?
No not at all. Peter also addressed divisions in the Church, which you imply cannot be the True Church unless there is perfect unity!Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,14:54)
If you do I have lost a great deal of respect for you.
I do not sense much respect from you CA. You have labeled everything that walks and speaks that is not Catholic as Heretics!Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 19 2010,14:32) Though they had the gifts and the callings, and the “basic tenets of the faith” they had not yet come to “complete and total unity” in the faith which would happen when they come to a “perfect, mature man”! Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,14:54)
So let me get this straight. YOU believe that there were divergent opinions about the faith being taught.
I believe that they were not “perfect in their faith” or Paul would not have spoken about “Unity of the Faith”. Maybe you should clarify what you mean by “The Faith”, for it is obvious in scriptures there were “divergent opinions” concerning Unity of the Faith!Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,14:54)
Please stop using the term “basic tenets of the faith” since it is outside your Bible alone premise. You are allowing Protestant tradition into your polemic. This is an extra-Biblical phrase. You do not accept those.
Sure, if you promise not to use the words “Eucharist” or “Blessed Sacrament”, or “Immaculate Conception” or “Catholics”, for those also are extra-Biblical terms!Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 19 2010,14:32) Are you prepared to say that all CC members have come to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ, by complete Unity in faith or that there are no divisions? Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,14:54)
All faithful Catholics are “faithful” if they are living in the state of grace and have complete UNITY of belief as to infallible Church teaching. But please do not confuse sanctific
ation with faith. Though they are related issues, they are different issues.
“All faithful Catholics”? “if they are living in the state of grace”?Sorry this isn’t answering the question! So let me rephrase it using your terminology!
Are there any Catholics that do not have “complete UNITY of belief as to infallible Church teaching”?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 19 2010,14:32) Even if there were that doesn't in and of itself prove anything. The JWs and Mormons can make the same claim! Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,14:54)
Except the JWs and Mormons are new and strange groups that claim with Protestant heretics that the truth was lost for over a thousand years at least.
What truth are you speaking of?Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,14:54)
You are with them in believing that the gates of hell prevailed over the Church if even for a time.
I nor any protestant believes that the Gates of hell can or ever has prevailed against the “True Church” which is his Body, and not a building or organization, but rather a living entity made up of every believer who as been baptized into his Body by drinking of the One Spirit! The difference is in the definition of the “True Church” which you seem to imply is buildings or a physical organization!Buildings and organizations can and will be destroyed!
As for Saul, “he made havock of the church”, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison. Acts 8:3
And when they were come, and “had gathered the church together”, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles. Acts 14:27
Likewise “greet the church that is in their house”. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ. Rom 16:5
”If therefore the whole church be come together into one place”, and all speak with tongues, and there come in [those that are] unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? 1 Cor 14:23
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and “church of the firstborn”, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 2:5
Would your eyes let you see that the Church is “an assembly” of believers, a spiritual house, the Temple of God, that could and has been in houses and buildings form the Acts and throughout history and to this present day?
Blessings WJ
Quote Come on CA, I expect better of you than this! Can you tell me that you do not use extra-Biblical terms? Yes I do! I readily admit that. Apparently you didn't get what I was pointing out. I…am not the one holding to Sola Scriptura. So I am not bound by a standard I reject. But you should be held to the standard you espouse. You constantly ask “show me that in the Bible.” Well, someone needs to show you your hypocrisy. You don't read “in the Bible” about the minimum “tenets of the faith” each Christian must subscribe to. This is an extra-Biblical statement, thought, idea…which you eschew.
Quote Where do you find “Immaculate Conception” or “Incarnation” or “God begat God” in the Bible? Is your statement meant to only demean? No, dude, don't get so emotional. I'm not trying to demean you. I'm trying to point out inconsistencies you may not recognize.
Quote why would the Apostle mention speaking the same things and having no divisions if they were speaking the same things and had no divisions? The possibility is there among men of free will. But here is where you and I part ways. The true Church is preserved from binding error on the faithful. The true Church by definition CANNOT teach heresy.
So, for example, the Arian bishops had separated themselves from the true Church.
Quote Where is the “Extra Biblical” term “infallible Church” found in the Bible? I don't have those concerns. I am not holding myself to the self-refuting proposition of Sola Scriptura.
Quote Where is the scripture that says it is a “mortal sin” to not agree with a particular doctrine? Where in the Scriptures do the Scriptures claim to be an exclusive manual for finding truth?
Quote Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,14:54)
“he that believes…shall be saved” “he that believes not…shall be damnded”
I believe and so do all my brothers and sisters in the Lord! Shall you become a judge of men’s hearts?You DON'T believe the apostle's preaching (Mk. 16:15). You don't believe. You are NOT a believer.
You can't say “I believe in Jesus, therefore I am a believer.” If that is the case Sung Yung Moon is a believer.
Quote You keep dodging my question… “Can a person be saved apart from the CC?”
NO! There is NO salvation outside of the Catholic Church! I thought I made that clear.
Quote So now you accuse me of dishonesty? Yes because you know the Scriptures and you KNOW that NO apostle contradicted the others preaching and teaching. (save Judas Iscariot)
Quote Did I mention the word “Doctrine”? My point was they were divided and yes it was over the hypocrisy of a doctrinal issue! You can't weasel your way out of this. Please admit it. No apostle contradicted the others preaching. Admit you were wrong in claiming that the apostles did not have the unity of the faith. They all had the same faith.
Quote The Corinthian Church was rebuked for their divisions saying they were of Paul or of Apollo or of Cephas, or of Christ. But you say that if this is going on then they cannot be the “True Church”. I am not saying that Catholics cannot disagree about anything and remain Catholics. I am saying that Catholics cannot reject Church teaching without spiritual penalty. I am also saying that the true Church is prevented by Heaven from teaching heresy.
[QUOTETell me CA, did the Apostles then preach all the doctrines of the CC? ][/QUOTE]
Yes. Of course.
Quote I don’t think so! When were most of the doctrines of the CC formulated? Catholic doctrine has been proclaimed and believed from the beginning. It is usually only when heresy arises challenging the constant teaching of the Church that the Church steps in and defines a doctrine to settle any dispute.
Quote Can you point me to the proof? Sure. The proof is in the Church Jesus founded. The NT Scriptures testify of the Church and it's apostolic authority. Remember, Jesus didn't say “whoever reads this book, hears Me” but He DID say to His apostles “whoever hears you hears me.” I invite you to hear the Master.
Quote The CC had many splits and doctrinal divisions and disagreements over the centuries! Yeah, the heretics (false church) left. The faithful (true Church) stayed. And your point is?
You can't compare this with the way you Prots fellowship with one another across so-called “church” lines. We do not recognize the legitimacy of Donatists or Arians or Protestants churches or their belief systems.
Quote But according to you this cannot happen to the “True Church or “Infallible Church”! What CANNOT happen is for the true Church to defect from the true faith. That has not happened in 2,000 years. I never claimed that heretics could not arise from within the church and cause division. But those heretics and their followers “went out from us, but they were not of us. For if they had been of us, they would no doubt have remained with us; but that they may be manifest, that they are not all of us.” (1 John 2:19)
Quote So your point is a moot point! No. You have yet to prove that the true Church has ever defected from the true faith. I'm standing on a mountain. You are standing on sand.
Quote Your point is? Many Non-CC Churches as well as Protestant practice the same thing! You've got one problem. Which one is the TRUE Church? See you really need to pick one. If you don't you have a contradiction. You will have a Wesleyan expelling someone for believing OSAS. And you will have a Calvinist expelling someone for believing that a saved person can “lose” their salvation.
Where is the true Church that if a person defects from it, they are damned?
Quote Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,14:54)
Please be honest.
Why do you assume that I am being dishonest? Why do you accuse me?This was a plea for honesty. Before I did claim you were not being honest. Why?
Because these things are self evident. It is just hard to believe that you would make some of the statements you do. Sorry about the accusation.
Quote Wow, a Catholic giving an alleged “Heretic” an Amen! Not quite. You quoted the Bible. The Bible got an Amen. Not what you were saying.
Quote True! Peter also said… Finally, “be ye all of one mind”, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous: made this statement because they 1 Peter 3:8
It would do both the Catholics and the Protestants to take heed to Peter’s words by having compassion to one another!
I DO have great compassion for you. Why do you think I am trying to help you see the error of your beliefs? Because I enjoy taking time away from my lovely wife and kids? No way. I love your soul and want to see you in Heaven.
Quote Do you believe that the Church had to be in perfect agreement in doctrine to be the True Church? Yes…if you mean that every member of the Church had to agree with the teaching of the Church to be truly part of it. The true Church cannot bind for belief something that is false upon the faithful.
Church leaders can personally err. Laity can err. But when they do so, they do not speak on behalf of the Church but themselves. Their error is their own. Not the Church's.
If you want to know what the Church has always believed, simply go to the vatican.va website and start reading. If a p
riest today defects from that doctrine, he doesn't all of a sudden speak for the Church. Do you see?Quote In your mind you think you have. But the history of the CC denies your claim! No. Actually the miracle of the whole thing is that 2,000 years of history support my claim. The Church's teaching has remained constant.
Quote Contextually Paul is saying that they had not come to a complete (Perfect, mature man) and to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ yet. How does this deny that the Church has consistently taught the faith of the apostles without wavering through the centuries? It doesn't. No, we are not yet like Christ. So?
Quote Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace Notice the word “keep”. You can only keep something you already have.
Quote unto a perfect man No moral perfection there? Huh?
Quote I do not see the words “Moral perfection” in these verses! Do you still want to stand by that statement?
Quote Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 19 2010,14:32) Do you REALLY believe that Paul taught one thing and Peter taught another?
No not at all. Peter also addressed divisions in the Church, which you imply cannot be the True Church unless there is perfect unity!Yes. Precisely. And the Church stayed unified. The heretics were expelled.
So with this new admission, you can't use differences or disputes between apostles to justify that both Welsey AND Calvin are the true Church. Or to put it another way, you can't justify that WJ AND CA are the true Church. One of us is a heretic.
Quote I do not sense much respect from you CA. You have labeled everything that walks and speaks that is not Catholic as Heretics! Maybe I have. But it is only when the Church has done so first. Why do you see calling the kettle black as disrespectful?
Quote I believe that they were not “perfect in their faith” or Paul would not have spoken about “Unity of the Faith”. Maybe you should clarify what you mean by “The Faith”, for it is obvious in scriptures there were “divergent opinions” concerning Unity of the Faith! Yes. Let's define what we are saying. Do you believe the apostles had “diverging opinions” about what the Christian faith was? If so, in what ways do you believe they differed?
The apostles were taught the faith DIRECTLY from the Lord who expounded the Scriptures to them after His resurrection. (BTW, that was not recorded in detail) They taught this faith in its entirety to the church and ordained faithful men who were able to teach others also and appointed them by the laying on of hands. The Holy Spirit has worked with the bishops in unity with the successor of Peter for two thousand years. There has been a consistent voice unwavering since the time of Christ and the apostles. The Church has been preserved from error.
Quote Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,14:54)
Please stop using the term “basic tenets of the faith” since it is outside your Bible alone premise. You are allowing Protestant tradition into your polemic. This is an extra-Biblical phrase. You do not accept those.
Sure, if you promise not to use the words “Eucharist” or “Blessed Sacrament”, or “Immaculate Conception” or “Catholics”, for those also are extra-Biblical terms!I do in fact accept extra-Biblical phrases. So I can use them all I want. Whereas you do not accept them. You have a “show me in the Bible” standard for truth. I'm just holding you to it.
Quote Are there any Catholics that do not have “complete UNITY of belief as to infallible Church teaching”? Of course there are unfaithful Catholics. But they do not teach or speak for the Church. They put their souls in jeopardy because they put themselves outside the Church.
Quote I nor any protestant believes that the Gates of hell can or ever has prevailed against the “True Church” which is his Body, and not a building or organization, but rather a living entity made up of every believer who as been baptized into his Body by drinking of the One Spirit! Then where WAS the true Church (true believers) during the first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth, etc. century? Give me some evidence that your group existed. Where are the folks that believed like they do over at first Assembly of God or Foursquare Church? Where were the Baptists/Anabaptists?
They didn't exist.
According to your belief of essential doctrines, by default, the Church disappeared for over a thousand years.
Prove me wrong.
Quote The difference is in the definition of the “True Church” which you seem to imply is buildings or a physical organization! If you mean by “organization”, the hierarchical servant-leadership of bishops and deacons set up by Christ and the apostles…YES!
Quote Buildin
gs and organizations can and will be destroyed!Buildings? Yes.
The Church organized by Christ and the apostles? NO! Never.
Quote Would your eyes let you see that the Church is “an assembly” of believers, a spiritual house, the Temple of God, that could and has been in houses and buildings form the Acts and throughout history and to this present day? Of course I see it as an assembly. We see it this way in the highest degree. We are the ones who claim it is a mortal sin to willfully remove yourself from participating in the assembly of the saints on the Lord's day. The early Catholics under Roman persecution were condemned for gathering with the “assembly”.
So yes, we grasp this better than any other group.
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