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Quote (Not3in1 @ July 18 2007,18:22) But I can tell you that it is of the utmost importance to me to get who Jesus is right.
On this point, Not3, we absolutely agree.
Hi Isaiah,
We probably agree on many points, but we've only discussed a few with one another. Remember that I cut my teeth on a Trinitarian pew!
One of the reasons I saw more truth in the Unitarian view of God versus what I had grown-up with, is that most of the answers to the questions I had of my Trinitarian pastor's and friends, were based on deductions and inference of scripture. That made me wonder what kind of foundation I had laid for myself, and my trek for truth began…….
Hi Not3,
Hmmm…are explicit declarations the gold standard for scriptural interpretation?…..I have a question for you and NH about this. In Luke 24:46-47, Yeshua is recorded to have uttered this statement:“Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
Please note – He said “it is written…” My question is this – which verse or verses in the Bible are these things explicitly written?
Blessings
Do they explicitly record that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem?
Jonah 1:17
Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.Nope. No mention of Christ here…..
Psalm 22
1My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? 2O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent. 3But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel. 4Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them. 5They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded. 6But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people. 7All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, 8He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him. 9But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
10I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly. 11Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help. 12Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round. 13They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion. 14I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. 15My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death. 16For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. 17I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. 18They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. 19But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me. 20Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog. 21Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns. 22I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee. 23Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel. 24For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard. 25My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him. 26The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever. 27All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. 28For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations. 29All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul. 30A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation. 31They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.Or here….although I certainly don't dispute that this is a Messianic text, it's far from explicit….
Psalm 69
1Save me, O God; for the waters are come in unto my soul. 2I sink in deep mire, where there is no standing: I am come into deep waters, where the floods overflow me. 3I am weary of my crying: my throat is dried: mine eyes fail while I wait for my God. 4They that hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of mine head: they that would destroy me, being mine enemies wrongfully, are mighty: then I restored that which I took not away. 5O God, thou knowest my foolishness; and my sins are not hid from thee. 6Let not them that wait on thee, O Lord GOD of hosts, be ashamed for my sake: let not those that seek thee be confounded for my sake, O God of Israel. 7Because for thy sake I have borne reproach; shame hath covered my face. 8I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother's children. 9For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up; and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me. 10When I wept, and chastened my soul with fasting, that was to my reproach. 11I made sackcloth also my garment; and I became a proverb to them. 12They that sit in the gate speak against me; and I was the song of the drunkards. 13But as for me, my prayer is unto thee, O LORD, in an acceptable time: O God, in the multitude of thy mercy hear me, in the truth of thy salvation. 14Deliver me out of the mire, and let me not sink: let me be delivered from them that hate me, and out of the deep waters. 15Let not the waterflood overflow me, neither let the deep swallow me up, and let not the pit shut her mouth upon me. 16Hear me, O LORD; for thy lovingkindness is good: turn unto me according to the multitude of thy tender mercies. 17And hide not thy face from thy servant; for I am in trouble: hear me speedily. 18Draw nigh unto my soul, and redeem it: deliver me because of mine enemies. 19Thou hast known my reproach, and my shame, and my dishonour: mine adversaries are all before thee. 20Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness: and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found none. 21They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink. 22Let their table become a snare before them: and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap. 23Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake. 24Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them. 25Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents. 26For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded. 27Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. 28Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. 29But I am poor and sorrowful: let thy salvation, O God, set me up on high. 30I will praise the name of God with a song, and will magnify him with thanksgiving. 31This also shall please the LORD better than an ox or bullock that hath horns and hoofs. 32The humble shall see this, and be glad: and your heart shall live that seek God. 33For the LORD heareth the poor, and despiseth not his prisoners. 34Let the heaven and earth praise him, the seas, and every thing that moveth therein. 35For God will save Zion, and will build the cities of Judah: that they may dwell there, and have it in possession. 36The seed also of his servants shall inherit it: and they that love his name shall dwell therein.Definatetly no explicit declarations from Luke 24:46-47 in here either….
Hi Is 1.18,
Jesus had spoken previously about the sign of Jonah.
Jesus is not mentioned by name in the OT though the Son of God is.
We do not know the detail of what he expounded from scripture to the men on the road.
But we know he covered a wide field drawing details from many places reminding them that he had already told them.
Lk 24
27And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself….44And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:”
…
Likewise he revealed his role from scripture in Lk 4
16And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
But that does not give us license to change the nature of God from what he did teach to any strange trinity.
The point I was trying to make was that Yeshua standard for what is “written” does not line up with yours. Drawing inference from scripture was evidently perfectly fine with Him. Something for you to think about? Have a good trip.
Nick, have a great vacation……you deserve it!
I do believe that we wouldn't have “religion” if we didn't have “inference.”
But the gospel…..is there room for inference?
Wow…..the boards are going to be quiet with you gone for 6 weeks! Let's face it, you keep everything moving and shaking!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 31 2007,08:33) Hi Is 1.18,
Thanks.
He drew no inferences.
He knew.
He was the truth
an inference is “the reasoning involved in drawing a conclusion or making a logical judgment on the basis of circumstantial evidence and prior conclusions rather than on the basis of direct observation”Jesus did this all the time when he reasoned with the Pharisees, trapping them by their own words and questions, and will do this in the day of judgment… He will judge men by their works, thus drawing an inference based on their works and also will draw an inference regarding their eternal destiny based on who it is they trusted in for their salvation..
so Isa 1:18… you are definitely on the right track here..
blessings
Nick;
A six week vacation! Wow! Where are you heading? There must be a laptop out there somewhere for you to hook up on the net. How about a going away song. Everybody:
May the Good Lord bless and keep you whether near or far away.
May your troubles all be small ones and your fortunes ten times ten. May the Good Lord bless and keep you til we meet again.
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