Inference

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 24 2007,21:37)

Quote (Cubes @ April 24 2007,12:22)

It bears repeating, and to have scripture interpret scripture:

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: YHWH our GOD [is] one YHWH:

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.

By these scriptures we see that YHWH is One, GOD and Father of all. We already know that it is written, he is the God and Father of Jesus too. No inferences.

Hi Cubes,
There is more than meets the eye with Ephesians 4:6, aside from the very many verses attesting to Yeshua indwelling us by His Spirit, there is this verse:

John 14:23
Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

Hmmm, looks like the “One God” indwelling us is a “we” and an “our”…

How do you explain this Cubes?

Hello Is,

Mat 10:40 ¶ He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Jhn 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

Jhn 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

Jhn 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will [my] Father honour.

Jhn 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world

Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

Luk 15:30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
Luk 15:31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

I hope you see the pattern:

We know that he ascended and is with the Father, sitting at his right hand. He also said that where he is his servants/friends would be also.

The indwelling of the Spirit:
I also understand that just as GOD equipped and commanded the son of GOD, ADAM I to be fruitful and multiply and he produced humanity after his own kind, that is, flesh of which even Jesus himself partook for our sakes, so too has the Father given eternal life to his son, ADAM II, equipped him that he might have life in himself and authorized, commanded if you will (“this command I received from my Father” he was known to often say) to similarly produce after his own kind. “To as many as believed gave he power to become the sons of God.”

Adam I dwells w/ us through the flesh by the will of GOD.
Adam II dwells w/ us through the spirit, by the will of GOD.

It does not require that either Adam be the Most High GOD; only that GOD chose to use them in the way that seemed right to him and Adam II pleased GOD, whereas Adam I didn't.

April 24, 2007 at 7:49 pm#50377

Is 1:18

Participant

Hi Cubes,
That's an interesting take on it. But I disagree. Adam I, the person, does not indwell us at all, there is not one verse that would suggest this. Also bear in mind that they (The Father and Yeshua) will 'come to us' before they make their “abode” (residence) with us. This is quite an explicit declaration that your explanation does not account for.

Gotta Go
Blessings

April 24, 2007 at 9:47 pm#50394

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 25 2007,07:49)

Gotta Go
Blessings

Is 1:18

Hehe.

You gotta give her credit for trying.

April 24, 2007 at 9:49 pm#50396

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 25 2007,07:49)

Gotta Go
Blessings

Hi Is 1.18,
So God indwelled Jesus and can indwell us as Spirit?

April 24, 2007 at 10:15 pm#50405

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 25 2007,09:49)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 25 2007,07:49)

Gotta Go
Blessings

Hi Is 1.18,
So God indwelled Jesus and can indwell us as Spirit?

I thought you said the Spirit in us is not God?

April 24, 2007 at 10:16 pm#50407

Participant

Hi W,
God was at work in Christ and is at work in us to will and to do, as Spirit.

April 25, 2007 at 4:44 pm#50521

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 25 2007,12:49)

Gotta Go
Blessings

Hi Is,

Please forgive my delay in responding.
Love and blessings to you.

First of, show us that Christ is the origin of the life and Spirit in him, and you've got yourself a deal.

Rather, we know that the source of life and spirit in him comes from the Father as we have the explicit scriptures. Thus, If anyone indwells us, it is the Father's spirit, which ALSO indwells Christ.

Jesus said somewhere, “as I live by the Father, live by me.” or something to that effect.

The Father has chosen to pass that life on to us through Christ, being the firstborn of many brethren. The correlation w/ Adam I DWELLING IN US is similar except that the inherent attributes are biological, physical and yes, spiritual due to sin which came by him, according to scripture.

Consider the whole Epistle of Romans for example, but here's a section to illustrate what I mean:

Romans 7:13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

In that regard, it is Satan dwelling in us, actually….
Remember how Jesus contrasted his Father with some Jews', when he said their Father was [of] the devil because of their fruit/deeds?

Also Were that not the case, Jesus would not say that lusting after a woman=adultery, for example.

April 25, 2007 at 4:48 pm#50522

Participant

Hi Again, Is.

Section II.

Yes, the Father does abide with those who do his will.

As pertaining to the pronoun WE and OUR, Jesus said:

Jhn 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and WE will come unto him, and make OUR abode with him.

He also said of his relationship with humanity:

Jhn 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, WE speak that WE do know, and testify that WE have seen; and ye receive not OUR witness.

Jhn 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: WE know what WE worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Luk 9:50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid [him] not: for he that is not against US is for US.

What is lacking is any scripture which refers to GOD's worship of any other being. By this, we know that Christ is not GOD, and their “WE/OUR” is that of similar unity as to the disciples, and not of substance or sameness. I've already shown that YHWH is the Father and it is he who is GOD.

Act 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let [him] go.

Act 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

There were various times when Jesus and his disciples (came to/went to) TRAVELED to and ABODE at different places with others, e.g. in Bethany right before his crucifixion. If traveling together and abiding together makes one of the same substance and being as another, then the disciples are also the Trinity. I do not question the unity intended.

Now Jesus is in heaven with the Living GOD and Father, who is Spirit; we already know that no flesh can stand before GOD, he also told us that we too shall be as angels who are spirit and who are not given into marriage (except to the groom of course), we also know that we shall be as he is at his appearing and be raised w/ incorruptible body as his where we evermore shall be w/ him. We also know that together with him, GOD shall be in our midst (yet neither of us is GOD), so why all the confusion and insistence to hold on to this unsupported point of view which is explained with many other scriptures?

Does scripture not also say that GOD is w/ his people?
And if you cite that Emmanuel/Yeshua must be YHWH GOD then let me refer you to:

Luk 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

Coupled w/ Zechariah's prophecy in Luke 1:69; Malachi 3:1 and others like that to show that Christ was came on behalf of GOD and GOD was w/ him and with his people.

Shalom

April 25, 2007 at 5:51 pm#50523

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 25 2007,14:47)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 25 2007,07:49)

Gotta Go
Blessings

Is 1:18

Hehe.

You gotta give her credit for trying.

Hey WJ,

Glad you haven't lost your sense of humor.
Sorry I didn't get back to you in your other thread: I needed a break from this centuries old debate in my current finite life, of which your side grossly lacks evidence anyway, but I hope to visit it soon and respond to any pending posts you may have for me, and so seize the opportunity to share in the preaching of the true gospel: One sovereign God and Father who sent his only begotten son and Christ to redeem and reconcile us to himself.

Blessings.

April 25, 2007 at 6:42 pm#50525

Participant

Quote (Cubes @ April 26 2007,05:51)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 25 2007,14:47)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 25 2007,07:49)

Gotta Go
Blessings

Is 1:18

Hehe.

You gotta give her credit for trying.

Hey WJ,

Glad you haven't lost your sense of humor.
Sorry I didn't get back to you in your other thread: I needed a break from this centuries old debate in my current finite life, of which your side grossly lacks evidence anyway, but I hope to visit it soon and respond to any pending posts you may have for me, and so seize the opportunity to share in the preaching of the true gospel: One God and Father who sent his only begotten son and Christ to redeem and reconcile us to himself.

Blessings.

Cubes

You say…

Quote

One God and Father who sent his only begotten son and Christ to redeem and reconcile us to himself.

Which one is he reconcileing us too..

God the Father,

God the Son?

April 25, 2007 at 7:01 pm#50528

Participant

Hi W,
There is no “God the Son” in scripture.
So that comes from the spirit of tradition not the Spirit of God.

2Cor 5
'19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. '

So Since no trinity would be in Christ or we would have 4, GOD here, as usual, means the ONE TRUE GOD, The Father.

We are anointed too with the same Spirit that wrote scripture through men to continue the task of spreading the good news, found not by inference but in scripture.

2Cor 5
” 18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; “

April 25, 2007 at 7:02 pm#50529

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 26 2007,11:42)

Quote (Cubes @ April 26 2007,05:51)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 25 2007,14:47)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 25 2007,07:49)

Gotta Go
Blessings

Is 1:18

Hehe.

You gotta give her credit for trying.

Hey WJ,

Glad you haven't lost your sense of humor.
Sorry I didn't get back to you in your other thread: I needed a break from this centuries old debate in my current finite life, of which your side grossly lacks evidence anyway, but I hope to visit it soon and respond to any pending posts you may have for me, and so seize the opportunity to share in the preaching of the true gospel: One God and Father who sent his only begotten son and Christ to redeem and reconcile us to himself.

Blessings.

Cubes

You say…

Quote

One God and Father who sent his only begotten son and Christ to redeem and reconcile us to himself.

Which one is he reconcileing us too..

God the Father,

God the Son?

Hi WJ,

Christ reconciled us to GOD, according to the will and purposes of GOD, for GOD so loved the world that he sent his son.

1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not [a mediator] of one, but God is one.

Hbr 5:1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things [pertaining] to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:

Hbr 7:26 For such an high priest became us, [who is] holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

Hbr 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken [this is] the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

April 25, 2007 at 8:57 pm#50550

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 26 2007,12:01)

Hi W,
There is no “God the Son” in scripture.
So that comes from the spirit of tradition not the Spirit of God.

2Cor 5
'19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. '

So Since no trinity would be in Christ or we would have 4, GOD here, as usual, means the ONE TRUE GOD, The Father.

We are anointed too with the same Spirit that wrote scripture through men to continue the task of spreading the good news, found not by inference but in scripture.

2Cor 5
” 18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; “

Amen, Nick.
A sure foundation built on Rock.
I feel a hurricane coming on, Trinitarians. Hasten!

April 25, 2007 at 9:01 pm#50554

Tim2

Participant

The Rock, cubes? You mean YHWH? Isaiah 44:8. You mean Jesus? 1 Corinthians 10:4.

April 25, 2007 at 9:03 pm#50556

Participant

Hi tim2,
Mystery babylon loves confusion but there is none in the pure Word.

April 25, 2007 at 9:50 pm#50562

Participant

Quote (Tim2 @ April 26 2007,14:01)

The Rock, cubes? You mean YHWH? Isaiah 44:8. You mean Jesus? 1 Corinthians 10:4.

Hi Tim2,

I do not deny Christ but rather exalt him as Christ, the son of God. No man comes to the Father but by him.

How about the Trinity?
It is indecisive: cannot decide whether the Father is a son, nursed at a woman's breasts, had his diapers changed, a man who who had to be baptized to fulfill all righteousness (requ'd by whom I ask?), his own servant and prophet, died [at the hands of mortal men, mind you], resurrected, etc.

Or whether the son is the Father who only is the Most High GOD, immortal dwelling in unapproachable light, appearing before himself to make intecession for us, serving himself as high priest, worships himself, and all sorts of incredible “mysterious” confusing conundrum like that…

Christ as Rock is the Chief Corner stone of a building, which builder is God of which we too are a part as living stones.

There is no such thing as a Triune God, Tim2.

Meanwhile there is a clear, straight and narrow way to follow.

You have to admit the Trinity is a BROAD way by these few examples that I've shown!

April 25, 2007 at 10:43 pm#50569

Tim2

Participant

Hi Cubes,

I admit that you believe there are two Rocks, in spite of YHWH's declaration that He is the only Rock. Isaiah 44:8.

And the Trinity is decisive on both of your points. The Father did none of those things. The Son did. You're confusing the Trinity with modalism.

And you misquote Scripture. It doesn't say that only the Father is the Most High God. It says that the Father is the only true God. The ecumenical creeds affirm this. They also affirm that the Son is the same true God. 1 John 5:20. And the Spirit is the same true God. Acts 5:4. 2 Corinthians 3:17. There is only one true God. Deuteronomy 4:35. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are that God.

The narrow was is Jesus, God with us. Matthew 1:23. Accept no others.

Tim

April 25, 2007 at 11:04 pm#50573

Participant

Hi tim2,
So if you put all those verses in the mixture and cook them up together
out of the oven comes A TRINITY?
Naaah
First find the trinity written.
It isn't… much to the chargrin of many.

April 25, 2007 at 11:41 pm#50578

Participant

Quote (Tim2 @ April 26 2007,15:43)

Hi Cubes,

I admit that you believe there are two Rocks, in spite of YHWH's declaration that He is the only Rock. Isaiah 44:8.

No, I understand the basic workings of genealogy by the word of GOD and by the evidence of the creation.

e.g. The Father of Lights is GOD our Father.
Christ is the Light of the world.
We in Christ are also the light of the world.

We are one through the eternal Spirit of GOD. But not one of us is one another. Some of us were produced from our parents and we produce others who would produce others, etc by God's grace.

Quote

And the Trinity is decisive on both of your points. The Father did none of those things. The Son did. You're confusing the Trinity with modalism.

That's what I'm told. But tell me, does your GOD have different, compartmentalized experiences? for example, what did you have for breakfast today (assuming you had any?). What did I? oatmeal and soymilk.
We are (hopefully) one in Christ, but different experiences.
If GOD is Father, Son & Spirit (group or individual) but then one died on the Cross, did GOD die or did he not? You see the problem?

Isaiah 44:8 would say that GOD experiences all that he experiences as he is an individual and his experiences are indeed personal to himself.

So the convenient “modalism” clause that you appeal to does not hold because GOD is GOD all the time, and wholly so.

Quote

And you misquote Scripture. It doesn't say that only the Father is the Most High God.
Tim

Oh no?

I'll discuss your references in a different post.

April 26, 2007 at 12:09 am#50579