Inference

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 21 2007,18:15)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 21 2007,17:50) Hi Is 1.18, There is no doubt Christ is a person too. Matthew 27:24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. 2 Corinthians 2:10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ; But there is some doubt about the PROPOSED third member of the PROPOSED trinity as NO SCRIPTURES speak of the SPIRIT being a person. Looks as though we will have to rely on INFERENCE again. And that INFERENCE will have to be extended to the formation of a trinity as well as it is not written. NH Is there a scripture that says the Father is a person? Your point is a straw because there are many passages showing the Spirit is a person just as the Father and Yeshua.

Hi W,
Please show us without INFERENCE
ONE scripture
that says the Spirit of our God is a person.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
The word PERSON is used 106 times about people in scripture, including Jesus.
It is a foundation of the trinity PROPOSITION that God is three persons
so it is over to it's proponents to show these matters.

If they cannot the question has to be asked why they teach on such matters without scriptural support.

[Is 1:18]

Hey NH, where is it explicitly written that God is one person? Or are you happy to concede that it's inferred in scripture?

Also, could I have your understanding of John 1:1c please?

[NickHassan]

Hi Is 1.18,
Spirit beings are not often referred to as persons as the term is used of humans. The sons of God are not called persons. Lesser angels are not called persons.

Those who propose God to be a trinity introduced the thought of God being persons with little or no scriptural backing. They divided our God. Jesus never called God a person. They made a God in their own image.

It is one of the tragic consequences of the trinity proposition confusion that men need to have explained to them that the God of the OT revealed by Jesus to be his Father, is a being though He called Himself I AM WHO AM.

[Is 1:18]

NH I wrote:

Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 21 2007,17:32)

Hi NH, A quick question for you, when scripture records “God is one”, what do you think it means?

Quote

Do you suppose it means that God is “one” individual [person]?

To which you replied:

Quote

absolutely.

So yes, you confirmed that God is an individual person, but now you're back tracking, telling me it's not scriptural?

Lot's of inference to wade through here…..

[Is 1:18]

….and can I expect to see you post your understanding of John 1:1c?

[NickHassan]

Hi Is 1.18,
If the whole value of what you are doing is that you are trying to show how I use inference too then I am sure you are right.
But I do not produce doctrines based on propositions and inferences that are imposed on the church of God as foundational doctrines and you would be wise not to follow those who do.

[Tim2]

Proof that the Spirit is a person: John 14:16. The Spirit is called Parakletos, which is by definition a person, a comforter or helper; as opposed to paraklesis, which means comfort or consolation, and is by definition impersonal.

[Cubes]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 21 2007,22:12)

Do you suppose it means that God is “one” individual [person]?

Greetings Is,

(From Pg 3) Yes it does mean “one” individual as NH states.

Quote

Well that would be inference, wouldn't it?

It wouldn't be when you have the facts to support the conclusion.  

Only one individual makes a Father of any given person(s).

I think that's proof enough.  Don't you?

[Cubes]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 22 2007,00:03)

Hey NH, where is it explicitly written that God is one person? Or are you happy to concede that it's inferred in scripture?

Is,

1Cr 1:3 Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ.

Mat 23:9 And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for ONE is your Father, which is in heaven.

Genetically, I am not aware of any known examples of two people siring the same child(ren) directly. This would throw the whole case of biological paternity into jeopardy and make it useless.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 21 2007,21:37)

Hi Is 1.18, If the whole value of what you are doing is that you are trying to show how I use inference too then I am sure you are right. But I do not produce doctrines based on propositions and inferences that are imposed on the church of God as foundational doctrines and you would be wise not to follow those who do.

NH

Really?

You are inferring that God is One person not three.

Dont you consider that a foundational truth?

So how is your inference any different than a Trinitarians?

Is there a scripture that says God is a Person?

What does a person mean to you? Is not our God “Personal”?

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
God never revealed that He is more than One.

He said He is
I AM WHO AM
not
WE ARE WHO ARE

You should know the One true God.

He should be your father.
Then you would not have this confusion.

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
If you can find written in scripture what you believe then you can rightly begin to believe it and if you can find witnessing verses in scriptures in the mouths of God's anointed teachers then indeed you can claim that you are teaching truth.

However if you cannot find it written but have to look for inference or put several verses together to make that statement you require then it is only YOUR teaching.

And the question has to be asked-who are you?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 22 2007,07:03)

Hi W, God never revealed that He is more than One. He said He is I AM WHO AM not WE ARE WHO ARE You should know the One true God. He should be your father. Then you would not have this confusion.

NH

Seems to me you are confused.

You dont even know if God is a person.

Or at least you cant answer the questions.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 22 2007,07:35)

Hi W, If you can find written in scripture what you believe then you can rightly begin to believe it and if you can find witnessing verses in scriptures in the mouths of God's anointed teachers then indeed you can claim that you are teaching truth. However if you cannot find it written but have to look for inference or put several verses together to make that statement you require then it is only YOUR teaching. And the question has to be asked-who are you?

NH

Here is what is written.

Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and *the Word was God*.

Jn 1:14
And the Word/God was made flesh, and dwelt (Tabenacled), among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

1 Tim 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

1 Tim 1:17
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Tim 6:
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Jn 20:
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Rev 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, [/B]the Almighty.[/B]

Rev 22:
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13 am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Is 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Blessings  

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 22 2007,16:17)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 22 2007,07:03) Hi W, God never revealed that He is more than One. He said He is I AM WHO AM not WE ARE WHO ARE You should know the One true God. He should be your father. Then you would not have this confusion. NH Seems to me you are confused. You dont even know if God is a person. Or at least you cant answer the questions.

Hi W,
I do not find answers for you. You have studied the same source of truth and come up with different conclusions which you are welcome to treasure. They will bring their profit or loss on your investment.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Cubes @ April 22 2007,06:33)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 21 2007,22:12) Do you suppose it means that God is “one” individual [person]? Greetings Is, (From Pg 3)   Yes it does mean “one” individual as NH states. Quote Well that would be inference, wouldn't it? It wouldn't be when you have the facts to support the conclusion.   Only one individual makes a Father of any given person(s). I think that's proof enough.  Don't you?

Hiya Cubes,
It's proof that the Father of Yeshua, an individual personage, is “God”, yes. But that's not contested by either side here. Where in scripture is it explicitly stated that YHWH is unipersonal?

[david]

Quote

unipersonal

I'll check a dictionary and get back to you.

[Tim2]

Nick,

Saying that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Spirit is God are three different statements. Each one is explicitly taught in Scripture. This isn't putting anything together. It's just saying what Scripture says.

By your own standards you can only believe one statement in the Bible, because if you believe more than one Scriptural statement, then you're putting different Scriptures together.

Tim

[Is 1:18]

It'll open up a whole new world for you David….

Hey guess what David, for the first time in living memory members of your church knocked on my door. It happaned yesterday morning. Of course I invited them in and we had an interesting talk about Yeshua. They said they would do some research and get back to me on some of my questions. They also said they would bring with them someone with some expertise in the biblical languages. I sincerely hope they do.

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