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Quote I think he was of divine origins as the image don't you?
That's a little metaphorical for me, what do you mean when you write “divine origins”. Can you be specific?BTW, the word “charaktēr” in Heb 1:3 has a post resurrection context.
What comes immediately to mind for me is that he has divine nature because he came from God who is the Divine. So if he came from God, what kind of nature would he have?
And the mystery deepens because we will also partake of the divine nature.
1 John 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.Amen!
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 26 2007,10:41) What comes immediately to mind for me is that he has divine nature because he came from God who is the Divine. So if he came from God, what kind of nature would he have? And the mystery deepens because we will also partake of the divine nature.
1 John 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.Amen!
t8I think you forget the difference between us being “partakers” (Gr. koinonos, partners), of the diving nature and Jesus actually “Being” the “Express Image” of God.
Heb 1:3
Who *being* the brightness of his glory, and the express image (charakter) of his person, (Substance)…Jesus is all that makes God, God.
We are being created into his image, but we are not God, nor shall we ever be.
He is in the form “Mophe” of God, the Word/God that took on human form.
When people look at us they may see the reflection of Christ as in a mirror.
But when we look at Jesus we are not looking at a reflection as in a mirror, we are looking at the very substance and essence of who God is.
Big difference my friend.
Hi W,
You say
“But when we look at Jesus we are not looking at a reflection as in a mirror, we are looking at the very substance and essence of who God is.”Yes he is a vessel for God with life in himself.
He is a being, the Son of God.Hebrews 1:3 (KJV)
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;This verse, when read, clearly distinguishes between Messiah and God and doesn't provide any proof whatsoever that Messiah is “God in the flesh”. Additionally, when the context of Hebrews 1 is read it is VERY clear that Messiah is most certainly NOT God. I leave it to your own common sense to reason it out. It is obvious.
Some will argue the phrase “express image of his person” somehow proves Messiah is God. However, note the following comments regarding a similar verse taken from 2 Corinthians 4:4.
2 Corinthians 4:4
4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Messiah, who is the image of God, should shine on them.I discussed the “image” issue when commenting on 1 Corinthians 11:7.
1 Corinthians 11:7
7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man.Man – in general – is the “image and glory of God”; HOWEVER, no one will argue that any man IS God! Likewise, when you come across verses that discuss Jesus as the “image” or “likeness” of God (Philippians 2:6, Colossians 1:15), those verses do NOT mean that Jesus IS God.
In fact, being the “likeness” or “image” of something shows the “image” is NOT the actual object, by virtue of the implicit distinction! The Messiah's being the “image” of God (even a “perfect” image) is PROOF in itself that Jesus is NOT God! It is impossible for the “likeness” of ANYTHING to BE the very thing it is like, since an implicit comparison is being made between 2 separate, distinct objects!
Inisage
Quote In fact, being the “likeness” or “image” of something shows the “image” is NOT the actual object, by virtue of the implicit distinction! The Messiah's being the “image” of God (even a “perfect” image) is PROOF in itself that Jesus is NOT God! It is impossible for the “likeness” of ANYTHING to BE the very thing it is like, since an implicit comparison is being made between 2 separate, distinct objects! How nice! The only problem is that you have to try to explain away all of the following.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
JOHN 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
TITUS 2:13 ..awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;
JOHN 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
JOHN 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
PHILIPPIANS 2:5-6 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: (6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
COLOSSIANS 2:9-10 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
1 TIMOTHY 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Compare
Psa 41:13 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.
With
MICAH 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, {though} thou be little among the thousands of Judah, {yet} out of thee shall he come forth unto me {that is} to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth {have been} from of old, from everlasting.Compare
1 CHRONICLES 28:9 . . . the Lord searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts:
With
MATTHEW 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
MATTHEW 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, . . .
REVELATION 2:23 . . . I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: . . .Compare
Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD (Jehovah), make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
With (John the Baptist referring to Jesus)
Mat 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.Compare1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
With
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.Compare
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
With
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Joh 18:6 When therefore he said unto them, I am, they went backward, and fell to the ground.Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Back to the drawing board Unisage!
Zec 7:11 But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.
Hi,
God became incarnate in the body of His Son Jesus Christ just as God can live in us.Eph 3
19And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.Hi,
1Tim 3[NIV]
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. 16Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great:
He[a] appeared in a body,
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.Footnotes:
1 Timothy 3:16 Some manuscripts God
1 Timothy 3:16 Or in the fleshIf only SOME manuscripts say GOD why does the KJV choose them?
? trinity bias?16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 11 2008,16:20) Hi,
1Tim 3[NIV]
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. 16Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great:
He[a] appeared in a body,
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.Footnotes:
1 Timothy 3:16 Some manuscripts God
1 Timothy 3:16 Or in the flesh
If only SOME manuscripts say GOD why does the KJV choose them?
? trinity bias?16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 11 2008,16:20) If only SOME manuscripts say GOD why does the KJV choose them?
? trinity bias?
Why not? If some manuscripts have it, it is not disingenous to choose it since the meaning is the same thing. “He (The Word/God John 1:1) was manifest (John 1:14) in the flesh…”I thought you were saying that the majority is not right, but now for your convenience the majority is?
WJ
Hi WJ,
If God was IN CHRIST as scripture says he was not our God.
If a trinity was in Christ that makes four.
WHO is his God[Jn20.17]hi all
trinity +incarnation = false teachings ,understand the spirit of Christ throughout the scriptures not one verse or two,it will tell you christ has to be man not God or a god,why do Jesus himself call him self the son of man ,he call himself as well son of God, why???
because like Adam he was created trough Gods power,and he was the son of man because of his mother,Job was a figure of Christ to come,
Satan tested Jesus just the same,did not Jesus recognized that it was his father that operate all the miracles for him,because he was the Christ,did Jesus not said that his father is greater than he is?
did Christ not said that he always does the will of is father?
did not Christ call is father to help him at the time of dead?
did not Christ said that the miracles he made are the testimony of his father being in accord to what he is doing?
did not Christ said i only speak the words my father told me to say?do you really know Christ
???Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 18 2009,09:52) Hi WJ,
If God was IN CHRIST as scripture says he was not our God.
If a trinity was in Christ that makes four.
WHO is his God[Jn20.17]
Inference Nick. You discourage inference. “God was in Christ” does not prove He was not God. It proves UNITY.Your “trinity in Christ = four” equation is silly.
thinker
hi all
God was not in Christ but with Christ,but the will of God was in Christ,big difference if you can see it and understand it
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