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Quote (acertainchap @ Jan. 13 2008,11:11) Quote (Guest @ Jan. 13 2008,05:23) IN the beginning the gods explored the heavens and discovered the earth;
And the earth was without form (animal life) and void (no plants)
And darkness was upon the face of the deep (on the backside of the planet)
And The Spirit (spaceship) of The Gods moved upon the face of the waters.The gods said “There should be light” (terminator). And there was light.
And the gods saw the light, that it was good: and they divided the light from the darkness.
Calling the time in light day and the time in darkness night
And the evening and the morning were the first orbit.(as the shuttlecraft descends toward the surface)
And the gods said, “The waters under the heaven are gathered together unto one place,
And the dry land has (now) appeared. (Visible from this altitude)
And the gods called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of water called they Seas
And the gods saw that all was well.And the gods found the earth brought forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree
Yielding fruit, whose seed is in itself after his kind; and they found many good for food.
And the evening and the morning were the third orbit.And the gods charted the stars in the firmament of heaven
And the sun and moon as they ruled the day and night
(To confirm their location in the galaxy)
And the gods saw that it was good. (They were not lost).And the gods saw that the waters brought forth moving creatures that have life
And fowls that fly above the earth
And the gods determined that they were acceptable (as food)
And should be left to multiply and fill the lands.
And the evening and the morning were the fifth orbit.And the gods said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness,
Giving them the intelligence and vitality which we possess.
Higher than the fish of the sea and fowls of the air.
And above cattle and above all the earth,
And everything that crawls upon the ground.So the gods changed humans into the level of advancement and intelligence they possessed
Both the males and the females of the new species were so changed
And the gods blessed them, and sent them forth, saying, Be fruitful and multiply
And replenish the earth with your kind, and you will come to dominate all the lands.
And all other species on the earth you shall rule.And it was so. And the gods saw everything they had made, that it was all good.
And the evening and the morning were the sixth orbit.
Your kidding me, right?Here's the real truth…
Genesis 1
The Beginning
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
6 And God said, “Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.
9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.
14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.
20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky.” 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.
24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”
29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.
Genesis 2
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.
2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.
And you're kidding me in turn, yes?Stuart
Quote (acertainchap @ Jan. 14 2008,00:09) If that's what you want to believe. Your not getting rid of my faith so try all you want.
I have not set out to rid you of your faith. As long as you are not under the delusion that there is any objective truth in Genesis, and you don't insist I act according to your religious beliefs, then as far as I am concerned your fantasies are up to you, just as mine are up to me!Stuart
Posted from another thread that Stu doen ot contribute to.
——————————————————————————–
Hi Stu,
Have a look at these verses.
Is 34
4And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.5For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
Rev6
12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
From the perspective of earth do these describe a polar shift?
Could men on earth survive a polar shift?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 14 2008,19:55) Posted from another thread that Stu doen ot contribute to.
——————————————————————————–
Hi Stu,
Have a look at these verses.
Is 34
4And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.5For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
Rev6
12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
From the perspective of earth do these describe a polar shift?
Could men on earth survive a polar shift?
Is this an invitation to post in the Boy Scouts' section?Earthquake, fine. If the Moon 'becomes as blood' then you are observing a lunar eclipse, but if the Sun becomes black then it is a solar eclipse. Those two events describe mutually opposing arrangements of the sun, earth and moon and are not possible at the same time. Stars falling to earth is the mythology of those ignorant of modern astronomy (so much for divine inspiration). Mountains and Islands do move, at about the rate of growth of fingernails.
Are these symptoms of a reversal of earth's magnetic field? No. Could we survive it? I don't see why not. Life has survived such reversals in the past. How well might depend on whether the protection against solar radiation provided by the magnetic field is maintained during the reversal. Shame we haven't got a solid firmament, as described in Genesis.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 10 2008,18:16) I have suspended judgement and claim not to know
OK, we have an answer.HE DOESN'T KNOW.
You know what that means Stu?
It means that you cannot write off that there is a God because you do not know the answer.
If you are honest with yourself, you would keep the options open if you do not know.
If you close down options and you do not know, then you simply do not know what you are doing.
Have a long hard think about it.
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 14 2008,17:28) don't insist I act according to your religious beliefs, then as far as I am concerned your fantasies are up to you, just as mine are up to me! Stuart
Have I ever insisted? I have given you Biblical evidence to support my Faith, do with it what you will.Hi t8
(Regarding the doctrine of ‘something from nothing’):
Quote HE DOESN'T KNOW. You know what that means Stu? It means that you cannot write off that there is a God because you do not know the answer. If you are honest with yourself, you would keep the options open if you do not know.
I realise that. That is why I reserve a 0.000000000000001% probability that there is a divine brutal dictator of the kind you believe in. Please see my previous posts that say the same regarding my agnosticism and my atheism.Quote If you close down options and you do not know, then you simply do not know what you are doing. Have a long hard think about it.
I have, I promise you. Can you make the same claim?Do you deny the existence of Zeus, or have you incorporated that myth into your worldview like Son of Light has?
Stuart
Quote (acertainchap @ Jan. 15 2008,00:46) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 14 2008,17:28) don't insist I act according to your religious beliefs, then as far as I am concerned your fantasies are up to you, just as mine are up to me! Stuart
Have I ever insisted? I have given you Biblical evidence to support my Faith, do with it what you will.
I suspect we live in different countries, but let's pretend we both live in yours.Have you ever supported any initiative that would result in taxpayers' money being used for promotion of christianity, say for example in instituting prayer in a public situation, or erecting one of those absurd monuments to the commandments that we are always reading about, or initiatives that ask for 'equal time' for theology in science classes, or opposed publicly-funded stem-cell research on religious grounds?
If you haven't then you have not insisted that I believe the way you do, and you might even agree that a secular society is the only way to guarantee people's rights to freedom of religion and freedom from it.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 14 2008,21:34) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 14 2008,19:55) Posted from another thread that Stu doen ot contribute to.
——————————————————————————–
Hi Stu,
Have a look at these verses.
Is 34
4And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.5For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
Rev6
12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
From the perspective of earth do these describe a polar shift?
Could men on earth survive a polar shift?
Is this an invitation to post in the Boy Scouts' section?Earthquake, fine. If the Moon 'becomes as blood' then you are observing a lunar eclipse, but if the Sun becomes black then it is a solar eclipse. Those two events describe mutually opposing arrangements of the sun, earth and moon and are not possible at the same time. Stars falling to earth is the mythology of those ignorant of modern astronomy (so much for divine inspiration). Mountains and Islands do move, at about the rate of growth of fingernails.
Are these symptoms of a reversal of earth's magnetic field? No. Could we survive it? I don't see why not. Life has survived such reversals in the past. How well might depend on whether the protection against solar radiation provided by the magnetic field is maintained during the reversal. Shame we haven't got a solid firmament, as described in Genesis.
Stuart
Hi Stu,
So what you understand is fine.
What you cannot immediately grasp becomes a myth?
So you are the person who abitrates what is truth an what is not?If a polar shift occurred and the earth moved out of it's usual plane then those who were awake and viewing the night sky would see the stars apparently move in unison upwards or downwards depending on their place on earth as the scriptures show.
But I am not expert on these matters but quite ignorant.
What do others think?
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 15 2008,05:30) Hi t8 (Regarding the doctrine of ‘something from nothing’):
Quote HE DOESN'T KNOW. You know what that means Stu? It means that you cannot write off that there is a God because you do not know the answer. If you are honest with yourself, you would keep the options open if you do not know.
I realise that. That is why I reserve a 0.000000000000001% probability that there is a divine brutal dictator of the kind you believe in. Please see my previous posts that say the same regarding my agnosticism and my atheism.Quote If you close down options and you do not know, then you simply do not know what you are doing. Have a long hard think about it.
I have, I promise you. Can you make the same claim?Do you deny the existence of Zeus, or have you incorporated that myth into your worldview like Son of Light has?
Stuart
Nice try Stu, but you are hiding behind things that are not of any importance to this subject.In the beginning was:
1) Nothing
2) Something
3) SomeoneAdding in Zues or a dictator is not related.
It is either 1, 2, or 3.
You don't have an answer, therefore you are not qualified to say that 1, 2, or 3 is wrong.
Simple as that Stu.
Sure you can say whatever you want, but you don't have much credibility if you have no idea what the answer is.
If you don't have an answer to anything, then the best thing to do is stop talking and start learning. Once you have an answer to champion, then start talking and debating.
But you are not in a position to say that any one of those 3 points is wrong.
BECAUSE YOU DO NOT KNOW.
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 15 2008,12:28) But you are not in a position to say that any one of those 3 points is wrong. BECAUSE YOU DO NOT KNOW.
Stu has a right to voice his beliefs, t8, even if they don't coincide with the Christian faith and many of our own beliefs. We are here to give, Stu, and others the Gospel message. What they choose to do with that is up to them and them alone.Quote (t8 @ Jan. 15 2008,12:28) Nice try Stu, but you are hiding behind things that are not of any importance to this subject.
But you have dodged the question, t8. Do you believe Zeus exists or not? If you don't what is the basis for your Zeus-atheism?Stuart
Hi t8
Quote Sure you can say whatever you want, but you don't have much credibility if you have no idea what the answer is. If you don't have an answer to anything, then the best thing to do is stop talking and start learning. Once you have an answer to champion, then start talking and debating.
It is not true that I have no idea on the subject (in fact I am the only one who has expressed even a single intelligent idea about it), but I think saying that I don’t know has plenty of integrity to it. In fact what I champion is the honesty of suspending judgement. What answer are you championing, t8? I haven’t read an actual answer from you on this subject, yet.Stuart
Quote (acertainchap @ Jan. 15 2008,13:03) Quote (t8 @ Jan. 15 2008,12:28) But you are not in a position to say that any one of those 3 points is wrong. BECAUSE YOU DO NOT KNOW.
Stu has a right to voice his beliefs, t8, even if they don't coincide with the Christian faith and many of our own beliefs. We are here to give, Stu, and others the Gospel message. What they choose to do with that is up to them and them alone.
That is true. But one is allowed to show logically a flaw in ones arguments.This is a forum after all.
If a flaw is pointed out, and a person continues on with their argument despite the flaw, then everyone else gets to see that persons motives a bit clearer.
Remember that the light shows up the deeds of the heart.
Nothing wrong with light, truth, logic, and correction.
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 15 2008,18:09) Hi t8 Quote Sure you can say whatever you want, but you don't have much credibility if you have no idea what the answer is. If you don't have an answer to anything, then the best thing to do is stop talking and start learning. Once you have an answer to champion, then start talking and debating.
It is not true that I have no idea on the subject (in fact I am the only one who has expressed even a single intelligent idea about it), but I think saying that I don’t know has plenty of integrity to it. In fact what I champion is the honesty of suspending judgement. What answer are you championing, t8? I haven’t read an actual answer from you on this subject, yet.Stuart
Hey what about telling me if you hold to A, B, or C.After all you know which one I am of.
We can then debate from there.
Quote (acertainchap @ Jan. 15 2008,13:03) Quote (t8 @ Jan. 15 2008,12:28) But you are not in a position to say that any one of those 3 points is wrong. BECAUSE YOU DO NOT KNOW.
Stu has a right to voice his beliefs, t8, even if they don't coincide with the Christian faith and many of our own beliefs. We are here to give, Stu, and others the Gospel message. What they choose to do with that is up to them and them alone.
Another thing chap.Is it not a good thing to have an answer as to that which one believes?
I certainly expect it if a persons says you are dead wrong. I expect to see why and to see the answer as to their thinking. Such an expectation is fair.
Avoiding questions all the while condemning your faith doesn't add up for either person.
A person teaches because they know that which they teach.
If you taught that which you do not know, then obviously you would have to admit as to not really knowing what you are doing.
Your bluff is called, t8. You have no answer to the point about your Zeus-atheism, and on the unrelated question of where matter comes from you are even more ignorant than me.
Stuart
Nothing
Something
Someonecovers all bases.
Zues, Christian Cullen, double decker buses and so on are specific things that are not being debated here and have nothing to do with the subject.
I just want to know what base you are sitting on. You know which one I am on.
We can go from there.
A, B, C, or don't know.
Any of these is an acceptable answer and from there we can debate.
I look forward to your answer.
Thanks.
Let’s just go back a page, here t8.
You said
Quote OK, we have an answer. HE DOESN'T KNOW. You know what that means Stu? It means that you cannot write off that there is a God because you do not know the answer. If you are honest with yourself, you would keep the options open if you do not know. If you close down options and you do not know, then you simply do not know what you are doing. Have a long hard think about it. “It means that you cannot write off that there is a God because you do not know the answer.”
This is what changed the discussion from the pointless one about matter into a philosophical one about the existence of god. If you don’t intend this to be a valid point, then please just retract it. Otherwise you have considerably opened up the terms of the discussion, but into areas you paradoxically don’t appear to want to go.
By the way, the discussion is pointless because you can’t say what the difference between nothing and something actually is, and therefore the assertion that they are different things is just an unjustified assumption. This may sound barking mad to you, but since neither of us are committing to an actual model of how matter came to be, I am quite happy to speculate that what we call ‘nothing’ or ‘something’ could well be nonsense concepts. The world of the tiniest particles is known to be at least extremely peculiar, and very possibly it is almost incomprehensibly so.
Nothing from nothing might be no different from something from nothing, or indeed nothing from something!
The cyclotron in British Columbia has ‘created’ around a gram of matter in its working life to date. That is, it has converted energy to mass. That energy was present as a wave as much as it was a particle. Now explain to me how that weighs anything. Then tell me you know what ‘something’ is.
Stuart
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