In the beginning

[acertainchap]

I think that those are the only three options. Myself, I rule out 1. and 2. automatically.

[david]

Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 10 2008,14:20)

t8 as defined three options for “the beginning”. Everything come from: 1. Nothing 2. Something 3. Someone Are their any more options he did not think of?

I don't think there's more options than this. I think there's less options. There's really only 2, as others have said.

Our universe either
–had a beginning
–didn't have a beginning

We now know it did.

That beginning was either
–Without Cause
–Was caused

I think we have to believe that there was a cause.

So, the question
–By Some THING eternal
–By Some ONE eternal

Most agree that before the beginning, something real must have existed. Some scientists talk about ever existing energy. Others consider a primordial chaos as the preexisting condition. But most do presuppose the existance of something–something without a beginning–that extended back infinitely.

So the issue comes down to whether we presuppose something eternal or some one eternal.

But if we consider what science has learned about the origin and nature of the universe (the four fundemental laws for example and how they are precisely finely tuned to the only real way they could be for a universe, this one, or any one to ever exist) then I think that in itself highly favors Some ONE, an intelligence.

[Stu]

Hi WorshippingJesus

Quote

Why dont you leave the source for your writtings? Most of what you said is quotes from other sources.

Yes, it was. The better parts were original though. I was replying to someone who did not even bother to type anything, and who has, in my estimation, little or no knowledge of the content he linked to. Do you think I have replied to honesty with dishonesty? In any case, half of the references on the document to which he referred were dead links. The others were joke ‘research’ by creationists, who have as much credibility as the innocence claims of a bear in a shop full of half-empty jam jars.

I think perhaps my replying at all was a mistake. See next post.

Stuart

[Stu]

http://www.talkorigins.com

Stuart

[Stu]

Quote (david @ Jan. 12 2008,13:52)

That beginning was either –Without Cause –Was caused I think we have to believe that there was a cause.

I agree with everything down to here. At that point your post loses any credibility it may have previously had. your stated belief here is a religious dogma, and I think given the nature of your posts on scientific issues you should be honest and say that this has no empirical or rational merit.

Stuart

[Son of Light]

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 12 2008,14:57)

Quote (david @ Jan. 12 2008,13:52) That beginning was either –Without Cause –Was caused I think we have to believe that there was a cause. I agree with everything down to here.  At that point your post loses any credibility it may have previously had.  your stated belief here is a religious dogma, and I think given the nature of your posts on scientific issues you should be honest and say that this has no empirical or rational merit. Stuart

actually it had to have a cause.

that doesn't have to mean God.

But their was a reason it happened and that reason is the cause.

Stu, I know enough about scientific theories to know that every model has reasons behind them.

Reasons are causes.

[Stu]

Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,16:01)

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 12 2008,14:57) Quote (david @ Jan. 12 2008,13:52) That beginning was either –Without Cause –Was caused I think we have to believe that there was a cause. I agree with everything down to here.  At that point your post loses any credibility it may have previously had.  your stated belief here is a religious dogma, and I think given the nature of your posts on scientific issues you should be honest and say that this has no empirical or rational merit. Stuart actually it had to have a cause. that doesn't have to mean God. But their was a reason it happened and that reason is the cause. Stu, I know enough about scientific theories to know that every model has reasons behind them. Reasons are causes.

You should read the Kant you quote.

Stuart

[Son of Light]

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 12 2008,18:09)

Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,16:01) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 12 2008,14:57) Quote (david @ Jan. 12 2008,13:52) That beginning was either –Without Cause –Was caused I think we have to believe that there was a cause. I agree with everything down to here.  At that point your post loses any credibility it may have previously had.  your stated belief here is a religious dogma, and I think given the nature of your posts on scientific issues you should be honest and say that this has no empirical or rational merit. Stuart actually it had to have a cause. that doesn't have to mean God. But their was a reason it happened and that reason is the cause. Stu, I know enough about scientific theories to know that every model has reasons behind them. Reasons are causes. You should read the Kant you quote. Stuart

I don't actually believe Kant. He makes a good point. But, if he is right then technically we could all just be meatballs floating in a jar dreaming.

I just quoted him at the time because it seemed approriate, even though I can't recall why.

In order to keep from mentally vegitating I must assume we can actually observe and make judgements about our observations. Or like I have said before I might as well just sit and chew grass.

[Stu]

Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,19:07)

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 12 2008,18:09) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,16:01) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 12 2008,14:57) Quote (david @ Jan. 12 2008,13:52) That beginning was either –Without Cause –Was caused I think we have to believe that there was a cause. I agree with everything down to here.  At that point your post loses any credibility it may have previously had.  your stated belief here is a religious dogma, and I think given the nature of your posts on scientific issues you should be honest and say that this has no empirical or rational merit. Stuart actually it had to have a cause. that doesn't have to mean God. But their was a reason it happened and that reason is the cause. Stu, I know enough about scientific theories to know that every model has reasons behind them. Reasons are causes. You should read the Kant you quote. Stuart I don't actually believe Kant.  He makes a good point.  But, if he is right then technically we could all just be meatballs floating in a jar dreaming. I just quoted him at the time because it seemed approriate, even though I can't recall why. In order to keep from mentally vegitating I must assume we can actually observe and make judgements about our observations.  Or like I have said before I might as well just sit and chew grass.

Kant critiqued cause and effect. I challenge anyone to demonstrate that all effects need a cause. Whatever existed before the appearance of space-time does not necessarily conform to what we space-timers know to be the rules of physics. I know this sounds more far-fetched than belief in the supernatural but I am not making any claim, I am just saying we are discussing a situation where cause and effect may not be useful concepts. After all, if you could get inside a wormhole (a space-time one) you could travel backwards in time. Even in that case a cause could come 'after' an effect!

All bets are off in the 'time' before the big bang!

Stuart

[Son of Light]

In the end Stu you are giving credance to the idea of everything came out of nothing.

Like a cosmic rabbit out of the hat. (of course without the hat though)

Stu, that is Harry Potter. You tease Nick about Harry, but this is the same thing.

[Stu]

Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,19:28)

In the end Stu you are giving credance to the idea of everything came out of nothing. Like a cosmic rabbit out of the hat. (of course without the hat though) Stu, that is Harry Potter.  You tease Nick about Harry, but this is the same thing.

Well although I still claim that none of us know, the current scientific model is that all the matter and its equivalent antimatter (including all the dark matter) did actually exist in some form in the singularity that 'exploded' into space-time. That is an inflationary explosion of matter AND space-time together, not an explosion of matter into an already-existing space. Not only are you explaining something from nothing but also somewhere from nowhere and sometime from never. Just try to imagine there being no space then tell me that there is an easy answer to this!

Stuart

[Son of Light]

The explanation is something always existed.

Yes I understand that without time this “something” was in some kind of stasus, but STILL it always existed.

That in itself is a “spiritual” concept. You don't have to agree, but for me it is.

[Stu]

Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,19:47)

The explanation is something always existed. Yes I understand that without time this “something” was in some kind of stasus, but STILL it always existed. That in itself is a “spiritual” concept.  You don't have to agree, but for me it is.

That matter/antimatter always existed is only a placeholder hypothesis, waiting for evidence to shoot it down, as may well happen. It's real folly is its inability to describe in detail the difference between nothing and something, as I explained ad nauseam earlier. The difference I think is not a very interesting one, until we really know what matter/energy actually is.

You can have a spiritual concept by all means, but we should declare this thread the Doctrine of the Divine Creation of Matter, to distinguish it from 'science and creation', and especially from real science!

Stuart

[Son of Light]

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 12 2008,20:00)

Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,19:47) The explanation is something always existed. Yes I understand that without time this “something” was in some kind of stasus, but STILL it always existed. That in itself is a “spiritual” concept.  You don't have to agree, but for me it is. That matter/antimatter always existed is only a placeholder hypothesis, waiting for evidence to shoot it down, as may well happen.  It's real folly is its inability to describe in detail the difference between nothing and something, as I explained ad nauseam earlier.  The difference I think is not a very interesting one, until we really know what matter/energy actually is. You can have a spiritual concept by all means, but we should declare this thread the Doctrine of the Divine Creation of Matter, to distinguish it from 'science and creation', and especially from real science! Stuart

The thread is simply called In the beginning: Cosmology.

Which is actually philosophy. However, we don't have a philosophy of cosmology section and this is probably the best place to put it next to the evolution thread.

cos·mol·o·gy /kɒzˈmɒlədʒi/ Pronunciation Key – Show Spelled Pronunciation[koz-mol-uh-jee] Pronunciation Key – Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. the branch of philosophy dealing with the origin and general structure of the universe, with its parts, elements, and laws, and esp. with such of its characteristics as space, time, causality, and freedom.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cosmology

[Stu]

I always first think of the kind of cosmology done most popularly by Carl Sagan and by Stephen Hawking

2.the branch of astronomy that deals with the general structure and evolution of the universe

Not really philosophy as such, except in the 'PhD' sense.

Stuart

[Anonymous]

IN the beginning the gods explored the heavens and discovered the earth;
And the earth was without form (animal life) and void (no plants)
And darkness was upon the face of the deep (on the backside of the planet)
And The Spirit (spaceship) of The Gods moved upon the face of the waters.

The gods said “There should be light” (terminator). And there was light.
And the gods saw the light, that it was good: and they divided the light from the darkness.
Calling the time in light day and the time in darkness night
And the evening and the morning were the first orbit.

(as the shuttlecraft descends toward the surface)
And the gods said, “The waters under the heaven are gathered together unto one place,
And the dry land has (now) appeared. (Visible from this altitude)
And the gods called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of water called they Seas
And the gods saw that all was well.

And the gods found the earth brought forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree
Yielding fruit, whose seed is in itself after his kind; and they found many good for food.
And the evening and the morning were the third orbit.

And the gods charted the stars in the firmament of heaven
And the sun and moon as they ruled the day and night
(To confirm their location in the galaxy)
And the gods saw that it was good. (They were not lost).

And the gods saw that the waters brought forth moving creatures that have life
And fowls that fly above the earth
And the gods determined that they were acceptable (as food)
And should be left to multiply and fill the lands.
And the evening and the morning were the fifth orbit.

And the gods said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness,
Giving them the intelligence and vitality which we possess.
Higher than the fish of the sea and fowls of the air.
And above cattle and above all the earth,
And everything that crawls upon the ground.

So the gods changed humans into the level of advancement and intelligence they possessed
Both the males and the females of the new species were so changed
And the gods blessed them, and sent them forth, saying, Be fruitful and multiply
And replenish the earth with your kind, and you will come to dominate all the lands.
And all other species on the earth you shall rule.

And it was so. And the gods saw everything they had made, that it was all good.
And the evening and the morning were the sixth orbit.

[NickHassan]

Hi and welcome HD,
New age?
I prefer the bible.

[Towshab]

You merely prefer it Nick? So you like other beliefs and their texts, but you have a preference for the Christian bible?

[NickHassan]

Hi Tow,
I love reading but for soul food only the bible will do.

[acertainchap]

Quote (Guest @ Jan. 13 2008,05:23)

IN the beginning the gods explored the heavens and discovered the earth; And the earth was without form (animal life) and void (no plants) And darkness was upon the face of the deep (on the backside of the planet) And The Spirit (spaceship) of The Gods moved upon the face of the waters. The gods said “There should be light” (terminator). And there was light. And the gods saw the light, that it was good: and they divided the light from the darkness. Calling the time in light day and the time in darkness night And the evening and the morning were the first orbit. (as the shuttlecraft descends toward the surface) And the gods said, “The waters under the heaven are gathered together unto one place, And the dry land has (now) appeared. (Visible from this altitude) And the gods called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of water called they Seas And the gods saw that all was well. And the gods found the earth brought forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree Yielding fruit, whose seed is in itself after his kind; and they found many good for food. And the evening and the morning were the third orbit. And the gods charted the stars in the firmament of heaven And the sun and moon as they ruled the day and night (To confirm their location in the galaxy) And the gods saw that it was good. (They were not lost). And the gods saw that the waters brought forth moving creatures that have life And fowls that fly above the earth And the gods determined that they were acceptable (as food) And should be left to multiply and fill the lands. And the evening and the morning were the fifth orbit. And the gods said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness, Giving them the intelligence and vitality which we possess. Higher than the fish of the sea and fowls of the air. And above cattle and above all the earth, And everything that crawls upon the ground. So the gods changed humans into the level of advancement and intelligence they possessed Both the males and the females of the new species were so changed And the gods blessed them, and sent them forth, saying, Be fruitful and multiply And replenish the earth with your kind, and you will come to dominate all the lands. And all other species on the earth you shall rule. And it was so. And the gods saw everything they had made, that it was all good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth orbit.

Your kidding me, right?

Here's the real truth…

Genesis 1

The Beginning

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

6 And God said, “Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky.” 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created man in his own image,
      in the image of God he created him;
      male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.

31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

Genesis 2

1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.

2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

[Author]

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