Imperfect church

[mikeangel]

Well now, Lets see, where shall I start? First of all, it is a fact, The Catholic church was the first church. In the beginning everyone was catholic. Later on there were splits. For the record I am Catholic. My father raised me in this faith and as far as I go the holiest man besides Jesus. Personal example speaks louder than talk. #2 The bible commands me to honor my parents. No one can judge me. The men who left the church must have been perfect. That is why in many churches they do not even recite the lords prayer because they were so perfect they had the authority to contradict a direct command and do something differant. They were so perfect they left even the things Jesus dictated.
But lets look at the flip side, and being catholic I have a good grip on our flaws. There are many traditions that have no basis in scripture. Some things are just downright wrong. #1. We excommunicate masons for having secrets(being secret societys) and having a “worshipful master” as head of thier lodges, but, the Knights of Columbus have secret rituals for each of thier four degrees, also in the fourth degree a 'supreme master' and a 'master'. Also out of curiousity why is it the 'Knights of Columbus' and not 'Knights of Christ? #2 How is the pope the 'Holy Father”? He is not holy and he is not my father. #3. Sunday, look at the missal, at good Friday. Get to the part where the priest stands in the back of the church and announces “this is the wood of the cross on which hung the savior of the world”, everyone (except me) responds”thanks be to God”. This is repeated two more times. The priest stands in front as the church processes up, bows, and kisses it. Those people are led to venerate a lie. Jesus, my brother, God and friend, did not hang on those crosses, and to say that they are symbols of the cross is not good enough. That would validate what other denominations say about the eucharist. The eucharist is not a symbol, it is Jesus' body. You know why? Because he said it was. But he didn't hang on those crosses. But you know what? I still go here. Because I am sinful and imperfect and so is my church and so is every church. This is the closest to what I believe,but I do not participate in what I do not agree with. My point is this, no church is perfect, they are run by men and imperfect and sinful, and if you happen to be so self rightious that you believe your church is the only church that will make it to heaven, then I believe you are basing your salvation on “works” and not real faith in God, also you re judgeing and will be liable to judgement. I think every churchmember should find out one thing- Out of every dollar I give how much goes to minister to the poor, the blind and lame, the oppressed and the sick and in prison and the hungry? God repeats over and over in the bible that these are the things he wants, not traditions or arguements like these. Myself I diversify my giving. Some to my church and some to good causes, catholic or not. Godbless

[mikeangel]

Are you ever going to respond to this CA? I brought this over because I thought it would be a good discussion and also I didn't get a response form you.Godbless.

[terraricca]

HI
THIS IS YOUR VIEW ANY TRUE CHRISTIAN KNOWS THAT IS CHURCH IS PERFECT,SO SINSE YOUR IS IMPERFECT ,YOU ARE SUFFERING THE CONCEQUANCE OF THAT RELATIONSHIP.
( My point is this, no church is perfect, they are run by men and imperfect and sinful, and if you happen to be so self )

WE MAY BE SEE THINGS SLITLY DIFFERENTLY WE STILL BELIEVE THAT GOD IS OUR PRIMARY SAVIOR
AND CHRIST THE SON OF GOD AND THE BIBLE IS THE WORD OF GOD WE KNOW THAT EACH ONE OF US WILL STAN BEFORE THE TRIBUNAL OF CHRIST ALONE WITH OUR FAITH.

WE MAY BE, NOT IN LINE YET WITH THE CHURCHE BUT OUR CHURCH IS NOT IN THIS WORLD AND IS NOT RUN BY MEN BUT BY CHRIST,

YOU JUST NOT BECOME A MEMBER OF OUR CHURCH BECAUSE YOU FEEL LIKE IT ,CONDITIONS HAVE TO BE ACCEPTED AND APPLIED FIRST.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeangel @ Feb. 25 2010,06:35)

Are you ever going to respond to this CA? I brought this over because I thought it would be a good discussion and also I didn't get a response form you.Godbless.

Mike

He may respond. But your being here sorta goes against what he has been preaching, that there is “No Divisions” in the RCC and that they are perfect in their faith!

Your being here as a Catholic shows that there is no difference in the Catholics and the Protestants!

Blessings WJ

[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 26 2010,04:09)

Quote (mikeangel @ Feb. 25 2010,06:35) Are you ever going to respond to this CA? I brought this over because I thought it would be a good discussion and also I didn't get a response form you.Godbless. Mike He may respond. But your being here sorta goes against what he has been preaching, that there is “No Divisions” in the RCC and that they are perfect in their faith! Your being here as a Catholic shows that there is no difference in the Catholics and the Protestants! Blessings WJ

Not at all, WJ. I could probably line the highway with guys like him. Just because you go sit in the garage doesn't make you a car.

Is There Unity in The Major Protestant Sects ?

Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is ONE BODY, AND ONE SPIRIT even as ye are called in one hope of your calling. One Lord, one faith, one baptism, etc.—Eph. 4-3 to 5-3:

The Church of Christ Is and must be only ONE (Rom. 12:5, 1 Cor. 10:17, 12:13

Jesus established only one Church, not a collection of differing churches (Lutheran, Baptist, Anglican, and so on). The Bible says the Church is the bride of Christ (Eph. 5:23–32). Jesus can have but one spouse, and his spouse is the Catholic Church.

His Church also teaches just one set of doctrines, which must be the same as those taught by the apostles (Jude 3). This is the unity of belief to which Scripture calls us (Phil. 1:27, 2:2).

Although some Catholics dissent from officially-taught doctrines, the Church’s official teachers—the pope and the bishops united with him—have never changed any doctrine. Over the centuries, as doctrines are examined more fully, the Church comes to understand them more deeply (John 16:12–13), but it never understands them to mean the opposite of what they once meant.

According to “The Christian Sourcebook” (1986 pg.326), there were “21,000 denominations in 1986, with 270 new ones being formed each year.” All of these are Protestant. As of January, 1997, there were more than 28,000 Protestant denominations. Each of these denominations are certain that they are the only group that understands God's revelation, and that no one else in the last 2,000 years has found the true teaching of Jesus.

The Protestant Churches Have Not Unity. In the sects taken all together or individually there is no unity because there is no common teaching and ruling authority to which members must submit. Hence, there is no bond of unity. All the sects together do not form one society. They differ widely and marvelously in faith, and are independent of each other.

Each sect taken by itself has no unity. The members do not know what to believe, and in following the principle of private judgment they have lost the very principle of unity.

In ruling they have no unity. The rule of the leaders in each sect is little respected, easily rejected, and advisory rather than a legislative, judicial and coactive power.

Such must be the type of the only possible leadership or rule which is left them, for the members of each sect guide themselves, not by what the rulers say or direct, but only by their own private judgment. This is the foundation of Protestantism and renders obedience to authority, and even the very existence of authority, impossible. If each individual can judge what he is to believe, an how he is to guide himself according to those individual beliefs, how can any central authority direct individual beliefs, how can any central authority direct individual? If private judgment is the norm for each individual, no other authority can exist. “Baptism, the Eucharist, Penance, Marriage, the sacrifice of the Mass, the historicity and inspiration of the Scriptures, the Resurrection of the Christ Our Lord, His very Divinity—and we might add almost indefinitely to the list—are all doctrines on which an approved and acknowledged member of the Church of England may believe almost anything he chooses. And he is free to do so because he has no authoritative teacher to whom all must listen. No doubt, there are the Holy Scriptures, the early Councils and tradition, which many Anglicans hold in unquestioning reverence. But where is the living authoritative interpreter? Who is to apply the dead rule to present issues? As matters stand, it must be each man’s private judgment. Synods and Convocations, whether or York or Canterbury, of Ireland, or the United States, or even or all the Anglican Churches, make no claim to an infallible authority. Formularies are dead things; and there is no living judge of controversies. No wonder that the very foundation of the Faith are so uncertain, that there is such diversity of belief, and such vital and never-ending differences. And no wonder we fail to find in such a Church that Kingdom of Christ on earth, which He promised should be ever on in faith, in worship and in government.”

BELLOW WE LIST THE SUBDIVISIONS AND SPLINTER GROUPS OF SEVERAL MAJOR PROTESTANT SECTS

1.

Lutherans
2. Reformed Church
3. Anglicans
4. Presbyterians
5. Baptist
6. Methodist

Lutheran: The name of an heretical sect founded by Martin Luther, who was born at Eisleben, Germany, Nov. 10, 1483; attended a Catholic Latin school at Mansfeld, and in 1497, when fourteen years old, entered another Catholic University of Erfurt in Thuringia, in 1501, where he became a Master of Philosophy at the age of twenty. On July 17, 1505 he entered the Augustinian monastery at Erfurt, and in 1507 was ordained a Catholic priest. In 1508 he was made professor of philosophy at the new Catholic University of Wittenberg, visited Rome in 1510 or 1511 on business of his Order, and sometime after his return began to lecture on the Scriptures. On Oct. 31, 1517 he nailed his 95 theses against indulgences to the door of the church in Wittenberg. On Sept. 21, 1520 he was excommunicated by Pope Leo X. Later he married an ex-nun, Catherine von Bora, and finally died in 1546.

Luther denied tradition; the divine authority of the Papacy; that councils were infallible; that original justice was a supernatural gift; that human nature remained essentially the same in its powers after the fall of Adam; that man, after the fall, can produce any good works; held that man sins in whatever he does; that the sins of the just are covered by faith and not done away with; maintained that all works of sinners are sins; denied free-will; all the Sacraments except Baptism and the Eucharist; transubstantiation; the Sacrifice of the Mass; purgatory and the utility of praying to the Saints; he maintained that vows are made to the devil; that concupiscence is invincible; that the sensual instincts are irrepressible, and held that the gratification of sexual propensities is as natural and inexorable as the performance of any of the physiological necessities of our being. Lutheranism in general and all the Protestant sects that developed from it were condemned by the Council of Treat (1545-1563).

1818 – Ohio Lutheran Synod

1930 – American Lutheran Church

1988 – Evangelical Lutheran Church of America

1820 – General Lutheran Synod

1863 – United Synod South
1867 – General Lutheran Council

1918 – United Lutheran Church in America

1962 – Lutheran Church in America

1988 – Evangelical Lutheran Church of America

1847 – Lutheran Church Missouri Synod

1976 – Association of Evangelical Lutherans

1988 – Evangelical Lutheran Church of America

1854 Iowa Lutheran Synod

1930 – American Lutheran Church

1988 – Evangelical Lutheran Church of America

1860 – Swedish Augustana Synod

1962 – Lutheran Church in America

1988 – Evangelical Lutheran Church of America

1872 – American Evangelical Lutheran Church

1962 – Lutheran Church in America

1988 – Evangelical Lutheran Church of America

1890 – Finnish Evangelical Lutheran Church

1962 – Lutheran Church in America

1988 – Evangelical Lutheran Church of America

1896 – United Evangelical Lutheran Church

1960 – American Lutheran Church

1988 – Evangelical Lutheran Church of America

1900 – Church of the Lutheran Brethren of America

1988 – Evangelical Lutheran Church of America

1918 – Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod

1929 – Apostolic Lutheran Church of America

Reformed Church: Guido de Bres, a Dutch reformer of Brabant, together with others, wrote in 1561 the statement of faith, called the Belgic Confession, which formed the doctrinal foundation of the Reformed Dutch Church.

These heretics believed in predestination; denied the supremacy of the Pope; free-will; the Sacraments; good works; purgatory; the forgiveness of sin, and considered the Scriptures the only rule of faith.

1628 – Dutch Reformed Church

1857 – Christian Reformed Church

1926 – Protestant Reformed Churches of America

1867 – Reformed Church in America

1628 – Puritans/Congregationalists

Evangelical Protestant Church of North America

1931 – Congregational Christian Churches

1957 – United Church of Christ

1790 – Universalists

1961 – Unitarian Universalist Association

1793 – German Reformed Church

1826 – Churches of God in North America
1869 – Reformed Church in the United States

1934 – Evangelical and Reformed Church

1957 – United Church of Christ

1801 – Christians/Churches of Christ

1832 – Christian Church/Disciples of Christ

1807 – Disciples of Christ

1832 – Christian Church/Disciples of Christ

1849 – Evangelical Synod of North America

1934 – Evangelical and Reformed Church

1957 – United Church of Christ

Anglican Branch: Members of the Church of England, which was founded by Henry VIII and established as the national church of that country in 1534 by an act of Parliament. Henry decided to establish his own church because the Catholic Church would not allow him to divorce his wife and remarry. In his Bull “Apostolicae Curae” published Sept. 18 1896, Pope Leo XIII declared Anglican Order to be invalid.

The Anglicans, as they are commonly called, believe in justification by faith alone ; hold that the Bible is sufficient for salvation and that it is to be interpreted privately; deny the supremacy of the Pope and hold the King supreme in spiritual matters; deny the doctrine of Transubstantiation, purgatory, and condemn the Veneration of the Saints.

1787 – Protestant Episcopal Church

1861 – North Protestant Episcopal Church

1865 Protestant Episcopal Church

1873 – Reformed Episcopal Church

1861 – South Protestant Episcopal Church

1865 Protestant Episcopal Church

1873 – Reformed Episcopal Church

Presbyterian Branch: A religious denomination that owes its formation to John Knox, who was born at Gifford, East Lothian, Scotland, in 1505. He was ordained to the priesthood in 1530. In 1542 he sided with Protestant movement, and thereafter, until his death at Edinburgh in 1572, was most active in attacking the Catholic Church.

1706 – Presbyterian Church

1741 – New Side Presbyterian Church

1758 – Presbyterian Church

1741 – Old Side Presbyterian Church

1758 – Presbyterian Church
1810 – Cumberland Presbyterian Church
1837 – New School

1870 – Presbyterian Church, U.S.A.

1937 – Orthodox Presbyterian Church

Bible Presbyterian Church

1956 – Bible Presbyterian Church
1965 – Reformed Presbyterian Church, Evangelical Synod

1982 – Presbyterian Church of America

1837 – Old School

1861 – Presbyterian Church, Confederate States

Presbyterian Church in the United States

1973 – Presbyterian Church of America
1983 – Presbyterian Church, USA

1870 – Presbyterian Church, U.S.A.

1937 – Orthodox Presbyterian Church

Bible Presbyterian Church

1956 – Bible Presbyterian Church
1965 – Reformed Presbyterian Church, Evangelical Synod

1982 – Presbyterian Church of America

1752 – Reformed Presbytery

1833 – Reformed Presbyterian Church of No. America (Covenanters)

Associate Presbyterian Church

1858 – United Presbyterian Church of No. America

1958 – United Presbyterian Church, USA

1983 – Presbyterian Church, USA

Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church

1822 – Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church (Covenanters)

1958 – United Presbyterian Church, USA

1983 – Presbyterian Church, USA

1774 – Reformed Presbyterian Church in North America

1965 – Reformed Presbyterian Church, Evangelical Synod

1982 – Presbyterian Church of America

Baptist Branch: Founded by John Smith, at one time pastor of a church at Gainsborough, Lincolnshire, England, that had separated from the Church of England. About 1606, to escape persecution, he and his flock emigrated to Amsterdam. Smith died in 1612.

Taught only baptism of immersion t be valid; predestination; denied free-will; good works ;purgatory; the Sacraments, and the forgiveness of sin.

1639 – British Separatists

1672 – Seventh-Day Baptists
1727 – Free Will Baptists
1770 – Old Lights

1787 – General Association of Separatists Baptists
1814 – Baptist Missionary Convention

1827 – Primitive Baptists
1845 – Northern Baptist Convention

1932 – General Assoc. of Regular Baptist Churches

1947 – Conservative Baptist Assoc. of America
1950 – America Baptist Convention

1770 – New Lights

1780 – Free Will Baptists (North)

1827 – Primitive Baptists
1910 – Northern Baptist Convention

1814 – Baptist Missionary Convention

1845 – Southern Baptist Convention

1895 – National Baptist Convention of America

1915 – National Baptist Convention of the U.S.A., Inc.

1961 – Progressive Baptist Convention

1905 – American Baptist Association

1895 – Northern Baptist Convention of America

1932 – General Assoc. of Regular Baptist Churches
1947 – Conservative Baptist Association of America
1950 – American Baptist Convention

Methodist: Founded by John Wesley, who was born at Epworth, Lincolnshire, England, June 17, 1703. He was ordained a clergyman of the Anglican Church in 1728, and in 1736, when he visited Savannah in Georgia, came into contact with Moravian doctrines. He organized the first Methodist Society in 1739. Shortly after he left the Anglican Communion and organized his own church.

The Methodist doctrine is borrowed from the Anglicans and Calvanists. They hold Scripture to be the sole and sufficient rule of belief and practice; teach justification by faith alone, although the practice of good works is commended; condemn works of supererogation; admit only two sacraments; condemn the invocation of the Saints and the veneration of sacred images and relics; and deny purgatory.

1784 – Methodist Episcopal Church

1816 – African Methodist Episcopal Church
1821 – African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church
1830 – Methodist Protestant Church/Bible Protestant Church

1939 – Methodist Church

1946 – Evangelical Methodist Church
1968 – United Methodist Church

1843 – Wesleyan Methodist Church of America

1968 Wesleyan Church

1844 – Methodist Episcopal

1860 – Free Methodist Church
1908 – Church of the Nazarene
1939 – Methodist Church

1946 – Evangelical Methodist Church
1968 – United Methodist Church

1844 – Methodist Episcopal Church (South)

1870 – Christian Methodist Episcopal Church

1897 – Pilgrim Holiness Church

1968 – Wesleyan Church

1800 – Church of the United Brethren in Christ

1946 – Evangelical United Brethren Church

1807 – Evangelical Church

1946 – Evangelical United Brethren Church

1829 – Primitive Methodist Church
1886 – Church of God (Cleveland, TN)

1923 – Tomlinson Church of God

1943 – Church of God (Queens Village, NY)

1953 – Church of God of Prophecy

1957 – Church of God of All Nations

1886 – Church of God

1922 – Original Church of God, Inc.

1886 – United Holy Church of America, Inc.

1898 – Fire-Baptized Holiness Church

1953 – Emanuel Holiness Church
1911 – Pentecostal Holiness Church

1918 – Pentecostal Fire-Baptized Holiness Church

1899 – Pentecostal Holiness Church

1911 – Pentecostal Holiness Church

1901 – Pentecostal Union

1917 – Pillar of Fire

1914 – Assemblies of God, General Council
1914 – Church of God by Faith, Inc.
1914 – Pentecostal Assemblies of the World, Inc.

1924 – Pentecostal Church, Inc.

1945 – United Pentecostal Church, Inc.

Pentecostal Assemblies of Jesus Christ, Inc.

1917 – Pentecostal Church of Christ
1918 – International Church of the Foursquare Gospel
1919 – Pentecostal Church of God of America, Inc.
1919 – International Pentecostal Assemblies
1919 – Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ of the Apostolic Faith, Inc.

1957 – Bible Way Church, World-Wide

1919 – Bible Standard, Inc.

1935 – Open Bible Standard Churches, Inc.

1932 – Open Bible Evangelistic Association

1935 – Open Bible Standard Churches, Inc.

1932 – Calvary Pentecostal Church, Inc.
1947 – Elim Missionary Assemblies

[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (mikeangel @ Feb. 25 2010,22:33)

Well now, Lets see, where shall I start? First of all, it is a fact, The Catholic church was the first church. In the beginning everyone was catholic. Later on there were splits. For the record I am Catholic. My father raised me in this faith and as far as I go the holiest man besides Jesus. Personal example speaks louder than talk. #2 The bible commands me to honor my parents. No one can judge me. The men who left the church must have been perfect. That is why in many churches they do not even recite the lords prayer because they were so perfect they had the authority to contradict a direct command and do something differant. They were so perfect they left even the things Jesus dictated.    But lets look at the flip side, and being catholic I have a good grip on our flaws. There are many traditions that have no basis in scripture. Some things are just downright wrong.   #1. We excommunicate masons for having secrets(being secret societys) and having a “worshipful master” as head of thier lodges, but, the Knights of Columbus have secret rituals for each of thier four degrees, also in the fourth degree a 'supreme master' and a 'master'. Also out of curiousity why is it the 'Knights of Columbus' and not 'Knights of Christ?  #2 How is the pope the 'Holy Father”? He is not holy and he is not my father.  #3. Sunday, look at the missal, at good Friday. Get to the part where the priest stands in the back of the church and announces “this is the wood of the cross on which hung the savior of the world”, everyone (except me) responds”thanks be to God”. This is repeated two more times. The priest stands in front as the church processes up, bows, and kisses it. Those people are led to venerate a lie. Jesus, my brother, God and friend, did not hang on those crosses, and to say that they are symbols of the cross is not good enough. That would validate what other denominations say about the eucharist. The eucharist is not a symbol, it is Jesus' body. You know why? Because he said it was. But he didn't hang on those crosses. But you know what? I still go here. Because I am sinful and imperfect and so is my church and so is every church. This is the closest to what I believe,but I do not participate in what I do not agree with. My point is this, no church is perfect, they are run by men and imperfect and sinful, and if you happen to be so self rightious that you believe your church is the only church that will make it to heaven, then I believe you are basing your salvation on “works” and not real faith in God, also you re judgeing and will be liable to judgement.   I think every churchmember should find out one thing- Out of every dollar I give how much goes to minister to the poor, the blind and lame, the oppressed and the sick and in prison and the hungry? God repeats over and over in the bible that these are the things he wants, not traditions or arguements like these. Myself I diversify my giving. Some to my church and some to good causes, catholic or not. Godbless

Look, you may THINK you are Catholic. But you sound an awful lot like a Protestant.

When you go and start making statements like this:

“No one can judge me.”

You prove that you have not been properly catechized. I'm sure you don't realize it, but you are scandalous in your behavior. You say things like:

“There are many traditions that have no basis in scripture.”

If you WERE Catholic, you would know that not all apostolic traditions are in Scripture. (Lent for example)

To everyone else:

Either this guy is a deceiver and is NOT Catholic at all. OR even worse, he is a CINO (Catholic in name only) and doesn't know his faith.

mikeangel,

I pray God grants you repentance unto life…

God love your soul

[NickHassan]

Hi CA.
Does being properly catechised mean fully brainwashed?
Does it mean you accept the traditions of men ahead of the Word of God?

[mikeangel]

CA , you never did answer any of the things in that statement. But first let me say this, As God lives I have been Catholic from birth, I just know and thank God that no man will judge me, God himself will. I have been blessed with knowing some great priest, and cursed with knowing some mean ones. The one I have now doesn't have much compassion, he chastises people during mass openly and out loud.People have left because of him. What about them? What about the guy who was sexually abused? What about the cross veneration ? Are you ever going to stop dodgeing direct questions? It it easier to justify yourself by condemning others because they are not Catholic? What about all the secrets and rituals in the Kof C?  Answer the questions please and stop  side stepping. I left the K of C but if you want to me to prove I am Catholic I could start with telling you the “secrets” of the first degree. Would that help? I just think that selfrightious Catholics like you give the rest of us meek and humble ones a bad name. May God forgive YOU. Godbless.

[KangarooJack]

Quote (mikeangel @ Feb. 26 2010,07:24)

CA , you never did answer any of the things in that statement. But first let me say this, As God lives I have been Catholic from birth, I just know and thank God that no man will judge me, God himself will. I have been blessed with knowing some great priest, and cursed with knowing some mean ones. The one I have now doesn't have much compassion, he chastises people during mass openly and out loud.People have left because of him. What about them? What about the guy who was sexually abused? What about the cross veneration ? Are you ever going to stop dodgeing direct questions? It it easier to justify yourself by condemning others because they are not Catholic? What about all the secrets and rituals in the Kof C?  Answer the questions please and stop  side stepping. I left the K of C but if you want to me to prove I am Catholic I could start with telling you the “secrets” of the first degree.  Would that help? I just think that selfrightious Catholics like you give the rest of us meek and humble ones a bad name. May God forgive YOU. Godbless.

Mikeangel,

You are loved by me brother! I don't know what's up with CA. He came here and then left for awhile. He came back with a vengence for some reason.

thinker

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 25 2010,12:35)

WJ.  I could probably line the highway with guys like him.  Just because you go sit in the garage doesn't make you a car. Is There Unity in The Major Protestant Sects ?=

Ca

I am not all for denominations either. But not all Protestants or non-Catholics are part of a denomination.

Many meet in homes and rented spaces “assembling” themselves together in the name of Jesus and Jesus said he would be in their midst.

You speak against those denominations as if every soul in them is condemned or not saved.

So I ask you again, do you believe that not a single soul in those “Assemblies” are saved or can be saved apart from the Catholic Church?

Blessings WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 25 2010,12:42)

Look, you may THINK you are Catholic.  But you sound an awful lot like a Protestant. When you go and start making statements like this: “No one can judge me.” You prove that you have not been properly catechized.  I'm sure you don't realize it, but you are scandalous in your behavior.  You say things like: “There are many traditions that have no basis in scripture.” If you WERE Catholic, you would know that not all apostolic traditions are in Scripture.  (Lent for example) To everyone else: Either this guy is a deceiver and is NOT Catholic at all.  OR even worse, he is a CINO (Catholic in name only) and doesn't know his faith.

CA

Once upon a time you were Protestant. Do you think God judged you like you do others that are not part of the CC?

Blessings WJ

[mikeangel]

Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 26 2010,07:51)

Quote (mikeangel @ Feb. 26 2010,07:24) CA , you never did answer any of the things in that statement. But first let me say this, As God lives I have been Catholic from birth, I just know and thank God that no man will judge me, God himself will. I have been blessed with knowing some great priest, and cursed with knowing some mean ones. The one I have now doesn't have much compassion, he chastises people during mass openly and out loud.People have left because of him. What about them? What about the guy who was sexually abused? What about the cross veneration ? Are you ever going to stop dodgeing direct questions? It it easier to justify yourself by condemning others because they are not Catholic? What about all the secrets and rituals in the Kof C?  Answer the questions please and stop  side stepping. I left the K of C but if you want to me to prove I am Catholic I could start with telling you the “secrets” of the first degree.  Would that help? I just think that selfrightious Catholics like you give the rest of us meek and humble ones a bad name. May God forgive YOU. Godbless. Mikeangel, You are loved by me brother! I don't know what's up with CA. He came here and then left for awhile. He came back with a vengence for some reason. thinker

Thinker, You are loved too my brother. One day we will stand in a perfect church. As Enoch describes it the walls will be of fire and the floor clear  as crystal. Fire will be streaming out from the throne and hopefully we will have a pearl to present to our holy father. Blessings to you too. P.S. I thnk the truth hurts some people so they ignore it .

[mikeangel]

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 26 2010,03:29)

HI THIS IS YOUR VIEW ANY TRUE CHRISTIAN KNOWS THAT IS CHURCH IS PERFECT,SO SINSE YOUR IS IMPERFECT ,YOU ARE SUFFERING THE CONCEQUANCE OF THAT RELATIONSHIP. ( My point is this, no church is perfect, they are run by men and imperfect and sinful, and if you happen to be so self ) WE MAY BE SEE THINGS SLITLY DIFFERENTLY WE STILL BELIEVE THAT GOD IS OUR PRIMARY SAVIOR AND CHRIST THE SON OF GOD AND THE BIBLE IS THE WORD OF GOD WE KNOW THAT EACH ONE OF US WILL STAN BEFORE THE TRIBUNAL OF CHRIST ALONE WITH OUR FAITH. WE MAY BE, NOT IN LINE YET WITH THE CHURCHE BUT OUR CHURCH IS NOT IN THIS WORLD AND IS NOT RUN BY MEN BUT BY CHRIST, YOU JUST NOT BECOME A MEMBER OF OUR CHURCH BECAUSE YOU FEEL LIKE IT ,CONDITIONS HAVE TO BE ACCEPTED AND APPLIED FIRST.

Our church? Explain please. Conditions? I have been baptised, and I believe Jesus was God become flesh, and he sacrificed himself for my sins so I may be forgiven, and I do my best to follow his will as best as I can as I read it in his word. What other conditions do you have in mind? Godbless.

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
He said he was the son of that God.
God was in him according to 2 Cor 5.
Was he also the God that was in him??

[mikeangel]

Nick,
I believe the divinity of Jesus, God, and the spirit are incomprehandable. I do not want to debate on the trinity. I will quote this-John 8v58 “I solemnly declare it, before Abraham came to be, I AM ” I AM also was the name God gave Moses from the burning bush, Ex 3v14 “This is what you shall tell the Israelites: I AM sent me to you”. I don't comprehend the connection of three but one, but somehow Jesus is God's son and God. If I err, God knows I'm human and love him and one day will explain everything; but somehow I get the feeling that when we see God face to face we will know without a word being said. I can't wait. Godbless

[NickHassan]

Hi MA,
No God filled His Son with His Spirit.
Only two key players.
Comprehensible.

Not mystery babylon whose work is to muddy the waters.

The Spirit of God in Christ was before Abraham.

[942767]

Hi Mike:

Quote

Ephesians 4:11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Elizabeth]

Quote (mikeangel @ Feb. 25 2010,22:33)

Well now, Lets see, where shall I start? First of all, it is a fact, The Catholic church was the first church. In the beginning everyone was catholic. Later on there were splits. For the record I am Catholic. My father raised me in this faith and as far as I go the holiest man besides Jesus. Personal example speaks louder than talk. #2 The bible commands me to honor my parents. No one can judge me. The men who left the church must have been perfect. That is why in many churches they do not even recite the lords prayer because they were so perfect they had the authority to contradict a direct command and do something differant. They were so perfect they left even the things Jesus dictated.    But lets look at the flip side, and being catholic I have a good grip on our flaws. There are many traditions that have no basis in scripture. Some things are just downright wrong.   #1. We excommunicate masons for having secrets(being secret societys) and having a “worshipful master” as head of thier lodges, but, the Knights of Columbus have secret rituals for each of thier four degrees, also in the fourth degree a 'supreme master' and a 'master'. Also out of curiousity why is it the 'Knights of Columbus' and not 'Knights of Christ?  #2 How is the pope the 'Holy Father”? He is not holy and he is not my father.  #3. Sunday, look at the missal, at good Friday. Get to the part where the priest stands in the back of the church and announces “this is the wood of the cross on which hung the savior of the world”, everyone (except me) responds”thanks be to God”. This is repeated two more times. The priest stands in front as the church processes up, bows, and kisses it. Those people are led to venerate a lie. Jesus, my brother, God and friend, did not hang on those crosses, and to say that they are symbols of the cross is not good enough. That would validate what other denominations say about the eucharist. The eucharist is not a symbol, it is Jesus' body. You know why? Because he said it was. But he didn't hang on those crosses. But you know what? I still go here. Because I am sinful and imperfect and so is my church and so is every church. This is the closest to what I believe,but I do not participate in what I do not agree with. My point is this, no church is perfect, they are run by men and imperfect and sinful, and if you happen to be so self rightious that you believe your church is the only church that will make it to heaven, then I believe you are basing your salvation on “works” and not real faith in God, also you re judgeing and will be liable to judgement.   I think every churchmember should find out one thing- Out of every dollar I give how much goes to minister to the poor, the blind and lame, the oppressed and the sick and in prison and the hungry? God repeats over and over in the bible that these are the things he wants, not traditions or arguements like these. Myself I diversify my giving. Some to my church and some to good causes, catholic or not. Godbless

mike

I too was raised a Catholic, never even read the Bible till I was 45; then everything changed.
I don't totally agree with you on the Catholic church being first. There were Christians, and there were bishops, overseers, but they were not Catholic (universal), not until Constantine made that religion universal (Catholic) in 324 AD.
Yes, I left the Catholic church, but not because I was prefect, but rather by beginning to read the Bible I saw the many wrongs of the church.
The Lords prayer is so called because Jesus “gave” it to us, but it is not a prayer to be resided, it is to show us how we should pray to the Father.
What is excommunication? it is a scare tactic by the church to keep superstitious people in the church. Did Jesus ever excommunicate any one? no, he died for all.
You are right, no one is holy but God, and only God can make some none else holy; besides, holy means, set aside for special purpose, or use; that is why all the tools of the temple, and altar, in the OT were holy.
You are right not to venerate the cross, it is the “mark” of the beast/Rome.
But you are wrong in your thinking that “good” Friday was the day Jesus was crucified. Jesus died on Wednesday, Thursday was the “first” day of unleavened bread, an annual Sabbath, or high day,

Jhn 19:31 ¶ The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
Lev 23:4 ¶ These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
Lev 23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover.
Lev 23:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
Lev 23:7 In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.

From Wednesday evening burial to Thursday evening, one day; to Friday evening, two days; to Saturday evening , three days. Jesus said that would be his sign, that after “three” days he would rise again.
The Eucharist is the abomination Daniel spoke of, Dan. 9:27, and here is the reason why.

Hbr 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Christ died for us “once”, and look at the next scripture.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

He died for our sins, all of our sins, by this one sacrifice.

Hbr 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Hbr 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

There is no more sacrifice for sins necessary, Christ did it all.
When one corrects some one else, and he presents scripture to the fact, then he is not judging, he is trying to correct.
If you are aware of all the wrongs in your church, shouldn't you be doing what Jesus said, “come out of her “my people”?

Georg

[mikeangel]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 26 2010,14:43)

Hi MA, No God filled His Son with His Spirit. Only two key players. Comprehensible.   Not mystery babylon whose work is to muddy the waters. The Spirit of God in Christ was before Abraham.

Nick,
Before the spirit desended on Jesus at his baptism, Gabriel told Mary she would concieve by the power of the holy spirit.Please explain how he was both 'born' of the holy spirit and then 'filled' with the holy spirit. Explain how he was born of the holy spirit, being she was a virgin and did not “know” man. Do not say “miracle”, I would like you to explain it because you comprehend God. Also Please explain Matt1v22 “and they shall call him Emmanuel,” a name which means “God is with us”. Explain why it doesn't mean “a man filled with the holy spirit is with us” rather “God”. Godbless.

[mikeangel]

Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 26 2010,23:42)

Quote (mikeangel @ Feb. 25 2010,22:33) Well now, Lets see, where shall I start? First of all, it is a fact, The Catholic church was the first church. In the beginning everyone was catholic. Later on there were splits. For the record I am Catholic. My father raised me in this faith and as far as I go the holiest man besides Jesus. Personal example speaks louder than talk. #2 The bible commands me to honor my parents. No one can judge me. The men who left the church must have been perfect. That is why in many churches they do not even recite the lords prayer because they were so perfect they had the authority to contradict a direct command and do something differant. They were so perfect they left even the things Jesus dictated.    But lets look at the flip side, and being catholic I have a good grip on our flaws. There are many traditions that have no basis in scripture. Some things are just downright wrong.   #1. We excommunicate masons for having secrets(being secret societys) and having a “worshipful master” as head of thier lodges, but, the Knights of Columbus have secret rituals for each of thier four degrees, also in the fourth degree a 'supreme master' and a 'master'. Also out of curiousity why is it the 'Knights of Columbus' and not 'Knights of Christ?  #2 How is the pope the 'Holy Father”? He is not holy and he is not my father.  #3. Sunday, look at the missal, at good Friday. Get to the part where the priest stands in the back of the church and announces “this is the wood of the cross on which hung the savior of the world”, everyone (except me) responds”thanks be to God”. This is repeated two more times. The priest stands in front as the church processes up, bows, and kisses it. Those people are led to venerate a lie. Jesus, my brother, God and friend, did not hang on those crosses, and to say that they are symbols of the cross is not good enough. That would validate what other denominations say about the eucharist. The eucharist is not a symbol, it is Jesus' body. You know why? Because he said it was. But he didn't hang on those crosses. But you know what? I still go here. Because I am sinful and imperfect and so is my church and so is every church. This is the closest to what I believe,but I do not participate in what I do not agree with. My point is this, no church is perfect, they are run by men and imperfect and sinful, and if you happen to be so self rightious that you believe your church is the only church that will make it to heaven, then I believe you are basing your salvation on “works” and not real faith in God, also you re judgeing and will be liable to judgement.   I think every churchmember should find out one thing- Out of every dollar I give how much goes to minister to the poor, the blind and lame, the oppressed and the sick and in prison and the hungry? God repeats over and over in the bible that these are the things he wants, not traditions or arguements like these. Myself I diversify my giving. Some to my church and some to good causes, catholic or not. Godbless mike I too was raised a Catholic, never even read the Bible till I was 45; then everything changed. I don't totally agree with you on the Catholic church being first. There were Christians, and there were bishops, overseers, but they were not Catholic (universal), not until Constantine made that religion universal (Catholic) in 324 AD. Yes, I left the Catholic church, but not because I was prefect, but rather by beginning to read the Bible I saw the many wrongs of the church. The Lords prayer is so called because Jesus “gave” it to us, but it is not a prayer to be resided, it is to show us how we should pray to the Father. What is excommunication? it is a scare tactic by the church to keep superstitious people in the church. Did Jesus ever excommunicate any one? no, he died for all. You are right, no one is holy but God, and only God can make some none else holy; besides, holy means, set aside for special purpose, or use; that is why all the tools of the temple, and altar, in the OT were holy. You are right not to venerate the cross, it is the “mark” of the beast/Rome. But you are wrong in your thinking that “good” Friday was the day Jesus was crucified. Jesus died on Wednesday, Thursday was the “first” day of unleavened bread, an annual Sabbath, or high day, Jhn 19:31 ¶ The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.   Lev 23:4 ¶ These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.   Lev 23:5   In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover.   Lev 23:6   And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.   Lev 23:7   In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.   From Wednesday evening burial to Thursday evening, one day; to Friday evening, two days; to Saturday evening , three days. Jesus said that would be his sign, that after “three” days he would rise again. The Eucharist is the abomination Daniel spoke of, Dan. 9:27, and here is the reason why. Hbr 10:10   By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Christ died for us “once”, and look at the next scripture. Col 2:13   And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;   He died for our sins, all of our sins, by this one sacrifice. Hbr 10:12   But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;   Hbr 10:18   Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.   There is no more sacrifice for sins necessary, Christ did it all. When one corrects some one else, and he presents scripture to the fact, then he is not judging, he is trying to correct. If you are aware of all the wrongs in your church, shouldn't you be doing what Jesus said, “come out of her “my people”? Georg

Georg,
 You are free to think what you want. I have read many of your post and know that you pretty much think Catholics are followers of the antichrist, the pope. Men have fought and died for you to have that right to think and say whatever you want, and if you read it that way, then go on dude, hurl all the accusations you want. Yes, it was the church. It had bishops and all that and an order. I have studied history and I have found that from the beginning it was loosely connected, but shortly became the church. I will only point you to wikipedia. In the description under the title, it states “the worlds largest and original chirstian church” If you would like read it and after that if you don't agree with history I got nothing for you. I will say this- My father taught me about self justification “son, you can justify anything if you think about it long enough, but it doesn't make it right” . Also I am not being like CA, I believe anyone that believes in Jesus that tries to do his will and loves God with his whole heart and treats others like they want to be treated is acceptable to God.  I believe there are leaders in  my church that are like the pharisees in Jesus
' day. I believe teleevangelist are false phrophets because they are christ mongers after money living the high life. I believe there are priest and religious that have great hearts that minister to the poor and set good examples we all should follow (do you believe Mother Theresa is damned?) I believe in the beginning the christians were one like Jesus prayed but due to the sinful nature of man and his ego we are split into many factions, but Jesus will come one day and it says somewhere in Isaiah “those at fault will recieve instruction” Maybe that be me. Maybe that be you. But tell me. and be honest. What are you doing right now for the poor, the blind, the sick and in prison or the orphaned.  Tell me by the honor of your faith. As it is written show me the works that underlies your faith.James 2v18 (straight from gods word) Show me your faith without works, and I will show you the faith that underlies my works!” Talk is cheap. You too Nick. Not that you are saved by those works, but honestly, what are you doing for God? Godbless

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