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Hi t8
Quote I use to be an atheist and still understand all the arguments for it. It's just that no atheist has offered anything new and if I changed from not believing to believing and then you offer no new information, then what chance will you have of convincing me that there is no God? Probably no chance.
OK. We have already established that Saul of Tarsus has immunised you from reality. Have you gone back and analysed the manner of your conversion to delusion? We all started out as atheists, some fall under the spell of a meme which has been shown to spread in the same way as a virus. Critical thinking is an antidote, but that is what your immunity protects you from. How do the christians who become atheist do it? They must realise they were living a sham. That process must arise from some temporary weakening of the symptoms of infection by this meme.Quote Of course the absurdity of a singularity coming from nothing and expanding on its own an producing life, galaxies, stars, and planets is just so funny when you think about it, that it is actually hard to take it seriously.
OK. Laugh then. I don’t know anything about the singularity itself so I don’t particularly care. Shall we have a laugh about the origins of monotheism too? Shall we chortle over those early Jews who worked so hard to convince people to drop a few gods to lower status so they could have an official one god policy?Quote Stu, I am very open to what people say.
You simply don’t understand what I write. That is why you find new and equally dull ways to express exactly the same argument over and over. As if that impresses anyone who knows what you are doing.Quote But what they say has to have substance and I also respond positively to those who are honest about questions that are asked of them. Your silence on giving a good explanation as to how something comes from nothing is quite deafening.
I am flattered that you copy my language. You are in exactly the same position. Creation ex nihilo isn’t it? What is your explanation? The voice of god? And you say it with a straight face. What a dry joker you are.Quote In addition to that, I have had amazing experiences in God, that if I told you some of the things that have happened to me, I am sure that you wouldn't believe my words.
I don’t believe what you have written needs any supernatural explanation. It is all pretty common human experience. It is just that you don’t understand design and coincidence.Quote In other words your weak argument cannot overcome my strong experiences from God and that is what it boils down to for me.
OK. I don’t think I have made a weak argument anywhere. Can you remind me what it was? Come to think of it, can you tell me of one single experience that you have had which cannot be explained in naturalistic terms?Stuart
Quote (942767 @ Sep. 05 2008,22:47) Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 06 2008,15:19) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 05 2008,22:00) Hi KJ: To be perfectly honest, I and others have also thought that is what he said, but no, he did not say any thing about the dietary laws. I do not eat pork myself.
If nothing that goes into the body can defile a person, where does that leave the dietary laws?
Hi KJ:He said those things that defile a man come from within his heart, and that is a spiritual matter.
Dietary laws that have been instituted by God are laws that apply to the health of the human body. It would not be good to make a steady diet of pork because it would probably lead to high blood pressure, for example.
Here you advocate not having a steady diet of pork while supposedly Yahweh said NO pork? So who is right, you or Yahweh?
Quote He did say the following that may be interpreted to mean that he was including those meats that God declared unclean: Quote Mar 7:18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, [it] cannot defile him;
Mar 7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?It may, then, not be a sin to eat an unclean food because it passes into the body and out, but still it would make sense that God's laws regarding a person's diet were established for his own health and well being.
So, tell me why Jesus says all foods are clean and why this is not going against the dietary laws of the Torah? Was Moses wrong about divorce AND the dietary laws?Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 06 2008,00:16) Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 06 2008,15:28) I am truly sorry you cannot differentiate criticism of the bible with “trashing your beliefs”. Perhaps your beliefs have little in common with reality.
Do you realize people have given their lives to defend the bible from criticism?
Do you also realize that others have lost their life because of what the bible says? Or the Koran?Quote (t8 @ Sep. 06 2008,03:37) Well KJ, you are free of course to argue against peoples faith and call it myth etc. You are also free to reject YHWH. At least I cannot be accused of not trying to help you. At the end of the day, your will is yours and I respect that. Still I think there is an important lesson here for those of faith and that is when you reject the son, you reject all his works too, and that of course includes those whom he has worked through.
You take it one step too far. I reject no person. But I understand because Christians seem to be unable to differentiate rejection of Christianity without rejection of Christians.Makes you wonder if Christians need to stop spouting the phrase “Hate the sin but love the sinner”. If you do not believe that I have nothing against Christians while rejecting Christianity, then I must also not believe you cannot hate homosexuality without hating the homosexual.
Quote (Stu @ Sep. 05 2008,23:23) Quote (theodorej @ Sep. 05 2008,21:53) Quote (Stu @ Aug. 31 2008,22:33) Quote You'll never prove Yeshua was a sinner from the Bible texts Kejonn. It's foolish to even try. The evidence to the contrary is overwhelming.
The evidence that Jesus existed is not overhelming. How do you know so much about the details of what he did?Stuart
Greetings Stu …..Sometimes evidence does't have to be overwelming,however, it does have to be conclusive…The existance of Jesus is represented historically and acknowledged by many learned people,who I might add are not all christians,and some are athiests…Many people wrote of the life of Jesus,not only the authors of the Gospels(eg.the Bible )….It is from these multiple writings that the Bible was assembled….The difference between the many writings and the Bible is the inspiration of the creator on those who penned his word….This inspiration is evident in the consistancy of the message….Is it overwelming ? No! but it is conclusive…..
The evidence that Jesus existed is thin but the evidence that he was not a sinner is overwhelming. What is conclusive is that christians use fantasyland logic. This is only one piece of the overwhelming evidence for that.Stuart
Greetings Stu….Now you have my attention….The evidence that Jesus was a sinner has eluded me for years…Now at last in light of the information you are about to devulge I will be able to bring closure to the many open questions I have had on this topic….Please share with me what you know to be the conclusive facts….(conclusive facts being….The Truth )Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 07 2008,00:11) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 05 2008,22:47) Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 06 2008,15:19) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 05 2008,22:00) Hi KJ: To be perfectly honest, I and others have also thought that is what he said, but no, he did not say any thing about the dietary laws. I do not eat pork myself.
If nothing that goes into the body can defile a person, where does that leave the dietary laws?
Hi KJ:He said those things that defile a man come from within his heart, and that is a spiritual matter.
Dietary laws that have been instituted by God are laws that apply to the health of the human body. It would not be good to make a steady diet of pork because it would probably lead to high blood pressure, for example.
Here you advocate not having a steady diet of pork while supposedly Yahweh said NO pork? So who is right, you or Yahweh?
Quote He did say the following that may be interpreted to mean that he was including those meats that God declared unclean: Quote Mar 7:18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, [it] cannot defile him;
Mar 7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?It may, then, not be a sin to eat an unclean food because it passes into the body and out, but still it would make sense that God's laws regarding a person's diet were established for his own health and well being.
So, tell me why Jesus says all foods are clean and why this is not going against the dietary laws of the Torah? Was Moses wrong about divorce AND the dietary laws?
Hi KJ:Of course, God is right, and he is the judge both of what Jesus did and also of what you and I do.
I ask Him in prayer every morning to correct me if I am doing anything that is not His will or teaching anything that is not His Word. How about you?
Hi Stu:
I believe I only need to answer you in the following statement:
You say;
Quote Quote
The scripture states that “the wages of sin is death”. Death means spiritual separation from God.That is my goal. Separation from the brute. Of course he doesn’t exist, so my goal is to dissuade those who think there is a god from trying to run my life.
God has given you a “free will” and so if your goal is to be separated from Him you will certainly accomplish your goal. I for one am not trying to run your life. I have just answered your questions. This is a Christian web-site. If you are happy with what you believe, why do you keep asking questions about what I believe?
Like I said, I am not in darkness groping around trying to find out whether of not God exists. I know that He does, and you will certainly find this out one way or the other.
Have a good day.
Quote (942767 @ Sep. 06 2008,12:20) Hi KJ: Of course, God is right, and he is the judge both of what Jesus did and also of what you and I do.
I ask Him in prayer every morning to correct me if I am doing anything that is not His will or teaching anything that is not His Word. How about you?
You avoided answering the question, at least to an extent. Why did Jesus say all foods were clean when the Torah points out many are unclean?I don't worry about the teaching the bible anymore, so no, I don't ask Yahweh to keep me straight
.Quote (942767 @ Sep. 06 2008,12:48) God has given you a “free will” and so if your goal is to be separated from Him you will certainly accomplish your goal.
I have asked others this: how can you have free will if your god is omniscient? There are several passages in the bible that also deny free will.Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 07 2008,06:50) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 06 2008,12:20) Hi KJ: Of course, God is right, and he is the judge both of what Jesus did and also of what you and I do.
I ask Him in prayer every morning to correct me if I am doing anything that is not His will or teaching anything that is not His Word. How about you?
You avoided answering the question, at least to an extent. Why did Jesus say all foods were clean when the Torah points out many are unclean?I don't worry about the teaching the bible anymore, so no, I don't ask Yahweh to keep me straight
.
Hi KJ:I answered your questions. And as I said, God is the judge of what Jesus has said and done, and also, of what you and I have said and done.
Quote (942767 @ Sep. 06 2008,13:58) Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 07 2008,06:50) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 06 2008,12:20) Hi KJ: Of course, God is right, and he is the judge both of what Jesus did and also of what you and I do.
I ask Him in prayer every morning to correct me if I am doing anything that is not His will or teaching anything that is not His Word. How about you?
You avoided answering the question, at least to an extent. Why did Jesus say all foods were clean when the Torah points out many are unclean?I don't worry about the teaching the bible anymore, so no, I don't ask Yahweh to keep me straight
.
Hi KJ:I answered your questions. And as I said, God is the judge of what Jesus has said and done, and also, of what you and I have said and done.
If Yahweh makes some foods unclean, and Jesus refutes him, how is that not sin then?Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 07 2008,07:29) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 06 2008,13:58) Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 07 2008,06:50) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 06 2008,12:20) Hi KJ: Of course, God is right, and he is the judge both of what Jesus did and also of what you and I do.
I ask Him in prayer every morning to correct me if I am doing anything that is not His will or teaching anything that is not His Word. How about you?
You avoided answering the question, at least to an extent. Why did Jesus say all foods were clean when the Torah points out many are unclean?I don't worry about the teaching the bible anymore, so no, I don't ask Yahweh to keep me straight
.
Hi KJ:I answered your questions. And as I said, God is the judge of what Jesus has said and done, and also, of what you and I have said and done.
If Yahweh makes some foods unclean, and Jesus refutes him, how is that not sin then?
KJ:I already answered your questions. Just read what I have stated.
Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 07 2008,08:11) You really didn't, but at least I understand why.
Jesus did not say anything about giving anyone permission to eat unclean foods. He was answering the Pharisees relative to their question about eating with unclean hands.He said that something that goes into the stomach does not defile a man because it passes out of the body into the sewer.
Sin is a spiritual matter. When someone commits a sin that comes out of his heart, and it defiles him because it is there until God forgives the sin.
He did not mention unclean foods at all.
Mark 7:19
(Apostles) because it does not enter into his heart but into the stomach, and passes into the latrine, thus purifying all foods?”
(CEV) It doesn't go into your heart, but into your stomach, and then out of your body.” By saying this, Jesus meant that all foods were fit to eat.
(CJB) For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and it passes out into the latrine.” (Thus he declared all foods ritually clean.)
(ESV) since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?” (Thus he declared all foods clean.)
(ISV) For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and is expelled as waste.” (Thus he declared all foods clean.)
(NASB) because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?” (Thus He declared all foods clean.)
(NIV) For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods “clean.”)
(NLT) Food doesn't come in contact with your heart, but only passes through the stomach and then comes out again.” (By saying this, he showed that every kind of food is acceptable.)
(NWT) since it passes, not into [his] heart, but into [his] intestines, and it passes out into the sewer?” Thus he declared all foods clean.
Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 07 2008,08:52) Mark 7:19 (Apostles) because it does not enter into his heart but into the stomach, and passes into the latrine, thus purifying all foods?”
(CEV) It doesn't go into your heart, but into your stomach, and then out of your body.” By saying this, Jesus meant that all foods were fit to eat.
(CJB) For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and it passes out into the latrine.” (Thus he declared all foods ritually clean.)
(ESV) since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?” (Thus he declared all foods clean.)
(ISV) For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and is expelled as waste.” (Thus he declared all foods clean.)
(NASB) because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?” (Thus He declared all foods clean.)
(NIV) For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods “clean.”)
(NLT) Food doesn't come in contact with your heart, but only passes through the stomach and then comes out again.” (By saying this, he showed that every kind of food is acceptable.)
(NWT) since it passes, not into [his] heart, but into [his] intestines, and it passes out into the sewer?” Thus he declared all foods clean.
Notice most of these statements saying that he declared all foods clean are in parenthesis which means that someone added this.Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 07 2008,09:04) Proof?
Just as I told you when you said David should have never been King, why don't you tell God that Jesus committed sin and that He should have never been raised from the dead, and maybe He will undo everything He did because you said so.I have the all the proof that I need.
Quote (942767 @ Sep. 06 2008,16:22) Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 07 2008,09:04) Proof?
Just as I told you when you said David should have never been King, why don't you tell God that Jesus committed sin and that He should have never been raised from the dead, and maybe He will undo everything He did because you said so.I have the all the proof that I need.
I can only go by the bible. If the Torah says some foods are unclean, then Jesus saying they are clean goes against the Torah. That tells me that either the Torah is wrong or Jesus is wrong. If Jesus is wrong, he has sinned. If the Torah is wrong, then the bible is suspect, and that also puts Yahweh (and Jesus) in doubt.As to David, the Torah says no Moabite can be part of Israel. hat would certainly include the king of Israel! So, either the Torah is wrong, or whoever wrote about David is wrong. Again, this puts Yahweh in doubt.
You say “tell God” but I can't. God does not communicate with people anymore no matter what you claim. At least not like he did in the days the bible was recorded. Thus, all I have left is “God's people”. Guess what? They have no answers either. You are a perfect example of that.
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