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Quote (t8 @ Sep. 06 2008,00:16) His taunts or arguments have no bearing on my faith whatsoever, just as your don't. In fact I think that your presence here is good because it gives an opportunity to show how futile it is to argue that there is no God for the benefit of others who read here, and as for KJ, he represents a sector of the human race too, by which we have the opportunity to answer questions that are valid for them.
You confirm kejonn's point then. Your faith is immune to argument and therefore uselessly blind, deaf, mute and insensitive to reality.Stuart
T8,
I agree I've known many Christians who have drifted away, but their attitude is nothing like those who have made a decision to reject their faith. I've personally known a few people who rejected the faith and it becomes their “mission in life” to “rain on everyones parade” (if only Christians had as much zeal). It would seem to me that having rejected the faith, they would avoid those of faith, but it is as though they require everyone to be as miserable as they are (while of course they claim to be “free” and “happier then ever”). You definitely know the tree by it's fruit, I guess in some ways it does show there is more going on then just a rejection of an idea, thus lending credence to the substance of faith.Wm
Quote (seekingtruth @ Sep. 05 2008,11:50) T8,
I agree I've known many Christians who have drifted away, but their attitude is nothing like those who have made a decision to reject their faith. I've personally known a few people who rejected the faith and it becomes their “mission in life” to “rain on everyones parade” (if only Christians had as much zeal). It would seem to me that having rejected the faith, they would avoid those of faith, but it is as though they require everyone to be as miserable as they are (while of course they claim to be “free” and “happier then ever”). You definitely know the tree by it's fruit, I guess in some ways it does show there is more going on then just a rejection of an idea, thus lending credence to the substance of faith.Wm
I know it helps Christians to have this false view of all people who deconvert from Christianity, but please, take a moment to realize that you might just be wrong. As I informed Mandy in another thread, part of the reason I might seem so “negative” is that it is a type of therapy for me in my quest to shed Abrahamic thinking. It is a tough task after 20 years of indoctrination.But I wonder if you have ever considered that many Christians are “negative” towards the rest of humanity. The only positives I see from “strong” Christians to the rest of their fellow man is the desire to convert them. When that fails, they want nothing to do with the “heathens”. A good example of this was Martin Luther. He started with a great desire to convert the Jews around him. When he failed, he became bitter towards them and proceeded to dehumanize them in his writings.
Let me ask you this: if you feel like you have been misled, wouldn't you see justice in informing others that they are being misled as well? For instance, if you were scammed out of some money by a local scam artist, wouldn't you feel obligated to tell others around you so they would not prey to the same?
In that essence, former Christians likely feel that they are doing you a service by sharing their experiences. Perhaps they don't want you to waste any more time than you already have. It really is no different than you trying to lead others to Christ because you are just sharing your beliefs. In the end, it is up to the individual to decide what they will accept.
Quote (Stu @ Sep. 02 2008,19:19) Hi 90210 “God's Spirit within me testifies” is what insane killers tell the trial jury. I think this 'testimony' is the last grasp plea of someone whose argument does not hve a leg to stand on.
Stuart
Hi Stu:The scripture states that “the wages of sin is death”. Death means spiritual separation from God.
Before my conversion experience I was in the world practicing sin and was spiritually separated from God because of my sin. I did not know that God existed and I did not have a personal relationship with Him.
If Jesus had sinned, he would not have been raised again from the dead because “the wages of sin is death”. But because he did not sin God raised him from dead. God declared him not guilty.
Quote Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rom 1:4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:It is because He did not sin that I could be forgiven my sins, because it is his blood that washes away my sins, and raised from the dead or spiritual separation from God. By virtue of this I am not in darkness relative to whether or not there is a God. I have a personal relationship with Him.
When I had my conversion experience, God's Spirit dwells within me as my helper to lead me to all truths in His Word. God's Spirit testifies to the truth regarding His Son Jesus.
You probably will not understand any of this, but I thought I would at least try to give you an explanation for my statement that “God's Spirit within me testifies to the fact that Jesus did not sin”.
There is the following scripture which also may help.
Quote 1Jo 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
1Jo 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
1Jo 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.Quote (TimothyVI @ Sep. 05 2008,10:54) Quote (Tiffany @ Sep. 05 2008,08:56) kejonn Denying Christ is a hard thing to do. Hebrew 6:4 For it is impossible for those that were once enlihtened, and have tasted the
Heavenly gift and have become partaker of the Holy Spirit.
verse 5 and have tasted the good word of God and powers of this age to come
verse 6 If they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for
Themselves the Son of God and put Him to an open shame.
Peace and Love Irene
HI Irene,First and foremost, Heb 6:4-6 can not mean that you lose salvation
If it does then there is no place for the prodical son in the bible. The prodical son is all about God forgiving our falling away and accepting us back.
Jesus also said that we should forgive 70 X 7. Would he do less?There will be those who fall away or get side tracked as all of us do, but remember the promise of God, “that He who began the good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.” (Philippians 1:6)
For those who do fall down and get caught in sins they cannot lose their salvation and regain it again, for that would mean Jesus would then have to die again which contradicts the Scriptures entirely
Tim
Hi Tim:If someone falls away and continues to practice sin wilfully without repenting, there is no more sacrifice for sin.
Quote Hbr 10:26 ¶ For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Hbr 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Hbr 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Hbr 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Hbr 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Hbr 10:31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living GodGod will forgive someone who has fallen away if they repent just as he forgave the prodigal son. It is not his will that any man should perish but that all may come to repentance so that he will not have to destroy them.
God Bless
Hi KJ:
Already have shown that Jesus did not violate the Sabbath as you accuse him, and you say:
Quote He speaks out against dietary laws Please show me what he says about the dietary laws.
Thanks
Quote (942767 @ Sep. 05 2008,18:40) Hi KJ: Already have shown that Jesus did not violate the Sabbath as you accuse him, and you say:
Quote He speaks out against dietary laws Please show me what he says about the dietary laws.
Thanks
Mar 7:15 There is nothing outside a person that by going into him can defile him, but the things that come out of a person are what defile him.”Basically, Jesus is saying here that food (it goes into the body) cannot defile a person.
Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 06 2008,13:28) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 05 2008,18:40) Hi KJ: Already have shown that Jesus did not violate the Sabbath as you accuse him, and you say:
Quote He speaks out against dietary laws Please show me what he says about the dietary laws.
Thanks
Mar 7:15 There is nothing outside a person that by going into him can defile him, but the things that come out of a person are what defile him.”Basically, Jesus is saying here that food (it goes into the body) cannot defile a person.
Hi KJ:He did not say anything about dietary laws. He was answering the Pharisees about the following question:
Quote Mar 7:5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands? Quote (942767 @ Sep. 05 2008,21:11) Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 06 2008,13:28) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 05 2008,18:40) Hi KJ: Already have shown that Jesus did not violate the Sabbath as you accuse him, and you say:
Quote He speaks out against dietary laws Please show me what he says about the dietary laws.
Thanks
Mar 7:15 There is nothing outside a person that by going into him can defile him, but the things that come out of a person are what defile him.”Basically, Jesus is saying here that food (it goes into the body) cannot defile a person.
Hi KJ:He did not say anything about dietary laws. He was answering the Pharisees about the following question:
Quote Mar 7:5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
Yes, but it goes beyond. He said (according to the bible) that NOTHING that goes into the body — including pork and shellfish — defiles a person. It was a very blatant reference to the dietary laws.Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 06 2008,14:33) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 05 2008,21:11) Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 06 2008,13:28) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 05 2008,18:40) Hi KJ: Already have shown that Jesus did not violate the Sabbath as you accuse him, and you say:
Quote He speaks out against dietary laws Please show me what he says about the dietary laws.
Thanks
Mar 7:15 There is nothing outside a person that by going into him can defile him, but the things that come out of a person are what defile him.”Basically, Jesus is saying here that food (it goes into the body) cannot defile a person.
Hi KJ:He did not say anything about dietary laws. He was answering the Pharisees about the following question:
Quote Mar 7:5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
Yes, but it goes beyond. He said (according to the bible) that NOTHING that goes into the body — including pork and shellfish — defiles a person. It was a very blatant reference to the dietary laws.
Hi KJ:No, you are adding to his words. He said if you eat food without washing your hands it will not defile you. He did not say anything about eating pork or anything about the dietary laws.
Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 06 2008,14:33) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 05 2008,21:11) Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 06 2008,13:28) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 05 2008,18:40) Hi KJ: Already have shown that Jesus did not violate the Sabbath as you accuse him, and you say:
Quote He speaks out against dietary laws Please show me what he says about the dietary laws.
Thanks
Mar 7:15 There is nothing outside a person that by going into him can defile him, but the things that come out of a person are what defile him.”Basically, Jesus is saying here that food (it goes into the body) cannot defile a person.
Hi KJ:He did not say anything about dietary laws. He was answering the Pharisees about the following question:
Quote Mar 7:5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
Yes, but it goes beyond. He said (according to the bible) that NOTHING that goes into the body — including pork and shellfish — defiles a person. It was a very blatant reference to the dietary laws.
Hi KJ:To be perfectly honest, I and others have also thought that is what he said, but no, he did not say any thing about the dietary laws. I do not eat pork myself.
Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 06 2008,01:45) Quote (seekingtruth @ Sep. 05 2008,11:50) T8,
I agree I've known many Christians who have drifted away, but their attitude is nothing like those who have made a decision to reject their faith. I've personally known a few people who rejected the faith and it becomes their “mission in life” to “rain on everyones parade” (if only Christians had as much zeal). It would seem to me that having rejected the faith, they would avoid those of faith, but it is as though they require everyone to be as miserable as they are (while of course they claim to be “free” and “happier then ever”). You definitely know the tree by it's fruit, I guess in some ways it does show there is more going on then just a rejection of an idea, thus lending credence to the substance of faith.Wm
I know it helps Christians to have this false view of all people who deconvert from Christianity, but please, take a moment to realize that you might just be wrong. As I informed Mandy in another thread, part of the reason I might seem so “negative” is that it is a type of therapy for me in my quest to shed Abrahamic thinking. It is a tough task after 20 years of indoctrination.You are correct I could be wrong but so could you. You're therapy is not extolling the “benefits” of your “belief” but instead you spend all your time (on a Christian website) trashing our beliefs and ridiculing those who defend them.
Quote
But I wonder if you have ever considered that many Christians are “negative” towards the rest of humanity.Yes some are, but I don't believe either of us has enough data to support or dispute such a broad statement
Quote
The only positives I see from “strong” Christians to the rest of their fellow man is the desire to convert them. When that fails, they want nothing to do with the “heathens”. A good example of this was Martin Luther. He started with a great desire to convert the Jews around him. When he failed, he became bitter towards them and proceeded to dehumanize them in his writings.Let me ask you this: if you feel like you have been misled, wouldn't you see justice in informing others that they are being misled as well? For instance, if you were scammed out of some money by a local scam artist, wouldn't you feel obligated to tell others around you so they would not prey to the same?
Mislead implies a purposeful deception while there are some who promote it without belief, most of the ones I know hold it as a sincere belief of truth As to how some may treat non-converts we will all answer for the things done in this life.
You say your just “warning” others so they will not be “scammed”, once again implying purposeful deception What you do make clear is your contempt for those who dis-agree with your opinion
Quote
In that essence, former Christians likely feel that they are doing you a service by sharing their experiences. Perhaps they don't want you to waste any more time than you already have. It really is no different than you trying to lead others to Christ because you are just sharing your beliefs. In the end, it is up to the individual to decide what they will accept.
True, people do make their own decision but I believe our approach in influencing them is quite different, by my belief, I offer hope, and an escape of judgment (believing this to be true it would be evil of me not to share). By your belief (at least as much as I have read) your only mission is to ridicule scriptures and those who have put trust in the beliefs spelled out in them.My opinion – Wm
Quote (942767 @ Sep. 05 2008,22:00) Hi KJ: To be perfectly honest, I and others have also thought that is what he said, but no, he did not say any thing about the dietary laws. I do not eat pork myself.
If nothing that goes into the body can defile a person, where does that leave the dietary laws?Quote (seekingtruth @ Sep. 05 2008,22:11) Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 06 2008,01:45) Quote (seekingtruth @ Sep. 05 2008,11:50) T8,
I agree I've known many Christians who have drifted away, but their attitude is nothing like those who have made a decision to reject their faith. I've personally known a few people who rejected the faith and it becomes their “mission in life” to “rain on everyones parade” (if only Christians had as much zeal). It would seem to me that having rejected the faith, they would avoid those of faith, but it is as though they require everyone to be as miserable as they are (while of course they claim to be “free” and “happier then ever”). You definitely know the tree by it's fruit, I guess in some ways it does show there is more going on then just a rejection of an idea, thus lending credence to the substance of faith.Wm
I know it helps Christians to have this false view of all people who deconvert from Christianity, but please, take a moment to realize that you might just be wrong. As I informed Mandy in another thread, part of the reason I might seem so “negative” is that it is a type of therapy for me in my quest to shed Abrahamic thinking. It is a tough task after 20 years of indoctrination.You are correct I could be wrong but so could you. You're therapy is not extolling the “benefits” of your “belief” but instead you spend all your time (on a Christian website) trashing our beliefs and ridiculing those who defend them.
FAIL. I spend much less time here than I do on other sites. I spend even much more less time on other sites than I do with family and friends.
I am truly sorry you cannot differentiate criticism of the bible with “trashing your beliefs”. Perhaps your beliefs have little in common with reality.
Quote Quote
But I wonder if you have ever considered that many Christians are “negative” towards the rest of humanity.Yes some are, but I don't believe either of us has enough data to support or dispute such a broad statement
I have personal experience. Does that count for nothing?
Quote Quote
The only positives I see from “strong” Christians to the rest of their fellow man is the desire to convert them. When that fails, they want nothing to do with the “heathens”. A good example of this was Martin Luther. He started with a great desire to convert the Jews around him. When he failed, he became bitter towards them and proceeded to dehumanize them in his writings.Let me ask you this: if you feel like you have been misled, wouldn't you see justice in informing others that they are being misled as well? For instance, if you were scammed out of some money by a local scam artist, wouldn't you feel obligated to tell others around you so they would not prey to the same?
Mislead implies a purposeful deception while there are some who promote it without belief, most of the ones I know hold it as a sincere belief of truth As to how some may treat non-converts we will all answer for the things done in this life.
You say your just “warning” others so they will not be “scammed”, once again implying purposeful deception What you do make clear is your contempt for those who dis-agree with your opinion
Quote
In that essence, former Christians likely feel that they are doing you a service by sharing their experiences. Perhaps they don't want you to waste any more time than you already have. It really is no different than you trying to lead others to Christ because you are just sharing your beliefs. In the end, it is up to the individual to decide what they will accept.
True, people do make their own decision but I believe our approach in influencing them is quite different, by my belief, I offer hope, and an escape of judgment (believing this to be true it would be evil of me not to share). By your belief (at least as much as I have read) your only mission is to ridicule scriptures and those who have put trust in the beliefs spelled out in them.My opinion – Wm
Yes your opinion…and wrong, to an extent. I indeed ridicule the Christian bible. It has less in common with peer reviewed science and more in common with prior mythologies. If you disbelieve in Zeus, why do you choose to believe in Yahweh?Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 06 2008,15:19) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 05 2008,22:00) Hi KJ: To be perfectly honest, I and others have also thought that is what he said, but no, he did not say any thing about the dietary laws. I do not eat pork myself.
If nothing that goes into the body can defile a person, where does that leave the dietary laws?
Hi KJ:He said those things that defile a man come from within his heart, and that is a spiritual matter.
Dietary laws that have been instituted by God are laws that apply to the health of the human body. It would not be good to make a steady diet of pork because it would probably lead to high blood pressure, for example.
He did say the following that may be interpreted to mean that he was including those meats that God declared unclean:
Quote Mar 7:18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, [it] cannot defile him;
Mar 7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?It may, then, not be a sin to eat an unclean food because it passes into the body and out, but still it would make sense that God's laws regarding a person's diet were established for his own health and well being.
Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 06 2008,15:28) I am truly sorry you cannot differentiate criticism of the bible with “trashing your beliefs”. Perhaps your beliefs have little in common with reality.
Do you realize people have given their lives to defend the bible from criticism?Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 06 2008,17:16) Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 06 2008,15:28) I am truly sorry you cannot differentiate criticism of the bible with “trashing your beliefs”. Perhaps your beliefs have little in common with reality.
Do you realize people have given their lives to defend the bible from criticism?
This is true Kejonn, something to keep close in mind and heart!I do believe any mind control that shall be brought down, will feel like one is being slaughtered and destroyed for the moment, but soon after they become thankful for the on slaught?
1Cr 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away.
Jer 51:46 And lest your heart faint, and ye fear for the rumour that shall be heard in the land; a rumour shall both come [one] year, and after that in [another] year [shall come] a rumour, and violence in the land, ruler against ruler.
no doubt we understand suffering came first before freedom
Well KJ, you are free of course to argue against peoples faith and call it myth etc. You are also free to reject YHWH. At least I cannot be accused of not trying to help you. At the end of the day, your will is yours and I respect that. Still I think there is an important lesson here for those of faith and that is when you reject the son, you reject all his works too, and that of course includes those whom he has worked through.
Of course we look forward to life eternal and the Kingdom of God. No one can rob us of our great hope.
Quote (Stu @ Sep. 06 2008,01:23) You confirm kejonn's point then. Your faith is immune to argument and therefore uselessly blind, deaf, mute and insensitive to reality. Stuart
I use to be an atheist and still understand all the arguments for it. It's just that no atheist has offered anything new and if I changed from not believing to believing and then you offer no new information, then what chance will you have of convincing me that there is no God? Probably no chance.Of course the absurdity of a singularity coming from nothing and expanding on its own an producing life, galaxies, stars, and planets is just so funny when you think about it, that it is actually hard to take it seriously.
Stu, I am very open to what people say. But what they say has to have substance and I also respond positively to those who are honest about questions that are asked of them. Your silence on giving a good explanation as to how something comes from nothing is quite deafening.
In addition to that, I have had amazing experiences in God, that if I told you some of the things that have happened to me, I am sure that you wouldn't believe my words. In other words your weak argument cannot overcome my strong experiences from God and that is what it boils down to for me.
Hi 90210
Quote The scripture states that “the wages of sin is death”. Death means spiritual separation from God.
That is my goal. Separation from the brute. Of course he doesn’t exist, so my goal is to dissuade those who think there is a god from trying to run my life.Quote Before my conversion experience I was in the world practicing sin and was spiritually separated from God because of my sin. I did not know that God existed and I did not have a personal relationship with Him.
No you were not practicing sin. Sin is a religious concept, so if you were not religious when you were behaving this way then you can only see it as such in hindsight. You life must be a very schizophrenic sort of thing if you think in this unfortunate way.Quote If Jesus had sinned, he would not have been raised again from the dead because “the wages of sin is death”. But because he did not sin God raised him from dead. God declared him not guilty.
…and then had him judicially executed. What a brilliant logician this god is.Quote It is because He did not sin that I could be forgiven my sins, because it is his blood that washes away my sins, and raised from the dead or spiritual separation from God. By virtue of this I am not in darkness relative to whether or not there is a God.
You certainly are in darkness and I have shared my opinion before on those who require the death of another human in order to live a good life. Sounds very much like the warped ‘god told me to do it’ argument that I mentioned earlier.Quote I have a personal relationship with Him.
That’s very funny. You have a relationship with an imaginary friend. How did you not grow out of this as an adolescent?Quote When I had my conversion experience, God's Spirit dwells within me as my helper to lead me to all truths in His Word. God's Spirit testifies to the truth regarding His Son Jesus.
Words words words. None of them mean anything. God’s splong resonates in my umlaut. I have the full brong of god’s majestic squellings. Your inability to explain your experience stems from your inability to understand it.Quote You probably will not understand any of this, but I thought I would at least try to give you an explanation for my statement that “God's Spirit within me testifies to the fact that Jesus did not sin”.
It is all hot air. It would not stand up in court. It has no forensic science behind it. What value does it have except to your imagination?Quote There is the following scripture which also may help.
(It didn’t. It is just more of the same lame circular logic that christians think constitutes a sound argument.)Stuart
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