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I have given you Deut 6:4 which in your obtuseness or spiritual blindness or both you continue to ignore. You also ignored the 'I am's'
If God is one then the Jews are saved for through your doctrine, youand them worship the same god. I have proven through scripture that God is a plurality not a singular.
If He was created then He just becomes another part of the creation and no better than us.
Outer darkness awaits you unless you repent
Quote (yes2truth @ Oct. 28 2005,18:14) I have given you Deut 6:4 which in your obtuseness or spiritual blindness or both you continue to ignore. You also ignored the 'I am's' If God is one then the Jews are saved for through your doctrine, youand them worship the same god. I have proven through scripture that God is a plurality not a singular.
If He was created then He just becomes another part of the creation and no better than us.
Outer darkness awaits you unless you repent
Hi y2t,Scripture does not say the Son of God was created but begotten. He is the monogenes, the unique, firstborn Son who was with God in the beginning and all creation came through him. He is called “the beginning of the creation of God” in Rev 3.14. He is also man as shown in many places such as ACTS 2.23.
The prodigal son parable in Lk 15.13f shows two sons. The younger wasted all his inheritance and idi not deserve to be taken back into the family but was. He represents all men except those saved under the Old Covenant.
The older son represents those Jews who were promised an inheritance under the Law and reassured by the Father they would inherit in the parable.
He said
” Look!For all these years I have been serving you and have never neglected a command of yours;and yet you have never even given me a young goat, so that I might celebrate with my friends; but when this son of yours came, who has devoured your wealth with prostitutes, you killed the fattened calf for him.
And he said to him
'Son. You have always been with me, and all that is mine is yours. But we had to celebrate and rejoice , for this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found'”We were never under the Law and could not inherit the kingdom by right. God is faithful to His promises to them though. However as jews and gentiles we all can turn back to God and walk towards Him, and meet Him on the way home.
We can repent, believe and be baptised into the Son who did fulfill the Law perfectly. All can come back as a sinner, the prodigal sinner and gain undeserved salvation. We can be wrapped in the glorious robe of the Son of God and receive the ring of power and authority in him.
The Son of God was a pure vessel, which was filled with the Spirit of the One God. We can follow him.
Quote (yes2truth @ Oct. 28 2005,18:14) I have given you Deut 6:4 which in your obtuseness or spiritual blindness or both you continue to ignore. You also ignored the 'I am's' If God is one then the Jews are saved for through your doctrine, youand them worship the same god. I have proven through scripture that God is a plurality not a singular.
If He was created then He just becomes another part of the creation and no better than us.
Outer darkness awaits you unless you repent
Hi,
When Jesus says “I am” for example “before Abraham” he is stating in another that he is the Word of God who was with God in the Beginning. That is true. He was before Abraham and before all creation and before time. He is the image of God. However no image reflects all aspects of the original which it reflects does it? A mirror only shows two dimensions and not three. The Moon only shows a portion of the power and light which it reflects from the Sun to us.But that makes no statement such that he WAS the God he was WITH in the beginning does it? Neither does it say he was an equal second God. God is one. Jesus said the Father was his God so no equality there. Scripture says he did not have equality, could have sought to grab it but did not.[Phil2.5-6]
Christ also contained the Spirit of the Father such that he spoke as “we”. They were in as complete unity as any two beings can have.
We do worship the same God as the Jews. He told the Pharisees that their father was Satan. He also said that the Father was the one the Jews called their God.
Your analogies don't stack up and you are still ignoring the FACT that Elohim is plural. I will repeat it for you again. The singular of Elohim is Eloah. If God is one then Eloah would have been used, but it was was not.
THEY said let US make man in OUR image. Genesis 1:26 They were two who have always existed and The Holy Spirit is their essence and their power, but the Holy Spirit is not a personage that makes up a trinity
So then by your reasoning The Jews are saved as are Islamics for they all believe in your singular god.
I will tell you straight, that I do not worship the same God as the Jews for their god is the god of this world which is your god too.
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Jesus Christ is The Word who was God who became flesh.
Jesus Christ is The Word
Jesus Christ is The Way
Jesus Christ is The Light – The light that shone in the darkness – Genesis 1:3 And God (ELOHIM) said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Jesus Christ is The I am
Jesus Christ is The Life and Resurrection
Jesus Christ is Mighty God – Isaiah 9:6
He was worshipped by the angels at The Father's instructions Heb 1:6 Only God is to be worshipped.Your doctrine is totally flawed and your teaching on the prodigal son utter nonesense.
Quote (beenblake @ Oct. 28 2005,02:49) There is one God. Either Jesus is God, or Jesus is not God. If Jesus is not God, then Jesus has no power. He is nothing. He cannot save anyone. Only God can forgive sins. Only God can redeem people. However, if Jesus is God, then He can forgive sins. He can save people.
Dear beenblake,Now, let me ask you, can you seperate your word from you? No. You and your word are the same person. Your word is you. You are your word.
No I can't! But I can't speak things into existence either! But God can! And one day I might!!!
Aren't you limiting God by denying He could created another God.
Even your fleshly father created you. Is not the creator greater than the creation.
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods?
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken),
Joh 10:36 say ye of him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
“…..because I said, I am the Son of God?” What did Jesus say? What did He say about God's fleshly children?What is man that he is created a little lower than the angles?
1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
Why will we judge angles and not angles judge angles?
Because WE ARE CHILDREN OF GOD and Jesus said that we are gods even while in the flesh, so think of what potential we have when we will be as Jesus is today.Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.…conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
…image of his Son,…firstborn among many brethren.
We are the image of God's Son and are His brethern. Does that make us Gods?
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Here's a curve: Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
I AND my Father are ONE.ONE IN SPIRIT!
Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
According to the religious doctrine Jesus is praying to Himself.
No! Then who?
Shed that cloud of religious modern day pharisee false doctrine and listen to what Jesus is saying.
Only the truth will clear everything. The only truth you have is THEIR truth which is a lie and the father of lies is Satan. Or don't you know that Satan joined the church?Peace my brother!
Quote (yes2truth @ Oct. 28 2005,22:42) Your analogies don't stack up and you are still ignoring the FACT that Elohim is plural. I will repeat it for you again. The singular of Elohim is Eloah. If God is one then Eloah would have been used, but it was was not. THEY said let US make man in OUR image. Genesis 1:26 They were two who have always existed and The Holy Spirit is their essence and their power, but the Holy Spirit is not a personage that makes up a trinity
So then by your reasoning The Jews are saved as are Islamics for they all believe in your singular god.
I will tell you straight, that I do not worship the same God as the Jews for their god is the god of this world which is your god too.
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Jesus Christ is The Word who was God who became flesh.
Jesus Christ is The Word
Jesus Christ is The Way
Jesus Christ is The Light – The light that shone in the darkness – Genesis 1:3 And God (ELOHIM) said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Jesus Christ is The I am
Jesus Christ is The Life and Resurrection
Jesus Christ is Mighty God – Isaiah 9:6
He was worshipped by the angels at The Father's instructions Heb 1:6 Only God is to be worshipped.Your doctrine is totally flawed and your teaching on the prodigal son utter nonesense.
Hi y2t,
God is one.
Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
You presume the Word always existed and state it as fact but scripture does not state that. He is from the beginning. He is from everlasting. But he issued from God as his only begotten Son.
If you do not worship the God of the Jews then I do not know whom you worship but it is not the creator God and Father and God of Jesus Christ..
Jn 8.45
” Jesus answered
'If I glorify myself my glory is nothing; it is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say
'He is our God' “'If I glorify myself my glory is nothing; it is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say
'He is our God' ”He only said these words because He had lowered Himself to become a man. He had given up His equality with God to become a man.
I'm afraid you are nothing but a blaspheming Judaiser and I am now dusting off my shoes 'Woe to you Chorazin'
What is the meaning of John 5:18?
John 5:18, RS: “This was why the Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal with God.”
It was the unbelieving Jews who reasoned that Jesus was attempting to make himself equal with God by claiming God as his Father.
While properly referring to God as his Father, Jesus never claimed equality with God.
He straightforwardly answered the Jews: “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing.” (John 5:19, RS; see also John 14:28; John 10:36.)
It was those unbelieving Jews, too, who claimed that Jesus broke the Sabbath, but they were wrong also about that.
Jesus kept the Law perfectly, and he declared: “It is lawful to do good on the sabbath.”—Matt. 12:10-12, RS.Taking sides with the pharisees on this will not help you prove anything.
Quote The Pharisees accused Jesus of blasphemy which means to claim that you are God.
Checking ANY dictionary at all will tell you that it actually means to disrespect God or sacred things.Quote Only God is good. Even Jesus said this. Only God is good. This is important.
Right, and when someone called Jesus “Good Teacher,” Jesus said:
“Why do you call me good? Nobody is good, except one, God.” (Mark 10:17,18)
If Jesus were God Almighty, this statement would have done no good except to mislead. Clearly, Jesus differentiated between himself and God in this scripture.Quote If Jesus is perfect and good, then He must be God, for only God is good. However, if Jesus was not, then He could not be the sacrificial lamb. He could not die for your sins.
Jesus humbly made a point to direct attention to his Father when someone called Jesus Good Teacher. But this doesn't mean Jesus wasn't good, for in scripture, many many times men are even called good. The expression “good men” for example occurs 7 times. (Prov 14:14, Mat 12:35, etc.)
So being “good,” does not make one God. Jesus was perfect, without sin. Neither does this make him God Almighty. He was not born from Adam. We are sinful because we are born into sin, under Adam. This is what Scripture says.
Beenblake, you once said you don't want to have a logical debate. It's very clear why. You wouldn't fair well. You seem unable to use “facts” to back up your ideas. Logic is the use of facts, rather than emotion. I see no scriptural evidence of anything you say.Quote You are right in saying there is one God. Jesus Christ is the one and only God.
Is that what Jesus said? Or rather, did he say:
“This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.” (John 17:3)
Again, here, we are told about the one and “only true God,” and then a differentiation is made between him and the one he “sent forth,” Jesus Christ.david.
The Hebrew word ´elo·him´ (gods) appears to be from a root meaning “be strong.” ´Elo·him´ is the plural of ´eloh´ah (god). Sometimes this plural refers to a number of gods (Ge 31:30, 32; 35:2), but more often it is used as a plural of majesty, dignity, or excellence. ´Elo·him´ is used in the Scriptures with reference to Jehovah himself, to angels, to idol gods (singular and plural), and to men.
When applying to Jehovah, ´Elo·him´ is used as a plural of majesty, dignity, or excellence. (Ge 1:1) Regarding this, Aaron Ember wrote: “That the language of the O[ld] T[estament] has entirely given up the idea of plurality in . . . [´Elo·him´] (as applied to the God of Israel) is especially shown by the fact that it is almost invariably construed with a singular verbal predicate, and takes a singular adjectival attribute. . . . [´Elo·him´] must rather be explained as an intensive plural, denoting greatness and majesty, being equal to The Great God.”—The American Journal of Semitic Languages and Literatures, Vol. XXI, 1905, p. 208.
The title ´Elo·him´ draws attention to Jehovah’s strength as the Creator. It appears 35 times by itself in the account of creation, and every time the verb describing what he said and did is in the singular number. (Ge 1:1–2:4) In him resides the sum and substance of infinite forces.
At Psalm 8:5, the angels are also referred to as ´elo·him´, as is confirmed by Paul’s quotation of the passage at Hebrews 2:6-8. They are called beneh´ ha·´Elo·him´, “sons of God” (KJ); “sons of the true God” (NW), at Genesis 6:2, 4; Job 1:6; 2:1. Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros, by Koehler and Baumgartner (1958), page 134, says: “(individual) divine beings, gods.” And page 51 says: “the (single) gods,” and it cites Genesis 6:2; Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7. Hence, at Psalm 8:5 ´elo·him´ is rendered “angels” (LXX); “godlike ones” (NW).
The word ´elo·him´ is also used when referring to idol gods. Sometimes this plural form means simply “gods.” (Ex 12:12; 20:23) At other times it is the plural of excellence and only one god (or goddess) is referred to. HOWEVER, THESE GODS WERE CLEARLY NOT TRINITIES.—1Sa 5:7b (Dagon); 1Ki 11:5 (“goddess” Ashtoreth); Da 1:2b (Marduk).
At Psalm 82:1, 6, ´elo·him´ is used of men, human judges in Israel. Jesus quoted from this Psalm at John 10:34, 35. They were gods in their capacity as representatives of and spokesmen for Jehovah. Similarly Moses was told that he was to serve as “God” to Aaron and to Pharaoh.—Ex 4:16, ftn; 7:1.
In many places in the Scriptures ´Elo·him´ is also found preceded by the definite article ha. (Ge 5:22) Concerning the use of ha·´Elo·him´, F. Zorell says: “In the Holy Scriptures especially the one true God, Jahve, is designated by this word; . . . ‘Jahve is the [one true] God’ De 4:35; 4:39; Jos 22:34; 2Sa 7:28; 1Ki 8:60 etc.”—Lexicon Hebraicum Veteris Testamenti, Rome, 1984, p. 54; brackets his.
If Jehovah God sends his son to the earth and tell people to follow him and some reject him, they are also rejecting the one who sent him, Jehovah himself. So how are the Jews and Islamics saved, simply because they believe in one God? If God sends his son and his son is rejected, they have in effect rejected God as well.
yes2truth said:
“You are still ignoring the fact that Elohim is plural.”Yes2truth, you seem TO IGNORE that this word is used in the same way for individual pagan divinities, such as DAGON (1 Samuel 5:7) and MARDUK (Daniel 1:2), WHO WERE NOT TRIUNE GODS!
Commenting on this, Oxford scholar R. B. Girdlestone writes in his Synonyms of the Old Testament: “Many critics, however, of unimpeachable [Trinitarian] orthodoxy, think it wiser to rest where such divines as Cajetan [a theologian] in the Church of Rome and Calvin among Protestants were content to stand, and to take the plural form as a plural of majesty.”
Such Trinitarian theologians doubtless realized that if they took ‘Elo·him´ as a numerical plural (gods), they would become polytheists!
Quote (yes2truth @ Oct. 29 2005,12:28) 'If I glorify myself my glory is nothing; it is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say
'He is our God' ”He only said these words because He had lowered Himself to become a man. He had given up His equality with God to become a man.
I'm afraid you are nothing but a blaspheming Judaiser and I am now dusting off my shoes 'Woe to you Chorazin'
Hi y2t,
Did Jesus say that the Jews worshipped Satan? No he said their father was the devil. There is a difference.Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 28 2005,00:58) Hi Nick,
i don't want you to get the idea that I joined the lynch mob but Jesus did have an advantage, He was born without sin and had the Holy Spirit in full. He had to be spotless to pay our debt. He was tempted more than us but like the first Adam he was born without sin.
Hi kenrch,
Does scripture say that Jesus Christ was born in any different state to other men? He was a man,a son of Adam as we are.
Hebrews 2.17
” Therefore he had to be made like his brethren in all things”
Romans 8.3
“For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did; sending His own son IN THE LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH..”
He was the “scapegoat” on whom all the sin of the world was placed and he was killed as a sacrifice for that sin. He was not guilty any more than a scapegoat in scripture is guilty. he was innocent and never sinned but he overcame sin and defeated sin and was killed as an offering for our sin. He was tempted in every way that we are but he never sinned.What it does say about him in 2Cor 5.21 in fact is
” He made Him WHO KNEW NO SIN to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in him”
1Jn 3.5
” You know he appeared in order to take away sin;and in him there is no sin”No we can follow him because he was not born with any supernatural advantages over us.
David, go and purchase some integrity from the well of truth. WE!
Quote Quote
Hi soxan,
I agree that the Word was God with God. He has divine status under God and divine nature. So speaking of the divinity of Christ is he a God separate from the Father to you? Is the Spirit another God? That is what a deity is, a god. So if so are there three Gods you worship? How can you say God is one when you believe in more than one that we should pray to and worship? this is so confusing.
Do you understand anything that you just said? Again your integrety is at issue here not your i.q. however after just readin your statements above i may to take your i.q. into account.This is one of many derogatory attacks or little jabs that you've taken at people. Soxan, read the words below:
1 PETER 3:15
“But sanctify the Christ as Lord in YOUR hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone that demands of YOU a reason for the hope in YOU, but doing so together with a mild temper and deep respect.”I'm not sure where you purchased your integrity, but I would recommend heeding the words above. They are very nice words. They are words everyone in this forum should understand.
david
Hi david,
You have to realise that the orthodox church teaches trinity as a basic tenet. So almost everyone from that background is shocked and amazed that anyone could question it. They fear that their whole building of faith will collapse if they consider taking out that brick. People are very insecure when it comes to questions about the things they are very comfortable about.But the building God builds is based on being reborn into Jesus Christ…and not denominations.
It is built on provable bible truth…and not denominational doctrines.But to do these things is easy.
And it is what God wants us to do.Hey Nick.
Everything I've said to you is from the Bible. I've never said: “This is true because this is what they teach.” Have I? Whenever I show you what I believe, there are always a number of scriptures to back it up.There are no traces of Greek philosphy or pagan beliefs that have been carried down from Babylon in what I believe.
david
Hi david,
It is possible to “prove” almost anything with selected use of verses or bibles. The truth, though, is to be found by taking all verses into account and seeing how they work together. Do you agree?Wished to God that you`d take your own advise Nick. Wished to God that you would.
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