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The skeptic asks, “Who created God if God created the universe?”
God, by definition, is uncreated, so the question, “Who created God?” is illogical. A better question would be, “If the universe needs a cause, then why doesn't God need a cause? And if God doesn't need a cause, why should the universe need one?”
Everything which has a beginning has a cause. If the universe had a beginning; then the universe has a cause. The universe requires a cause if it had a beginning. God, however had no beginning, so he does not need a cause.
Einstein's general relativity shows that time is linked to matter and space. Since God, by definition, is the creator of the whole universe, he is the creator of time and is independent and outside of time. He is not limited by the time dimension he created, so he has no beginning in time.
It is like explaining a finite number and an infinite one. If you quote any whole finite number you will theoretically be able to count backwards to zero one number at a time (if you live long enough). If you quote an infinite whole number, you cannot count back to zero one number at a time. There would never be enough time to count back to zero.
God has no beginning and no end and if you don't believe that this is possible, perhaps because of a lack of results from experiments using finite objects and instruments, then your pre-requisite of such proof will mean that you will never be able to see the infinite God. See as in insight.
In other words by limiting your findings to finite experiments means that you will only ever see finite results.
If we understand the concept of infinite, then why not understand that the cause of all finality is perhaps infinite. If the universe is big, then the cause is even bigger. If the universe is beyond comprehension, then the cause even more so. And if the universe contains life, then shouldn't the cause have life?
For whatever we observe, the cause must have the original qualities, possibilities, or imagination of that which it put in motion.
The atheist closes his eyes to such possibility.
Hi t8,
I agree. I would suggest however, that the term “Most High God” would by definition be uncreated and infinite, without beginning. Not simply “God” be that by definition. I say that because if the One that always was, reproduced, then there would be another one like the first except the reproduced one would have a beginning and the original would not have had a beginning. That is what I understand happened with the Father and the Son. The Most High God begat one like himself. GOD (the Father) begat God (the Son).LU
Quote (t8 @ May 19 2009,23:34) The skeptic asks, “Who created God if God created the universe?” God, by definition, is uncreated, so the question, “Who created God?” is illogical. A better question would be, “If the universe needs a cause, then why doesn't God need a cause? And if God doesn't need a cause, why should the universe need one?”
Everything which has a beginning has a cause. If the universe had a beginning; then the universe has a cause. The universe requires a cause if it had a beginning. God, however had no beginning, so he does not need a cause.
Einstein's general relativity shows that time is linked to matter and space. Since God, by definition, is the creator of the whole universe, he is the creator of time and is independent and outside of time. He is not limited by the time dimension he created, so he has no beginning in time.
It is like explaining a finite number and an infinite one. If you quote any whole finite number you will theoretically be able to count backwards to zero one number at a time (if you live long enough). If you quote an infinite whole number, you cannot count back to zero one number at a time. There would never be enough time to count back to zero.
God has no beginning and no end and if you don't believe that this is possible, perhaps because of a lack of results from experiments using finite objects and instruments, then your pre-requisite of such proof will mean that you will never be able to see the infinite God. See as in insight.
In other words by limiting your findings to finite experiments means that you will only ever see finite results.
If we understand the concept of infinite, then why not understand that the cause of all finality is perhaps infinite. If the universe is big, then the cause is even bigger. If the universe is beyond comprehension, then the cause even more so. And if the universe contains life, then shouldn't the cause have life?
For whatever we observe, the cause must have the original qualities, possibilities, or imagination of that which it put in motion.
The atheist closes his eyes to such possibility.
The origin of God is a mystery beyond comprehension, but we are without excuse if we do not believe that He exists even if we do not have a personal relationship with Him because:Quote Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: And people should see the changed life of those Christians who have been born again and do have a personal relationship with Him.
The world should see the Love of God manifest through the life that we live.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote Everything which has a beginning has a cause.
Wrong. That cannot possibly be true for the start of the universe. We have been over this ad nauseam, still you resuscitate disproved arguments for the benefit of the Choir of Boy Scouts at the Arian Church of Heavennet.How tedious.
Stuart
OK, Stu has faith that the universe has no cause.
What a faith.
You argue as being the only right one here, and when it boils down to it, your faith is that everything came from nothing.
Why don't you take your profound discovery around the world and organise talks at major universities. I am sure that they will want to see a model as to how something comes from nothing.
Also if you can demonstrate how this works, then I have a business proposition for you. I look forward to your reply and the possibility of unlimited energy and wealth. Clink! (goes the wine glass.)
Shall I order the domain name everythingoutofnothing.com, in case someone takes it in the meantime?
Already told you how it probably happened. The “major universities” do not need to be told. They know already. I don't see too many universities giving much credence to fundie mythology though. Creationists have to get to school children because their lies do not wash with intelligent adults. But they don't get far with the intelligent children either.
Has god told you how the antimatter separated asymmetrically from the matter yet? Or have you got nothing but strawmen to offer us?
Stuart
But Stu, the process is still something. Laws and processes are not nothing and neither do they come from nothing. Nothing is nothing and does nothing.
If nothing can do something, then it was never nothing to begin with.
How hard is that to understand?
hello stuu, t8
God is substance? the evidence of things to come an is the evidence as they keep coming?
GOD created the universe, an from dust the universe together which is God created men?
-charityGood questions. I don't know if t8 thinks dust is modelling clay for divine biological mucking around but I don't think he is a deist or fan of Spinoza's god. I think he really believes that his Imaginary Friend gets mad and smites things, and hates figs.
It's Stu here, by the way!
Stuart
Quote (t8 @ May 19 2009,06:34) If the universe had a beginning; then the universe has a cause.
And there you have it. Do you have any evidence outside a book of compiled Jewish mythology that the universe had a discernible beginning? Know anyone (outside same book) that was there?Life is lived forward, an can only be understood backwards
Adam an Eve would not have known what death Would appear as, until Cain killed his brother ABEL?- CHARITYhello stuu..
Do not confine your children to your own learning, for they were born in another time.
-Chinese ProverbQuote (charity @ May 25 2009,22:30) Do not confine your children to your own learning, for they were born in another time.
-Chinese Proverb
Very apt, and yet that's what dogmatic adherence to the Bible does.I suggest the best way to get to the bottom of God, for those who can, is simply to ask.
Forget all the human preconceptions. Start with a blank slate, and write on it only that which you know.
Quote (Douglas @ Aug. 06 2009,11:37) Quote (charity @ May 25 2009,22:30) Do not confine your children to your own learning, for they were born in another time.
-Chinese Proverb
Very apt, and yet that's what dogmatic adherence to the Bible does.I suggest the best way to get to the bottom of God, for those who can, is simply to ask.
Forget all the human preconceptions. Start with a blank slate, and write on it only that which you know.
Hey Doug….. My slate is still blank….Do I need chalk
Quote (theodorej @ Aug. 06 2009,11:47) Quote (Douglas @ Aug. 06 2009,11:37) Quote (charity @ May 25 2009,22:30) Do not confine your children to your own learning, for they were born in another time.
-Chinese Proverb
Very apt, and yet that's what dogmatic adherence to the Bible does.I suggest the best way to get to the bottom of God, for those who can, is simply to ask.
Forget all the human preconceptions. Start with a blank slate, and write on it only that which you know.
Hey Doug….. My slate is still blank….Do I need chalk
Hah, yeah
And words. That's the hard bit. My slate is more empty than I'd like, and I'm handicapped by having to hear them by proxy (Chinese whispers demonstrates how rapidly a message can decay).
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