Identifying the soul

[malcolm ferris]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 11 2006,20:16)

Hi Malcolm, You ask “God formed man from the dust of the earth. What does that mean – he made a clay statue? “ Yes. And so could you but you could not impart to that clay, heart, mind and life. They came from the breath of God. We are made in the image of God and God is not flesh. Our likeness to God is in the inner man. Rom 7 “18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.”

Hi Nick

Yes I know that the image of God is the spiritual aspect of our makeup.
We are a tripartite being of body, soul and spirit.
Can any of these 3 be separated and you be a whole – complete – human being?

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You ask “God formed man from the dust of the earth. What does that mean – he made a clay statue? “ Yes. And so could you but you could not impart to that clay, heart, mind and life. They came from the breath of God.

So god formed a terracotta army of creatures then breathed on them all ?

Gen 2:19
And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

It doesn't say that – no mention of Him breathing on them.

I do not believe that God just made a bunch of statues and then breathed upon them,
and that sin then transformed it all into a different system in which the natural creation came about
by the awesome intricacy of a design that goes right to the cellular level and reveals a universe within-
beyond what the natural eye can perceive.

This was all made by God –
the whole pattern and design and we know by investigation
that the genetic material that forms offspring of any creature comes from the ancestor.

When God said to them be fruitful and multiply he was telling them to produce more of the same –
they did not produce a whole different kind of creation –
one based on genetic laws and design – from an entirely different origin (clay jars animated by God)

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Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

yes the soul wants to be what it is supposed to be – a son of God –
but is constrained because of sin in the flesh – t
he carnal nature of the body due to the natural birth which was marred by sin in the garden

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For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

How on earth does a man turn to God and cry out for salvation
if there is not something within doing this?

God does not force the decision up us,
we are given free moral agency like Adam to choose for ourself…

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Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

in other words the old man, outer man –
the man born by the law of sin is not the true expression of a son of God –
we die to this and become a new man by the baptism of the Holy Spirit –
an inner man – with our lives hid in Christ.

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I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

in other words we have now a duality of nature while still present in the flesh
and therein lies the battle – to die to the old and live to the new…

[malcolm ferris]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 11 2006,21:56)

Hi Malcolm, You say “The spirit of God in our nostrils would seem to be the spark of life that both initiates our life and also sustains it during the course of its natural expression in a body. “ the breath of God is not the Spirit of God. Or why would Romans 8 say ” 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: “ Surely our spirit would be The Holy Spirit. And we know that is not so. and 1 Cor 2 “10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.” Our spirit cannot know the deep things of God but only when reborn of the Spirit of God can we grasp what is of God.

Hi Nick

I did not say that it is –
obviously the breath of life that Adam received is not the same as the spirit we receive thought given of God. I
t is a spirit of life permitted because of sin –
one that has a carnal nature – not the same as the breath that God breathed into Adam.

Precisely why we see the verse in John 20:22 in which Jesus breathed on the disciples and said “receive the Holy Spirit”
We must all be God breathed once more – as Adam was originally.

Jesus said – you must be born again or you cannot even see (understand) the Kingdom of God.

BTW – It would be a lot easier to keep this all coherant if it was done on a one post at a time basis rather than a barrage upon barrage approach…

[malcolm ferris]

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He inherited our sinful estate being made like us in all ways except sin

What does that mean?
he inherited our sinful estate (I assume you mean the body) –
except sin – (in other words his soul was not marred by sinful nature)

Well we disagree as to the making of that body –
which is central to this whole discussion we are having.
Basically the disagreement lies in the details of how the body is formed.

I hold to the belief that the soul is planted in the earth (womb) and forms a body like any seed does.
Then upon physical birth – entrance into the outside world from the womb – a breath enlivens this body to become a living being.

As such I do not believe that Mary had any input at all into the physical estate of Jesus (his body)
for the temple was Holy and created completely by God – even as Adam was first formed from the dust.

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so he was tempted from within in every way we are but DID NOT SIN.

Tempted as we are – as the first Adam was.
But we cannot be included in this arrangement until the rebirth
After which we are indeed tempted as he was
In other words with a choice to do what we want
but the nature to overcome and choose the right thing.

Before the rebirth we have no possibility at all to attain to this
The temptation is quite unlike his therefore until we are reborn
Becoming then like unto him – at no point in Jesus life did he need a rebirth.
He did not need to be saved from sin.
So in this we are not similar to him, we become like him by a rebirth.
And then in all points we are tempted – like as he was.
Yet none of us to the point that he was in his flesh
To the kind of death he had to endure – for none of us would be able to endure it.

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He had no supernatural advantages over us.

Quite right – because – upon rebirth we have the same Spirit in us
The Spirit that raised him from the dead and also quickens our mortal bodies.

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He is the overcomer that we must follow by his grace that we can become overcomers too.

Amen – he is the blueprint of God for all sons of God to be made in the same image.
To be conformed to the same pattern

I am out for the rest of the day will get back to this later on…

[NickHassan]

Hi Malcolm,
No. He made one man.
God made the earth and the dust of that earth.
Gen 2.7
“7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, “

Then from the rib of that same man made woman so that we are all fully derived from Adam according to the flesh but from the breath of God according to the inner man.

[NickHassan]

Hi Malcolm,
You say
“I did not say that it is – obviously the breath of life that Adam received is not the same as the spirit we receive thought given of God. It is a spirit of life permitted because of sin – one that has a carnal nature – not the same as the breath that God breathed into Adam.”
Why not?
Surely God gave life to the dust, divided off a woman and sent them off to multiply, passing on that godly breath till now. Adam worshiped and served the serpent and thus his inner vessel; became filled with those fruits as sin and men have been burdened with them ever sionce but the vessel and the life of that vessel were not changed.

Jesus challenged the Pharisees to clean the inside of the cup knowing only he could do so and allow those vessels to be used as they were designed, as holders of the treasure of the Spirit of God just as he was.

Matt 15
” 16And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?

17Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?

18But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

19For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

20These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.”

Matt 23
” 25Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also”

[NickHassan]

Hi Malcolm,
You say
“What does that mean?
he inherited our sinful estate (I assume you mean the body) –
except sin – (in other words his soul was not marred by sinful nature)”

He partook of flesh and became fully man of the Adam through Mary.
Unless you wish to agree with the Catholics that Mary too was of an “immaculate conception” then he was no different to you and I.

[NickHassan]

Hi Malcolm,
You say
“I hold to the belief that the soul is planted in the earth (womb) and forms a body like any seed does.
Then upon physical birth – entrance into the outside world from the womb – a breath enlivens this body to become a living being.”
So you say an embryo is a soul being with no life till it is born? ah well.

[NickHassan]

Hi Malcolm,
You have told us this is what you believe
“As such I do not believe that Mary had any input at all into the physical estate of Jesus (his body)
for the temple was Holy and created completely by God – even as Adam was first formed from the dust.”

But scripture says he was conceived,
and uses the same greek word to say
“conceived”
as it uses of John the Baptist
so perhaps you should align your beliefs with scripture?

He was truly a son of man.

[NickHassan]

Hi Malcolm,
He was just like us.
You say
“at no point in Jesus life did he need a rebirth.”

True but he was reborn
of water to fulfill all righteousness,
and the Spirit so he could do the works of God
as he was just like us, powerless,
and we can follow him.

[NickHassan]

Hi Malcolm,
You say
“for the temple was Holy and created completely by God -“

He was just like us
1 Cor 3
“16Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. “
1 Corinthians 3:17
“If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are”

[malcolm ferris]

Hi Nick

Quote

Hi Malcolm, You say “I hold to the belief that the soul is planted in the earth (womb) and forms a body like any seed does. Then upon physical birth – entrance into the outside world from the womb – a breath enlivens this body to become a living being.” So you say an embryo is a soul being with no life till it is born? ah well.

Yes well that would be a good subject for another thread I suppose : is abortion murder?

As to it having no life until birth – it is obviously living –
yet at the same time obviously not a living being in the sense of having consciousness.

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But scripture says he was conceived, and uses the same greek word to say “conceived” as it uses of John the Baptist so perhaps you should align your beliefs with scripture?

This is discussed in another thread and I won't go over it again here – so we can stay with the subject of discussion here : the soul.
I merely mentioned it to illustrate and summarize where the differences lay in our two – obviously different viewpoints.

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He partook of flesh and became fully man of the Adam through Mary. Unless you wish to agree with the Catholics that Mary too was of an “immaculate conception” then he was no different to you and I.

Nice try Nick – you know full well I don't believe in the immaculate conception – Mary is not Theoticus – the blessed Mother of God
We have as I said – discussed this in another thread (or possible several others) so I am not going to take up space repeating myself here.

Quote

Hi Malcolm, You say “I did not say that it is – obviously the breath of life that Adam received is not the same as the spirit we receive though given of God. It is a spirit of life permitted because of sin – one that has a carnal nature – not the same as the breath that God breathed into Adam.” Why not?

why not – because Adam was not born in sin – shaped in iniquity…

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Surely God gave life to the dust, divided off a woman and sent them off to multiply, passing on that godly breath till now.

I don't think so –
there was this little thing called sin that entered in and upset the original process

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Adam worshiped and served the serpent and thus his inner vessel;

Worshipped and served? Where does it say he worshipped and served him?
It says they partook of the tree of death, I see no mention of worshipping or serving.
They became the servants of sin by partaking of the fruit of the tree.

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became filled with those fruits as sin

The nature of man changed when sin entered into them –
the partaking of that fruit changed our nature from one

with a propensity towards God and therefore a compatibility with Him
such that we could have fellowship with Him –

to a carnal nature that is at enmity with Him.

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and men have been burdened with them ever since but the vessel and the life of that vessel were not changed.

Sorry but I disagree – every sickness that has ever followed is as a result of the transgression in the garden.
Before this there was never a sickness In the body – and it was not in a process of death.

Adam was not like a charged up battery – slowly running down until he either expired or was plugged in.

The possibility for Adam to die was only upon the partaking of the tree of death in direct disobedience to the Word of God.

Romans 8:19-23
For the earnest expectation of all mankind waits for the manifestation of the sons of God.
For man was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who gave him free will in the hope he would choose rightly.
Because man himself shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
For we know that the whole creation groans and labors in pain to this day.
And not only they, but ourselves also, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, that is, the redemption of our bodies. [Llamsa – peshitta translation]

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Hi Malcolm, What does this mean? “not all true sons of Adam are fallen sons of God and He will lose none of them” Who is a true son of Adam? Do sons of God not have to be adopted through rebirth or are they already sons??

The word translated adoption in the bible means the placing or appointment of a son.
It does not mean the making of a son.
It is because we ARE sons that the spirit of Adoption (Holy Spirit) is placed in our hearts (Gal 4:6)
how? Rebirth
So we are reborn because we are sons
We are predestinated unto adoption – by God's foreknowledge. (Eph 1:5)

ROMANS 9:3-5
For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Whose are the fathers?
Israel is my firstborn son… that is what God said of them. (Ex 4:22)
And yet not all Israel are Israel.
Many are called but few are chosen.

[NickHassan]

Hi Malcolm,
Do show us from scripture that the original nature of Adam was one with a propensity towards God and with a compatitbilty with God and how his nature changed.

I suspect his true weak nature never changed but was revealed under the challenges placed before him and the only changes after that were because of God excluding him from His presence due to his choice of obeying his wife who disobeyed God and made the serpent her true father, just as the Pharisees did.

[NickHassan]

Hi Malcolm,

“why not – because Adam was not born in sin – shaped in iniquity…”

No he was a vessel just as we are and his clean but empty vessel found not life but death to fill it.

[NickHassan]

Hi Malcolm,
There was no tree of death.
They disobeyed, which was the sin,
and ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

There was only good things in the garden.
Gen 1
” 31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day”.
Gen 2
“9And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. “

But the knowledge of good and evil were not good things for men to have access to as it burdened him with sin choices without the strength to always make good ones.

Man immediately suffered from scruples and anxiety and thought nakedness was sin and attempted to cover himself. Guilt too caused them to hide from God. Then they blamed others and their behaviours became intolerable to God.

Gen 3
” 7And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

8And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

9And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

10And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

11And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

12And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

13And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done?
And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.”

[malcolm ferris]

Jesus was reborn?

Sorrry Nick but there are 3 elements in any birth – water, blood and life (spirit)

Jesus did not have any blood sacrifice offered for him – he was the blood sacrifice.

His washing in the waters of Jordan was the preparation of the sacrifice.

The Spirit of God that came upon him was not the baptism of the Holy Ghost
It was the Holy Ghost Himself – indwelling His tabernacle.

The works that were done in the body of Jesus were not his works but God's.

He was the only begotten son of God – that doesn't sound just like us.
He had memory of an existence with his Father before his earthly incarnation.
He was the last Adam

Where does it say he was just like us?

I find where it says he was tempted in all ways like us
That he was made in the likeness of man.

We are the Holy temple of God only after rebirth, the baptism in water,
cleansing of the blood and entrance of the Holy Spirit is what makes us Holy.

Are you suggesting that everyone is a holy temple of God – reborn or not?

[NickHassan]

Hi Malcolm,
“Sorrry Nick but there are 3 elements in any birth – water, blood and life (spirit)”

Indeed such are the salvation witnesses for the Son of God in heaven, and as we follow him , also for us. He was like us to us, empty of knowledge and power and was reborn from above. We can follow him.

1Jn 5
” 6This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.”

Heb 2
“14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;…. 17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. “

Heb 4
“15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. “

Do not put before us an impossible task. A supernatural being made anew and unlike to us and unaccustomed to the stresses and temptations of life who cruised through life without sin.
Such we cannot follow.

[NickHassan]

Hi Malcolm,
You say
“It is because we ARE sons that the spirit of Adoption (Holy Spirit) is placed in our hearts (Gal 4:6)
how? Rebirth
So we are reborn because we are sons
We are predestinated unto adoption – by God's foreknowledge. (Eph 1:5)”

So for what reason did Jesus say to Nicodemus;

”  7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. ”

Does that mean to you he was telling him he already was a son and did not need to do anything but just rejoice about it?

God knows the future
and we are in that future,
but we have to act and to obey
to partake in it.

[malcolm ferris]

Hi Nick

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Hi Malcolm, Do show us from scripture that the original nature of Adam was one with a propensity towards God and with a compatitbilty with God and how his nature changed. I suspect his true weak nature never changed but was revealed under the challenges placed before him and the only changes after that were because of God excluding him from His presence due to his choice of obeying his wife who disobeyed God and made the serpent her true father, just as the Pharisees did.

Would God have allowed Adam to name all of the animals if he were not a son of God?
What other creature has ever been given this privilege?

God blessed man originally – part of that blessing was for man to have dominion over the earth and it's creatures.
So he was similar to God in this respect – a Lord over the earth.
Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth.

Oh yes and what did God have to say about all of His creation?
That it was good – except for man who was really a rascal in disguise?
Not just that it was good.

Then there is the fact that they had fellowship with Him
Does God have any fellowship with the wicked? Even a secret sinner?

Does anyone else on this forum think that Adam already had a nature at variance with God before the fall?

——————————————————————

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Hi Malcolm, “why not – because Adam was not born in sin – shaped in iniquity…” No he was a vessel just as we are and his clean but empty vessel found not life but death to fill it.

Just as we are? – well the Bible tells me we are born in sin and shaped in iniquity
That there is none righteous no not one.

We were not a clean vessel and are not nor cannot be until a rebirth occurs.

——————————————————————

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There was no tree of death.

If the fruits of the tree of knowledge of good and evil produced death then it is a fair call to say it is a tree of death.
Death how? By knowledge apart from God.

Now I know you are going to say that it is not what goes into the mouth but what comes out that makes one clean or unclean
However
The fruits of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was death – a lie – you shall not surely die…

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They disobeyed, which was the sin

True enough the transgression was disobedience – it brought sin upon mankind –
but the disobedience was because of doubt of God – unbelief in His Word.
And this unbelief could not have occurred had their been no lie to produce it.

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and ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

It was not a physical act of eating food – partake is a better word – the taking of that fruit had some interesting effects upon them and brought some interesting words of punishment upon all involved…

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There was only good things in the garden

Eze 28:13 tells me otherwise. It tells me Satan was there and that through the Serpent he brought destruction upon mankind

Gen 1:31
Everything that God made is good, and not one part of it is of the Devil.
But everything the Devil has perverted is not good, but is the good creation of God – made bad.

Satan is not a creator so he can only take what God has made and pervert it.

Gen 2:9 is a 2 part statement
1 – everything that was good for food
2 – the other two trees which were not for bread alone but for the receiving of life or death.
The first were natural trees – the other two were not for natural food but spiritual trees.

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But the knowledge of good and evil were not good things for men to have access to as it burdened him with sin choices without the strength to always make good ones.

According to you perhaps – the fruit of the tree of knowledge and evil brought death even as the fruit of the tree of life would have brought them life.
The choice lay with man – to partake or not.

MATTHEW 7:15-20
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

So a tree is either good or evil. This tree of the knowledge of good and evil was therefore a tree of evil masked as a tree of good.
The proof of this lies in the fruits of it. To partake of it meant death.
Therefore it was not a tree that was good for food was it.

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Man immediately suffered from scruples and anxiety and thought nakedness was sin and attempted to cover himself. Guilt too caused them to hide from God. Then they blamed others and their behaviours became intolerable to God.

Interesting interpretation.

Man became aware of their state of nakedness – and had shame in it – attempting to cover this nakedness with the works of their own hands.
Much as a religious person who is pricked in their conscience might attempt to cover their own condition with a man made religion.

Where does it say they thought that nakedness was sin?
You say guilt was also a cause in their hiding Gen 3:10 tells me it was fear and shame.

[NickHassan]

Hi Malcolm,
Let me get this straight. You believe a perfect man perhaps foolishly ate a poisoned apple and the apple killed him? Hmmm.

[malcolm ferris]

Cute Nick

Surely your memory is not so short that you cannot recall the discussions we have had in the past on that subject in other threads….

For more of my thoughts on the whole garden of Eden situation and sin you could try going here or here or here and reading if you are really interested.
If not don't bother.

I have said plenty on this subject in the last little while so I am going to give it a rest for a bit.
I have learned a lot from our exchanges over the past days and it has helped to clarify my thinking in several areas.

blessings

[Author]

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