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Hi Malcolm,
That is true given our knowledge but God could still have pulled the plug anyway?
Interesting to see how it is shown in Rev 22
” 2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.”Which is similar to Ezek 47
“12And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine”Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 11 2006,02:10) Hi Malcolm.
“Even animals live by the breath of God? Where does it say that in the Word?”
Here are some scriptures that may give light.Gen 6
” 17And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. “Jb 34
” 14If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;15All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. “
Gen 7
“15And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life. “
” 21And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:22All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died”
Eccl 3
” 19For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.20All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?”
Job 33
” 4The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.”
Gen 6:17 = Ruwach – same word used as Spirit in the phrase Spirit of God. (Gen 1:2; Gen 6:3), also used to mean breath, mind, wind …
So this does not say that animals live by the breath of God
For a start it is not the same word (Nshamah) that is used in Gen 2:7 for breath…Job 34:14-15 Is speaking of Man – when it says all flesh it is not speaking of All flesh of all living creatures – but of all flesh of Man.
Otherwise you would have God pouring out His Spirit upon all flesh of all living creatures in Joel 2:28
On the day of Pentecost it was men that were moved by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit not animals…Gen 7:15 – Once again the word is Ruwach and not Nshamah
So this is not saying that all flesh live by the breath of God
Merely that all living creatures have a spirit of life
Each distinct as to its nature and therefore physical expression in flesh (Gen 1:11)Gen 7:21-22 This shows us only that all living creatures have a breath of life whereby they live
Not that all live by the breath of God
Simply that all live by breathing.Eccl 3:19-21 – Once again the word used here for breath is Ruwach (as in Spirit of God, spirit of Man, spirit of all living things, wind …)
Also I think we need to read a little deeper into what is being said in these verses.
It says that man has no preeminance over the beast
Was this the case before the fall?
God blessed man and made them masters over the beasts of earth, and gave him dominion over the earth.
Adam had a part even in naming the living creatures…It says all come from the dust and go to the dust – in other words all die – why?
Because of sin in the garden!
Before the fall there was no death.It also says that the spirit of man goes upwards where as the spirit of the beast doesn't
So it hardly seems that this is the same spirit at allOne is of the earth and goes thus to the earth
The other is from above and returns therefore to that place.Job 33:4 Doesn't say that the breath of the almighty has given all living things life – only that it has give Job (a man) life.
Hi Malcolm,
The breath of God gave two things to the dust of man to make him a living being-soul and spirit-so the verse about where the spirit of men and beasts go does not relate does it?Hi Malcolm,
So this verse contains both breath and spirit of God.
And it does relate to all flesh.
Jb 34
” 14If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; 15All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.”Jl 2.28
'28And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.”
NABS has “all mankind”
Well of course the lion will lie down with the lamb-by the work of God ? relevantHi malcolm,
Gen 7
“15And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.”Breath here is RUWACH which in animals surely is not the Spirit of God.
And yet 7.22
“21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land , died.”Breath here is N@shamah
Hi Malcolm,
I believe this relates to the philosopher's view of death only, where man has no preeminence.
Ecc 3
“Eccl 3
” 19For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.”Hi Malcolm,
This is another verse where Ruwach and n@shamah appear together.Jb 33
Job 33
” 4The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.”So we are made by the Spirit,
given life by the breath?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 11 2006,04:25) Hi malcolm, Gen 7
“15And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.”Breath here is RUWACH which in animals surely is not the Spirit of God.
And yet 7.22
“21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land , died.”Breath here is N@shamah
Hi Nick
Gen 7:22 Yes breath of life – but nowhere does it say this breath came by God breathing upon them as He did Adam.
That detail is important in Gen 2:7
It is not just a statement of the obvious
That – like every other living thing God breathed the breath of life on man also.
It is stated to show the distinct character of man and his life from that of all other living things.Hi Malcolm,
Jb 27.3 also has both words
“3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;”
and NASB” 3For as long as life is in me,
And the breath of God is in my nostrils”Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 11 2006,05:04) Hi Malcolm,
Jb 27.3 also has both words
“3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;”
and NASB” 3For as long as life is in me,
And the breath of God is in my nostrils”
Hi NickShowing what?
That our breath ( which is the expression of our life as an individual
Our own distinct personality)And the spirit of God in our nostrils
(the spark and sustainer of our life and being)Are both only in our flesh as long as we have physical life?
To me our breath is directly linked to our self
(ego – soul – whatever you wish to call it)
Which exists beyond the grave in my opinion.The spirit of God in our nostrils would seem to be the spark of life that both initiates our life
and also sustains it during the course of its natural expression in a body.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 11 2006,04:15) Hi Malcolm,
So this verse contains both breath and spirit of God.
And it does relate to all flesh.
Jb 34
” 14If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; 15All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.”Jl 2.28
'28And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.”
NABS has “all mankind”
Well of course the lion will lie down with the lamb-by the work of God ? relevant
Hi Nick
GENESIS 6:12
And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.It was mankind that had corrupted the earth not animals…
PSALMS 65:2
O thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall all flesh come.PSALMS 145:21
My mouth shall speak the praise of the LORD: and let all flesh bless his holy name for ever and ever.ISAIAH 49:26
And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.ISAIAH 40:5
And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.ISAIAH 66:23
And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.JEREMIAH 25:31
A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD.EZEKIEL 21:5
That all flesh may know that I the LORD have drawn forth my sword out of his sheath: it shall not return any more.Speaking of mankind again I believe…
Quote NABS has “all mankind” Well the words 'all flesh' are the same in all cases same Hebrew words so why translate them as different?
Eccl 3:19-21
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?Why is it that the same thing befalls man as befalls the animals?
Is this the way it was intended originally?
Were we made to be just like the natural brute beast?No – we were originally made to be masters of them and to have dominion.
Clearly the fact as stated that the spirit of man goes upward
In direct contrast
To the spirit of the beast which goes downward
Shows us that this is not the way things were intended to be.It is equally clear that man in his present state is not as Adam originally was.
We are fallen and so our birth is not as his (Adam's) was.
Adam was not born in sin, shaped in iniquity…This happened as a result of sin in the garden and the resultant fall of mankind.
So God allowed this – this is not the way of God's original order.
This disruption to the order and plan of God for mankind was settled at Calvary
When Jesus became the propitiation for our sins and made a way for man to be redeemed
To be restored back to our original position as Adam had in Eden
In order to come to the tree of life and live forever.Hi Malcolm.
You say
“Clearly the fact as stated that the spirit of man goes upward
In direct contrast
To the spirit of the beast which goes downward”Is this stated as fact?
Ecc 3
” 21Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?”Doesn't look like a statement of fact to me but a question.
Hi Malcolm,
You say
“To be restored back to our original position as Adam had in Eden
In order to come to the tree of life and live forever”He never partook of that opportunity
so we are all as he was in his final state
with no relationship with our Creator
till we met Jesus..Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 11 2006,07:15) Hi Malcolm,
You say
“To be restored back to our original position as Adam had in Eden
In order to come to the tree of life and live forever”He never partook of that opportunity
so we are all as he was in his final state
with no relationship with our Creator
till we met Jesus..
Jesus who is called by Paul in 1 Cor 15 the last Adam.
So we being the Bride of Christ – would stand therefore in the postiion as Eve.Our position being therefore one of a promise of eternal life
Even as the original Adam and Eve had
But were unable to attain to
Never coming to the place of partaking of the Tree of Life.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 11 2006,07:12) Hi Malcolm.
You say
“Clearly the fact as stated that the spirit of man goes upward
In direct contrast
To the spirit of the beast which goes downward”Is this stated as fact?
Ecc 3
” 21Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?”Doesn't look like a statement of fact to me but a question.
Hi NickWell one sure thing it does shows is that there is a distinction between the spirit of man and the spirit of the beast.
You asked in an earlier post
Quote “the verse about where the spirit of men and beasts go does not relate does it?” Doesn't it?
It would seem that the final destination for the beast and man is common insofar as the flesh is concerned :-
namely the dust from whence it came.Yet man's descent to this location is as a result of the transgression in the garden.
The day that he partook of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil set this whole thing in motion.
So it was not originally intended to be this way
but rather that man would come to the tree of life and live forever.So whether you look at this verse as a question asking who knows the spirit of man or who knows the spirit of the beast?
Perhaps similar to :I CORINTHIANS 2:11
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.Or as the question : who knows if the spirit of man goes upward (towards Heaven) or if the spirit of the beast goes downward to the earth?
We have the thought that the spirit of the beast goes downward to the earth – so it is an earthy spirit.
I CORINTHIANS 15:47 tells us the first man is of the earth earthy – he has a carnal spirit which is at enmity with God.
Was this always the case? Was Adam at enmity with God from the moment the breath was breathed into him?…Or is this the result of the transgression – the knowledge of good and evil?
Wasn't the first man originally intended to make a progression in a direction that is more Heavenly
To come to the tree of life and live forever?…Can the earthy man achieve this? Or is he carnal and therefore sold under sin?
I CORINTHIANS 15:50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.Is this saying that we cannot have eternal life in a body that exists upon this earth?
Jesus Christ seems to disprove – he rose from the dead – his body was not allowed by God to see corruption.When the living are changed in their flesh and the dead raise in their flesh will they have eternal life in this flesh?
Of course this flesh will have been transformed to be incorruptible, it will no longer be earthy – yet it will still be flesh
How is this possible? Is this what Adam would have attained to had he come to the tree of life?
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