Identifying the soul

[jbl]

I'd like to start a dicussion over the soul…
Are we souls or do we possess souls?

Every soul belongs to God.

If we have an 'immortal soul' it conflicts with the scriptures teaching only God is immortal, doesn't it? Also, doesn't Ezekiel 18:4 say that the soul can die?

However, If we are the soul, why is it frequently regarded as being seperate to the human body? Scripture says God can destroy both body AND soul.

So… what is the soul? Is it spirit or flesh? Is it spirit…but still mortal?

–jbl

[Adam Pastor]

Greetings jbl … here is a copy of a post that I used many moons ago … hope it helps:

The word ‘soul’ in the Scriptures (nephesh in the Hebrew Bible {Strong’s 5315},
psuche in the NT {Strong’s 5590}) is used predominantly to denote three things …

1) An actual creature (man or animal), esp. a living creature. Synonym for person.

2) The very life(-force) of a creature … One’s life

3) As a synonym for YOU, YOURSELF … One’s Self
Hence, instead of saying I am in despair … one would say ‘my soul is in despair’; instead of saying ‘I am very happy … one would say ‘my soul is very happy’.
(Compare Psa 42:11 Why art thou cast down, O my soul? and why art thou disquieted within me?
i.e. David was [cast] down, he was disquieted. OR
Mat 26:38 My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death:
i.e. Jesus of Nazareth was in turmoil, he was exceeding sorrowful)

Context determines how nephesh/psuche is used.

For examples of No. 1 we have …

Souls = human beings and animals, especially in the sense of them being alive

(Gen 1:21,24) And God created great whales, and every living creature/nephesh that moveth 24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature/nephesh after his kind …

(Gen 2:7) And YAHWEH God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul/nephesh.

(Gen 2:19) … and whatsoever Adam called every living creature/nephesh, that was the name thereof.

(Gen 9:9-10, 12, 16) And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you; 10 And with every living creatur/nephesh that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth. 12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature/nephesh that is with you, for perpetual generations: 16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature/nephesh of all flesh that is upon the earth.

‘SOUL=PERSON’ (7 persons/souls Gen 46:25;
70 souls/persons Exo 1:5; 3000 persons/souls Acts 2:41; etc)
It wasn’t 3000 non-corporeals that were baptized. NO! It was 3000 persons i.e. 3000 souls!
See also Acts 27:37, Gen 12:5, etc

Souls live! Souls die! [Ezek 18:4,20 ]
Souls are slain/killed. [Ezek 13:19, Num 31:19,35:30,etc] Souls are ‘cut off’ [Exo 31:14, Lev 22:3, Num 19:20,etc]
The scriptures speak of DEAD SOULS/nephesh! The KJV translators obscured this fact! However, the
fact remains that the Scriptures speak of SOULS dying and speaks of SOULS BEING DEAD and speaks of SOULS being corporeal! Right now, THE DEAD PERSONS/SOULS ARE DEAD & SLEEP IN THE DUST OF THE EARTH!

(Ezek 18:4,20) … the soul/nephesh that sinneth, it shall die.

(Lev 19:28 ) Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead/nephesh…
(Lev 21:1) … There shall none be defiled for the dead/nephesh among his people:
(Lev 21:11) Neither shall he go in to any dead body/nephesh …
(Lev 22:4) … And whoso toucheth any thing that is unclean by the dead/nephesh …
(Num 5:2) … and every one that hath an issue, and whosoever is defiled by the dead/nephesh
(Num 6:6) All the days that he separateth himself unto YAHWEH he shall come at no dead body/nephesh

(Num 19:11) He that toucheth the dead body/nephesh of any man …
(Num 19:13) Whosoever toucheth the dead body/nephesh of any man that is dead …
(Num 19:16) And whosoever toucheth one that is slain with a sword in the open fields, or a dead body/nephesh …

(Num 31:19) … whosoever hath killed any person/nephesh, and whosoever hath touched any slain …
(Num 35:30) Whoso killeth any person/nephesh …
(Josh 20:9) … whosoever killeth any person/nephesh at unawares …

Et Cetera

For examples of No. 2 we have …

Matthew 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Greek ”psuche” – life) or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? (Greek ”psuche” – life).

(John 13:37) Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life/psuche for thy sake.

(Acts 20:24) But none of these things move me, neither count I my life/psuche dear unto myself …

Et Cetera

For examples of No. 3 we have …

Numbers 23:10 … Let me die ( original, “let my soul” ) the death of the righteous, and let my last end be like his!

Esther 4:13 Then Mordecai commanded to answer Esther, Think not with thyself ( original, “soul” ) …

Luke 12:19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou has much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, [and] be merry. (He is talking to him-self).

Et Cetera

So, it is not so much that you have ‘a soul’ it is rather … ‘you are a soul’ … to save a soul is to save someone …
a dead soul is a dead person …
The Hebrew Scriptures indeed speak of SOULS/NEPHESH being touched and being dead! The same word ‘nephesh’ is synonymous with ‘self’ and ‘your life’.Therefore again, yet another proof that the Scriptures teach that
‘THE SOUL’ is MORTAL!

When ONE DIES! = They die = SOUL DIES!
When ONE DIES! = HIMSELF/HERSELF DIES = SELF DIES = SOUL DIES.
When ONE DIES! = Their life ends = Their SOUL ends.
When ONE DIES! = Their life ceases = Their SOUL ceases.

The scriptures do NOT teach that we are dichotomous or trichotomous.The scriptures teach that we are a ‘psychosomatic whole’
The whole man/soul dies … the whole man/soul shall rise again at the last day!
The Scriptures clearly teach that the Nephesh/Soul is MORTAL!

However, as you see commonly in the Hebrew Bible; for emphasis, terms such as body, soul, spirit, bone, marrow, etc are used poetically and metaphorically to denote ‘the whole being, the whole PERSON’.

Hence, to love GOD with your all the scriptures would exhort us to love GOD with

with all thine heart,

and with all thy soul,

and with all thy mind,

and with all thy strength

…. Deut 6:5, Matt 22:37, Mark 12:30, Luke 10:27. These verses are not giving us a biology lesson! They are not splitting up man into composite parts! NO! It is telling us to love GOD with everything.
Hebrews 4:11 isn’t a biology lesson. NO! It is poetically and metaphorically saying that the word of GOD can get to the very intent of man’s heart … that there is nothing in man that cannot be touched or affected by GOD’s word.
1 Thess 5:23 interprets itself. Paul is praying that GOD would sanctify the saints TOTALLY & WHOLLY… their entire being. He emphasizes this by using the terms, whole spirit, soul & body;

Neither David nor Jesus was saying that some ethereal, immortal part of them was cast down, disquieted or exceedingly sorrowful in Psalms 42:11 and Matthew 26:38. No! David was saying that he was cast down and disquieted. Jesus was saying that he was exceedingly sorrowful.

Context! Context! It’s all about Context!

Hence Matthew 10:28. Jesus was no Platonist. He was no Gnostic. He most definitely did not adhere to the platonic doctrine of a part of man that lives on after the body dies. That doctrine is pagan and not scriptural. So Matthew 10:28 is poetically and metaphorically saying …
“Don’t fear them that are able to kill you but are not able to kill you totally so that you could never be resurrected; rather fear HIM who is able to DESTROY and ANNIHILATE YOU TOTALLY (hence the expression ‘body and soul’)
in Gehenna … the lake of fire”

Souls are dying daily … Souls are being killed daily.
That is, men, women and children are dying daily.
However, there will be a future resurrection of the just and the unjust.
ALL shall be raised. Some to life in the age to come and immortality. Some to contempt, judgment and shame in that age. [Dan 12:2] Some will forever be with the Lord, while others will be destroyed in the lake of fire. Jesus was saying nothing different than what the prophets of old had already said. They weren’t Platonists and neither was Jesus. Jesus was warning us to fear GOD and not man. To fear GOD His Father who is able to destroy & annihilate us totally with no hope of ever coming back.

[NickHassan]

Hi Adam Pastor,
What is resurrection to you? Re-creation?

[Adam Pastor]

Resurrection is Resurrection to me!
GOD will bring us back to life again!
No doubt our bodies will be new bodies. [2 Cor 5.1]
The saints will be immortalized!

[NickHassan]

Hi Adam,
Thank you. Scripture says in the first resurrection the new body goes over the old.[1Cor 15.53f]
What of the second?
So at death our spirit returns to God[Eccl] and at resurrection the same spirit is given back from heaven?
And those who are judged as goats then have their being, including that spirit, cast into the lake of fire?

[NickHassan]

Hi Adam Pastor,

You say
“When ONE DIES! = They die = SOUL DIES!
When ONE DIES! = HIMSELF/HERSELF DIES = SELF DIES = SOUL DIES.
When ONE DIES! = Their life ends = Their SOUL ends.
When ONE DIES! = Their life ceases = Their SOUL ceases.”

But surely when one dies in the first death only our body dies.
It rots away to become as dust again.
But it is only the second death that can destroy the soul.

It is dead but still exists.

Jesus teaches in Matt 10.28

Matt 10 .28
“28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

[malcolm ferris]

How can we have a soul that is eternal and yet God alone is eternal?
Good question.
How can a son be eternal? – sons have beginnings.
So we know that there is no such thing as an eternal son of God.
It is a son of God with eternal life.
It is the life that is eternal – for the life comes from God – from whom the son sprang.
So to my way of seeing it the soul is like a seed.
A seed has potential for life, to produce the life contained within it once planted.
If the soul is of God it will produce according to kind once quickened. (Gen 1:11)

TYMTCW

[NickHassan]

Hi Malcolm,
So you see the soul of man as a seed.
To what then does this soul-seed attain when it is fully grown?

Acxcording to Jesus a seed must die to grow.

Jn 12
” 24Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. “

So does the soul of natural man live or die while he lives?

[malcolm ferris]

Hi Nick

We must be born again, the soul must issue forth again this time not by the spirit of the world but by the spirit of the Word.
This is a death of the flesh – a circumcision by the Spirit – not a physical death because it is not a physical birth – it is a spiritual rebirth.

[NickHassan]

Hi Malcolm,
I know that and we are not discussing
New Life
but
Natural life

You said
“So to my way of seeing it the soul is like a seed.
A seed has potential for life, to produce the life contained within it once planted.
If the soul is of God it will produce according to kind once quickened.”

As if to say
we do not need to be reborn of the Spirit of God,
but the seed of eternity is in every man,
from the breath of God at conception.

Is this what you believe?

[malcolm ferris]

Hi Nick

The soul is not natural life – the soul I am talking of is not a natural entity at all.

Am I saying that we do not need to be reborn of the Spirit of God, having the seed of eternity in us from conception?

No – seed is a potential. Unless the potential is realised then it will never eventuate.
Our original birth – brings us into this world as a fallen son of God.
We are in a hybrid condition – being quickened by the spirit of the flesh which is at enmity with God.

In such a condition we will never reach the potetial that lays within.
Only the spiritual rebirth by God's Spirit can achieve this for us.
And this is only accessable through the blood of the righteous Son of God.
Which paid the penalty for sin granting us access back to God.

[NickHassan]

Hi Malcolm,
I believe all men are made as vessels to contain the Spirit of God. Man has nothing to offer God. God gives us everything we need now and forever. The vessel of body, soul and spirit offers nothing but 70-80 years of natural life before the spirit leaves, the cord breaks and the bucket falls to the bottom of the well.
We have that short time to find Jesus and obtain the spring of eternal life.

Ecc 12
” 5Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:

6Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.

7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.'

The contents when infilled in our earthenware vessels is indeed treasure.

2Cor 4
” 5For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

6For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

7But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.”

[NickHassan]

Quote (malcolm ferris @ Aug. 31 2006,00:15)

Hi Nick The soul is not natural life – the soul I am talking of is not a natural entity at all. Am I saying that we do not need to be reborn of the Spirit of God, having the seed of eternity in us from conception? No – seed is a potential. Unless the potential is realised then it will never eventuate. Our original birth – brings us into this world as a fallen son of God. We are in a hybrid condition – being quickened by the spirit of the flesh which is at enmity with God. In such a condition we will never reach the potetial that lays within. Only the spiritual rebirth by God's Spirit can achieve this for us. And this is only accessable through the blood of the righteous Son of God. Which paid the penalty for sin granting us access back to God.

Hi Malcolm,
Are you talking of two souls-natural and spiritual?
Or does only reborn man have a soul in your view?
Or does natural man have only a potential soul till rebirth?

So how can this verse be read?
Ez 8.4
” 4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”

[malcolm ferris]

Hi Nick

Christ is to be formed in us.
We are to be renewed in the spirit of our minds. (renew – to make new or remake)
We are to be not conformed to the world but transformed by the Spirit.
Our form is to change – from a carnal to a spiritual.

Now of course – as Paul said – i know (not think) that in me (that is in my flesh) lies no good thing. He did not say that no good thing lay in his soul.

We are redeemed back to God according to the scriptures – brought back – why? because our names are on the Lamb's book of Life.

I THESSALONIANS 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Blessings

[NickHassan]

Hi Malcolm
Surely the Spirit of Christ rests within the body -soul vessel with our own spirit, and that Spirit reeducates our mind according to the Scriptures as we feed on them. No change in the vessel but a restitution according to the Spirit of Christ.

[malcolm ferris]

Nick

You are correct we have nothing to offer God, it is all about what He has to offer Him.
We must receive what He has already done for us by Grace.

We have nothing to offer – but we do have something to do, a response to make.
We are to receive – to take – to accept – His free gift.

We must have therefore something with which to take it – to receive it – some facility with which to accept it.

We are to receive the Word in our hearts by faith.
How are we to receive it? If there is nothing at all in us that God can use?
What facility therefore allows us to receive and therefore retain the word?

Surely we have to have a facility to chose – free moral agency.
Is this the spirit of our mind that does this?

I do not believe so.

The mind has the capacity to reason but it is the heart (aka the soul) by which man decides to receive or reject anything.
We are told to believe in our heart – not believe in our mind

How is it that we can receive the Word of God and therefore retain it if it is a decision of our natural mind? For the natural man – the carnal spirit – is at enmity with God – cannot know the things of God at all for they are spiritually discerned.

Jesus told the Pharisees that they could not understand his words because they did not have any place in them to receive it with. They had shut off their hearts to God and His Word and their minds were the only channel they would use to seek to know of Him.

Now we cannot understand the heart to mean emotions for we cannot base our belief and faith in him upon emotional experience, it must be based upon a sure foundation. Upon the Word of Truth and the witness of the Spirit upon this to make it live.

[NickHassan]

Hi Malcolm,

Jesus spoke about receiving the seed.
Mk 4
” 3Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:

4And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.

5And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:

6But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.

7And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.

8And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.

9And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

10And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.

11And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

12That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

13And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

14The sower soweth the word.

15And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

16And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;

17And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

18And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,

19And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

20And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

21And he said unto them, Is a candle brought to be put under a bushel, or under a bed? and not to be set on a candlestick?

22For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad.

23If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.”

And hearing and receiving and obeying the gospel, the Word of God, is the planting of the seed.

Rom 10
” 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?”

And the death of the seed of Christ is received in baptism

Rom 6
” 3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life”

And the planting is followed by the watering with the water of life
1Cor 3
“5Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

6I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

7So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

8Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. “

Indeed all the work in us is of God while we sleep
Mk 4
” 26And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;

27And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.

28For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.

29But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come”.

So what of this new teaching about a new soul?

.

[malcolm ferris]

Nick

What teaching of a new soul?

Renew means to make new again.
Rebirth is to re-issue forth.

There are not two souls.
It is a nature change that occurs – the old nature of the soul dies and is replaced by a new nature – which is given by the Spirit of God.
The old nature was by the spirit of the world.

[malcolm ferris]

Are we not a tripartite being?
Comprised of body, soul and spirit.
Certainly the scriptures say we are.
Clearly the body is identifiable – we can see it with the natural eyes
Most of us have no problem with the spirit either – even though it is not visible.
Few of us would argue that we do not have a mind. (spirit = mind Eph 4:23; Rom 8:7;)

But when it comes to the soul – this is the least known and understood part of us.
It is the part that God is primarily concerned with and yet we remain quite ignorant of it until we are reborn.

We are told that the Word of God is alive and powerful like a two-edged sword and divides between the soul and spirit.
So there is a difference between the two, which the Word of God is able to divide.
For the Word is a discerner of the thoughts and intentions of the heart (the soul).

When someone has determined something through the facility of the mind – it is possible for them to amend their opinion, to change their mind through further consideration for example.
As long as this idea has not dropped down into their soul, they remain open to other possibilities.
When the soul has adopted an idea, it is so much harder for it to change – you are not so open to receive another idea that is in contrast.

Jesus told the Pharisees they had no place in them for his word. They were not open to receive his words or understand them, why? In their hearts they had already rejected him.

[NickHassan]

Hi Malcolm,
Repentance and baptism and the inner cleansing of the conscience by God allows the Spirit of Grace to be reborn into us and the seed that is planted to die. It God's time if we feed on the word we see Christ being born into us renewing us by a transformation of our mind and heart unto the mind of Christ.

Rom 12.1f
” 1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.”

and Eph 4
“13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

17This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

18Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

19Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20But ye have not so learned Christ;

21If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

22That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”

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