I want answers&#33;&#33;&#33;

Participant

Quote (david @ Sep. 17 2005,19:25)

T8 brought out an interesting point:
“Perhaps you are advocating that we just use 'elohim' in Hebrew? If so, then did the original NT that quotes the OT uses of 'elohim', actually use the word 'elohim' or did they translate them to 'theos' or an Aramaic equivalent?”

Yes, Elijah is advocating that we use the word Elohim instead of God. So your point is worthy of consideration.

Oh you beat me to it. Your post already answers the following post I made. I didn't see it when I started my post.

September 16, 2005 at 11:39 pm#8780

Participant

Quote (Eliyah @ Sep. 17 2005,19:30)

This was prophesied to happen in ( Jer.8:8) and it is exactly so today.

Eliyah C.

Hi Eliyah,

Let me consider your words.

Also, I take it that you are advocating that we return the the Hebrew words 'Yahweh', 'Yehshua', 'Elohim', 'El', etc. And that the Greek and English words we use are wrong and have pagan origins.

September 17, 2005 at 12:04 am#8781

Participant

T8, The original Hebrew words of scriptures are the words that Messiah spoke and read from the Scrolls.

When Yahushua( Yeshua) Messiah spoke to Paul in ( Acts 26:14), remember of Paul in ( Acts 9)?
He spoke in the Hebrew tongue or Language to Paul.

Why didn't Messiah speak to Paul in ALL the other Languages THAT PAUL SPOKE AND KNEW?

Compare all these texts of the New Testament with thee original texts of Hebrew which Messiah QUOTED FROM.

Compare ( Matt.4:4; Luke 4:4) with ( Deut.8:3) concerning the Name YHWH.

Compare ( Matt.4:10) with ( Deut.6:13).

Compare ( Matt.21:42) with ( Psalms 118:23).

Compare ( Mark 7:6) with ( Isa. 29:13).

Compare( Luke 20:37) with ( Exod. 3:4-6).

Compare ( John 6:45) with ( Isa. 54:13).

How many more does people want ?

Eliyah C.

September 17, 2005 at 12:56 am#8784

Participant

Also, people should consider this too.

The Scripture says “” That Messiah NEVER sinned/ ie- transgressed the Law ( 1 John 3:4)or torah.””

If Messiah had used “” other nation's pagan deity titles “”, then He would have violated ( Exod.23:13), but the scriptures say, “” THAT HE( Messiah) NEVER SINNED/ ie- or transgressed the law or torah.””

And I happen to believe that Messiah NEVER sinned or viloated any of YHWH'S Commands.

September 17, 2005 at 1:04 am#8785

Participant

Quote (Eliyah @ Sep. 17 2005,20:04)

Why didn't Messiah speak to Paul in ALL the other Languages THAT PAUL SPOKE AND KNEW?

Yes Jesus spoke Aramaic/Hebrew.

At this stage however, I am not convinced, (but I am open) that the NT was originally penned in Hebrew. Is there proof of this? I remain open to that possibilty of course until I have been shown concrete proof either way.

Consider the book of the Revelation which was written “to the seven churches which are in Asia.” All seven churches are in Greek cities. The Roman province of Asia is today's Turkey. Before the Romans controlled that area, Greek people had lived there for centuries. John received and likely wrote the Revelation while in exile on an island just off the coast of Asia. The people to whom John wrote were Greek. There is no reason why John would have written in any language other than Greek, or is there?

Furthermore, John wrote Jesus' words, “I am Alpha and Omega.” That is Greek is it not? Or was it in reference to the first and last letter of the Hebrew alphabet originally, ('alphabet' is made up of the first 2 Greek letters, I know .

But could Jesus speak Greek while on earth? He certainly lived and ministered in a multilingual culture. This fact is easily seen from the sign Pilate posted on the cross. It was in Greek, Latin, and Hebrew.

Eliyah, I am not arguing against you. I am open minded and must consider all possibilities lest I close the right door.

September 17, 2005 at 1:05 am#8786

Participant

I'm sure he could speak Greek. Couldn't he?

September 17, 2005 at 1:36 am#8787

Participant

If he lived in a multi-lingual society one would assume that he did speak Greek also. If so, it would be interesting to know what word he used for 'God' in Greek, for that would put this discussion to rest.

I gleaned the following from another website, it might help in understanding if he spoke in Greek too.

Jesus traveled to some of the Greek cities in the area. Once near Tyre and Sidon he had a conversation with a Greek lady and healed her daughter. It is not unreasonable to believe that Jesus spoke Greek to her. It appears that the Jews with whom Jesus had contact knew he could speak Greek. They said he would be able to teach the Greeks. Remember their comments:

John 7:35
Where does this man intend to go that we cannot find him? Will he go where our people live scattered among the Greeks, and teach the Greeks?

Again if/when Yeshua spoke in Greek, what word did he use for 'God', in that language?

September 17, 2005 at 2:02 am#8789

NickHassan

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 17 2005,00:39)

Quote (Eliyah @ Sep. 17 2005,19:30)

This was prophesied to happen in ( Jer.8:8) and it is exactly so today.

Eliyah C.

Hi Eliyah,

Let me consider your words.

Also, I take it that you are advocating that we return the the Hebrew words 'Yahweh', 'Yehshua', 'Elohim', 'El', etc. And that the Greek and English words we use are wrong and have pagan origins.

Hi e,
Faith is of the heart and Yahweh knows our hearts. How easy would it be to spread the gospel if you first had to explain the words used are ones no one is familiar with? How many people turn to the Almighty and He responds when they are alone and in desperate straits despite using terms you find offensive but perhaps He does not?

You have said that “El” and “Elohim” are pure terms, but T8 has shown the same words are applied in scripture to false gods and angels. You cannot have it both ways. How can you use words for the Almighty that are also applied to wooden idols or angels and not cause the same problems you worry about? Perhaps you are going beyond the revelation of scripture and into perfectionism and presumption to impute sin?

September 17, 2005 at 2:34 am#8790

Participant

T8,

It was long thought that the basis for such failure of the divine name in our extant manuscripts was the absence of the name in the Greek Septuagint Version (LXX), the first translation of the Hebrew Scriptures which began to be made in the third century B.C.

This thought was based upon the copies of LXX as found in the great manuscripts of the fourth and fifth centuries A.D.: the Vatican No. 1209, the Sinaitic, the Alexandrine, and the Ambrosianus. In these the distinctive name of the Creator was rendered by the Greek words Ku,rioj (ky’ri×os) with or without the definite article and Qeo,j (the×os‘). This namelessness was viewed as an aid to teaching monotheism.

This popular theory has now been flatly disproved by the recently found remains of a papyrus roll of LXX. This contains the second half of the book of Deuteronomy. Not one of these fragments shows an example of Ku,rioj or Qeo,j used instead of the divine name, but in each instance the Tetragrammaton is written in Aramaic characters.

Authorities fix the date for a papyrus writing at the 2d or 1st century B.C. This means about a century or two after the LXX was begun. It proves that the original LXX did contain the divine name wherever it occurred in the Hebrew original.

Considering it a sacrilege to use some substitute as ky’ri×os or the×os’, the scribes inserted the Tetragrammaton (hwhy) at its proper place in the Greek version text.

Did Messiah and his disciples who wrote the Christian Greek Scriptures have copies at hand of the Greek Septuagint with the divine name appearing therein in the form of the Tetragrammaton?

Yes! The Tetragrammaton persisted in copies of LXX for centuries after Messiah and his apostles. About A.D. 128 Aquila’s Greek version had the Tetragrammaton in archaic Hebrew letters. About A.D. 245 Origen produced his famous Hexapla, this being a six-column reproduction of the inspired ancient Scriptures, (1) in their original Hebrew and Aramaic, accompanied by (2) a transliteration into Greek, and the Greek versions by (3) Aquila, (4) Symmachus, (5) the seventy (LXX), and (6) Theodotion. In the second column of the Hexapla, in the transliteration into Greek, the Tetragrammaton was written in Hebrew characters, whereas in columns 3, 4, 5 the Greek versions of Aquila. Symmachus and LXX all represented the Tetragrammaton by the similar Greek characters. Origen, in a statement on Psalm 2:2, said that “in the most faithful manuscripts THE NAME is written in Hebrew characters, that is, not in modern, but in archaic Hebrew.”

A papyrus fragment of that same 3d century A.D., namely, P. Oxyrhynchus vii. 1007, is a fragment of Genesis of the LXX, and it abbreviates the Tetragrammaton by its first letter doubled, a doubled Yod (yy), the initial letter being written in the shape of a z with a horizontal stroke through the middle, the stroke being carried unbroken through both such Yod’s

In the suceeding century Jermome says that ignorant readers of the LXX imagines the Tetragrammaton to be a Greek word and actually pronounced it “Pipi.” In his Prologus Galeatus prefacing the books of Samuel and Malachi he says: “We find the four-lettered name of the Creator (i.e., hwhy) in certain Greek volumes even to this day expressed in the ancient letters.”

And in his 25th letter to Marcella, written at Rome, A.D. 384, he treats of the ten names of the Creator and says: “The ninth [name of Yah] is a tetragrammaton, which they considered avnecfw,nhton [an×ek×pho’ne×ton], that is, unspeakable, which is written with these letters, Iod, He, Vau, He. Which certain ignorant ones, because of the similarity of the characters, when they would find them in Greek books, were accustomed to pronounce Pi Pi.”

Thus down to the time of Jerome, the translator who produced the Latin Vulgate, there were Greek manuscripts of the ancient Hebrew Scriptures which still contained the divine name in its four Hebrew characters.

One thing is now certain. Whether Yahushua( Yeshua) and his disciples read the Scriptures in their Hebrew (Aramaic) original or in the Greek Septuagint Version, they would come across the divine name in its Tetragrammaton form.

Did Messiah follow the traditional Jewish custom of the day and read A×do×nai’ at such places out of fear of profaning the name and violating the Third Commandment (Exodus 20:7)?

In the synagogue at Nazareth, when he rose and accepted the book of Isaiah and read those verses of Isaiah (61:1, 2) where the Tetragrammaton occurs twice, did he refuse to pronounce the divine name correctly?

Not if Yahushua followed his usual disregard for the unscriptural traditions followed by the Jewish scribes. Matthew 7:29 tells us: “He was teaching them as a person having authority, and not as their scribes.” In the hearing of his faithful apostles Jesus prayed to Jehovah God, saying: “I HAVE MADE YOUR NAME MANIFEST to the men you gave me out of the world….I HAVE MADE YOUR NAME KNOWN TO THEM AND WILL MAKE IT KNOWN.” (John 17:6, 26) The Jewish Talmud accuses Jesus of having performed his miracles by the pronouncing of the divine name; which is an indirect admission on the part of his enemies that he did use the name.

The question now before us is: Did Yahushua's inspired disciples use the divine name in their writings? That is, Did Yah's name appear in the original writings of the Christian Greek Scriptures?

We have basis for answering Yes. In recent years some have claimed that Matthew’s gospel account was at first written in Hebrew rather than in its kindred language, the Aramaic. It is contended that Matthew and the early Christians produced this account to become the last book of the canon of the Hebrew Scriptures as, till then, the canon of the Christian Greek Scriptures had not been contemplated.

There is evidence that various recensions of the Hebrew and Aramaic versions of Matthew’s account persisted for centuries among the early Jewish Christian communities of Palestine and Syria. Early writers, such as Pa’pias, Hegesippus, Jus’tin Martyr, Ta’tian, Sym’ma×chus, I×re×nae’us, Panteanus, Clem’ent of Alexandria, Or’i×gen, Pam’phi×lus, Eu×se’bi×us, Ep×i×pha’ni×us and Je×rome’, give evidence that they either possessed or had access to Hebrew and Aramaic writings of Matthew. Je×rome, of the 4th and 5th centuries A.D., had this to say:”Matthew, who is also Levi, and who from a publican came to be an Aposlte, first of all the Evangelists, composed a Gospel of Christ in Judaea in the Hebrew language and characters, for the benefit of those of the circumcision who had believed. Who translated it into Greek is not sufficiently ascertained.

Furthermore, the Hebrew itself is preserved to this day in the library at Caesarea which the martyr Pamphilus so diligently collected ; in which it is to be remarked that, wherever the Evangelist makes use of the testimonies of the old Scripture, he does not follow the authority of the seventy translators, but of the Hebrew.”¾Catal. Script. Eccl.

Matthew made more than a hundred quotations from the inspired Hebrew Scriptures. So where these quotations included the divine name, he would be obliged faithfully to include the Tetragrammaton in his Hebrew gospel account. His Hebrew account would correspond closely with the Hebrew version of the 19th century by F. Delitzsch, in which Matthew contains the name “Jehovah” eighteen times.

It is now believed Matthew himself translated his gospel account into the Greek. If he did, then he had available copies of the LXX containing the divine name. But, though Matthew preferred to quote direct from the Hebrew Scriptures rather than from the LXX, he could follow the LXX practice and incorporate the divine name at its proper place in the Greek text.

But all the writers of the Christian Greek Scriptures quoted from the Hebrew Scriptures or from the LXX at verses where the Name appears, and they could follow the style th
en true of copies of the LXX by using the Tetragrammaton in their Greek writings.

The evidence is, therefore, that the original text of the Christian Greek Scriptures has been tampered with, the same as the text of the LXX has been. And, at least from the 3d century A.D. onward, the divine name in Tetragrammaton form has been eliminated from the text by copyist who did not understand or appreciate the divine name or who developed and aversion to it, possibly under the influence of anti-Semitism. In place of it they substituted the words ky’ri×os (usually translated “the Lord”) and the×os’, meaning “God.”

RESTORING THE NAME: What is the modern translator to do? Is he justified, yes, authorized, to enter the divine name into a translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures? Every Greek reader must confess that in the LXX the Greek words ky’ri××os and the×os’ have been used to crowd out the distinctive name of the Supreme Creator.

Every comprehensive Greek-English dictionary states that these two Greek words have been used as equivalents of the divine name. Hence the modern translator is warranted in using the divine name as an equivalent of those two Greek words, that is, at places where Matthew, etc., quote verses, passages and expressions from the Hebrew Scriptures or from the LXX where the divine name occurs.

From the 14th century A.D. forward, translations of parts or of all the Christian Greek Scriptures have been made into the ancient classical Hebrew. The Shem Tob version of Matthew into Hebrew was made about A.D. 1385. When coming upon quotations from the Hebrew Scriptures where the Name appeared, the translators into Hebrew had no other recourse than to render Ky’ri×os or the×os’ back into its original Tetragrammaton form “hwhy”( read right to left).

Thus in that early Shem Tob version of Matthew the Tetragrammaton occurs 16 times. All together, the appearances of the sacred Tetragrammaton in the 19 Hebrew versions to which we have had access total up to 307 distinct occurrences. These have thus restored the divine name to the inspired Christian Scriptures.

How is a modern translator to know or determine when to render the Greek words Ku,rioj and qeo,j into the divine name in his version? By determining where the inspired Christian writers have quoted from the Hebrew Scriptures. Then he must refer back to the original to locate whether the divine name appears there. This way he can determine the identity to give to ky’ri×os and the×os’ and he can then clothe them with the personality and name of YHWH.

The ( N.W.T.= New World Translation) in its Appendix will also confirm most of what I have written here.

Thee original Name of the Creator was used in the Early LXX, but it was later replaced with the titles of “” ky'ri-os ” and “the-x-os ” of the later copies of the LXX.

David also knows this to be true, because it is mentioned in detail in the Appendix of the ( N.W.T.).

The Creator said that His Name YHWH=Yah is ” Jealous “, and that He is a ” Jealous ” Elohim( Exod.34:14), and the ONLY way to distinguish HIM( Yah) from other false Deities, is to KNOW HIS TRUE NAME.

I have given people on here enough true scriptures concerning the importance of His true Name to line the walls in their living rooms, which I think that some on here have not fully investigated all the scriptures given in my Article concerning His Name.

Eliyah C.

September 17, 2005 at 3:27 am#8791

Participant

As I said Nick,

“”The Creator said that His Name YHWH=Yah is ” Jealous “, and that He is a ” Jealous ” El “( Exod.34:14), and the ONLY way to distinguish HIM( Yah) from other false Deities, is to KNOW HIS TRUE NAME.

Remember that “” Molech “” was a false deity?

How did they KNOW he was a false deity? By his name.

What about “” Chemosh “”? By his name.

Isn't it strange to people in the religious world that the ” names of all these pagan deities, and even satan too ” was correctly transliterated into the English translations, but the TRUE Creator's NAME was not??

Well, satan the devil is called a ” father ” in ( John 8:44) and he is called a “” god “” in ( 2 Cor.4:4), and he is the ” lord ” of deception( Rev.12:9).

The ONLY way to distinguish between the “” TWO FATHERS “”( John 8:44) and ( John 17:11) is to KNOW and USE the true Sacred FATHER'S true Name=YAH.

It is satan the devil who accepts such worship in pagan title name idol images deities( Rev.9:20; Rev.13:3-4. 8) through deception( Rev.12:9).

YHWH will not give His honar to pagan images, and He will not accept such worship in those pagan title name images either and He plainly says so in the scriptures.

September 17, 2005 at 3:55 am#8792

Participant

Yes Elijah, i agree with most everything I skimmed through as I was reading your post above.

And while what you said was interesting, I didn't see any answer to Nicks thoughts though.

I think I know what your responce would be, but I'd at least like to see you say it.

September 17, 2005 at 4:49 am#8793

Participant

David, I have ALREADY answered that in previous posts.

Do I have to re-peat it?
Ok,

While it is true that that LATER the Hebrew titles of ” El and Elohim ” were ADOPTED by other pagan nations and applied by them to their deities, however, these titles of “El and Elohim ” WERE pure original titles applied ONLY to YHWH( See Moses writings of Gen.) in the beginning by Moses.

However, the Hebrew word noun title name of ” gawd=guwd ” = the English word ” god = gad ” was and is applied exclusively to the Babylonian deity called ” Baal Gad “( Isa.65:11 ,The Book of Joshua, Judges, and Kings).

There is a DIFFERENCE, and everyone knows it, but it seems that either people don't want to admit they have been wrong, or they seem to do as the Proverb of whatever seems right in their on eyes and mind.

September 17, 2005 at 5:03 am#8794

Participant

Elijah said:
“However, the Hebrew word noun title name of ” gawd=guwd ” = the English word ” god = gad ” was and is applied exclusively to the Babylonian deity called ” Baal Gad “( Isa.65:11 ,The Book of Joshua, Judges, and Kings).”

In English please.

I thought Gad was a euphemism for god. I didn't know god = gad. I don't remember seeing that in the dictionaries.

September 17, 2005 at 5:07 am#8795

Participant

Go back and read the few lasts posts in the Baal gad Topic for the answer, I'm tired of having to hop skoch to every topic and repeating myself in every topic David.

September 17, 2005 at 5:21 am#8796

Participant

A wise person once said:
If you don't want to repeat yourself, then you will have to say things that make sence.

September 17, 2005 at 6:09 am#8797

http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?

Participant

David, go look up these Hebrew word “” gawd” and ” guwd “numbers 1409, 1464

You may have to ” type in the words and or Numbers ” in the Strongs Exaustive Concordance, and also LISTEN TO THE PRONOUNCIATION OF THESE WORDS at this place.

Strong's Number: 01409 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
dg from (01464) (in the sense of distributing)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Gad TWOT – 313d
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
gawd Noun Masculine

Or http://www.crosswalk.com

September 17, 2005 at 7:58 am#8798

http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?

Participant

Please Type in the Number “” 1409 “” and LISTEN TO THE PRONOUNCIATION of the word “”

Quote

gawd=Strongs Hebrew number 1409 used in ( Isa.65:11)= gad of that Babylonian deity.

Be honest with yourself, does this word not SOUND IN PRONOUNCIATION exactly like the English ” G-D “??

September 17, 2005 at 6:18 pm#8802

Participant

Brandon wrote in another thread:
“wow, that's amazing, eliyah. thanks. i heard it and yes it does. that goes against the pronunciation instruction i saw here http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=gad”

In that dictionary the only pronunciation of “gad” is with the soft “a” sound.

But even if “gad” was prounced like “god,” what would that prove? Would it prove that gad=god as you keep saying?
They would be homynyms, not synonyms.

September 17, 2005 at 11:20 pm#8805