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Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 04 2009,04:36) Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
Matthew 15:10-12
Um about that scripture, I don't think it has anything to do with food. It was to my understanding that what Jesus said in that scripture had to do with what people think and take into their minds versus what they say/speak out loud.Hi B,
BD is is right in that it is also true as written.
Col 2.20f also shows that such earthly restrictions are for the temporal and earthly but our minds are on what pertains to eternity.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 04 2009,04:52) Hi BD,
You are governed by external laws of many kinds in Islam and cannot know the freedom the Spirit brings.
Nick,Can you drink the blood of animals?
Can you worship Idols?Hi BD,
You may live by fear of condenmnation but we are free.
And neither should you worship other gods.
The God of Israel is not your GodQuote (Beloved @ Nov. 04 2009,05:01) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 04 2009,04:36) Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
Matthew 15:10-12
Um about that scripture, I don't think it has anything to do with food. It was to my understanding that what Jesus said in that scripture had to do with what people think and take into their minds versus what they say/speak out loud.
You can take that meaning of yours as well it would still mean the same thing for instance let's assume you take in too much gossip to the point it causes you to slander then that would certainly let you understand that Gossip may lead to slander or what if you drink alcohol but without moderation and in excess it causes you to become violent or mean then that would certainly let you know that alcohol could lead to you being mean or violent, but the fact is it is the result that edifies or defiles a man.So in this sense nothing is unclean in and of itself.
When God created he declared all His creation good, in-fact the very first time God said something was not good was when God said “It is not good for man to be alone”
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 04 2009,06:45) Hi BD,
You may live by fear of condenmnation but we are free.
And neither should you worship other gods.
The God of Israel is not your God
You didn't answer my questions and the reason is you would have to admit that you are not allowed to fornicate by LAW of the God of Israel the very same God I worship.No Christian can fornicate by choice. No Christian can drink blood and be held without guilt.
Hi BD,
We have an advocate with the Father by the name of Jesus should our ignorance cause us to stumble in any way.
You have no such helper in Islam.Hi Beloved:
Whatever we do as born again Christians, we do out of love for God and for humanity. All of God's principles for living are for our benefit, and it is important to take care of our body. As you say, you stopped eating sweets, and I am also working on this because I know that they are not good for my health. Making a practice of eating foods that God has designated as unclean also is not good for our health.
As for fasting, this is the scripture that answers the issue of fasting for me:
Quote Isa 58:1 ¶ Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins. Isa 58:2 Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God.
Isa 58:3 Wherefore have we fasted, [say they], and thou seest not? [wherefore] have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge? Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure, and exact all your labours.
Isa 58:4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as [ye do this] day, to make your voice to be heard on high.
Isa 58:5 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? [is it] to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes [under him]? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD?
Isa 58:6 ¶ [Is] not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?
Isa 58:7 [Is it] not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?
Isa 58:8 Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward.
Isa 58:9 Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I [am]. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity;
Isa 58:10 And [if] thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness [be] as the noonday:
Isa 58:11 And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.
Isa 58:12 And [they that shall be] of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.
Isa 58:13 ¶ If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, [from] doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking [thine own] words:
Isa 58:14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken [it].
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 04 2009,07:01) Hi BD,
We have an advocate with the Father by the name of Jesus should our ignorance cause us to stumble in any way.
You have no such helper in Islam.
Who is a better helper than God Almighty Himself?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 03 2009,08:30) Hi CON,
We do not search for new external laws when we are given freedom in the Spirit.
You either follow the Spirit or the external laws.
I answered the question “beloved” asked and only gave my personal opinion. I made no case out of it, as you are doing now.I follow the Spirit and his commandments.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 03 2009,08:42) Hi CON,
Legal dietary restrictions are nothing to do with fasting which is restricted eating of all things for a period of time.
I hope you will grasp the freedom you inherit in Christ and do not continue to search for laws to give you comfort.
Conjecture on your part.I answered the question “beloved” asked and only gave my personal opinion. I made no case out of it, as you are doing now.
And I asked and showed “beloved” the scriptures dealing with fasting as she asked. Nothing more or less.
Again your trying to make a case out of nothing.
I grasp the freedom in Christ.
Quote (georg @ Nov. 03 2009,08:50) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 04 2009,03:42) Hi CON,
Legal dietary restrictions are nothing to do with fasting which is restricted eating of all things for a period of time.
I hope you will grasp the freedom you inherit in Christ and do not continue to search for laws to give you comfort.
On top of that if you want to keep the Old Testament Law in Galatians it says that you have to keep the whole Law. You have to become like the Jewish People. That CON is not easy to do, if you realize that I have no idea.
Irene
I believe you if you say you have no idea.Beloved
Here is what Paul said on the subject.
Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
Rom 14:14 ¶ I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Rom 14:15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
Rom 14:16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Rom 14:18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
Rom 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
Rom 14:20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
Rom 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
Rom 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
I think that says it all.
Georg
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 03 2009,09:33) Hi CON,
Romans 14 discusses these things.
The dietary matters were given to carnal men helping them work towards sanctification.
But is you are of the Spirit is it now the Spirit that sanctifies and we cannot do anything useful to help the work of God's Spirit but can only obstruct.
So Noah was “Carnal”? Abraham, Daniel, David, Ezekiel, Job, Moses?Genesis 1:29 NIV. “Then God said, 'I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.”
Immediately after the flood, when little if any vegetation remained, what did God say about diet?
Genesis 9:2-4, TLB. “All wild animals and birds and fish will be afraid of you, God told him; 'for I have placed them in your power, and they are yours to use for food, in addition to grain and vegetables. But never eat animals unless their life-blood has been drained off.”
The people were to be careful about their food and make a distinction between what was good for them and what wasn't.
Leviticus 11:47, NIV. “You must distinguish between the unclean and the clean, between living creatures that may be eaten and those that may not be eaten.” (See Leviticus 11 for further details).
The distinction between the clean and unclean was not just a Jewish prohibition. It was in effect before Abraham, the first Jew.
Genesis 7:1,2, NIV. “The Lord then said to Noah, 'Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation. Take with you seven of every kind of clean animal, a mate and its mate, and two of every kind of unclean animal, a mate and its mate'”
This distinction between the clean and unclean will continue to the end of time.
Isaiah 66:15,17 NIV. “See, the Lord is coming with fire, and His chariots are like a whirlwind; He will bring down His anger with fury, and His rebuke with flames of fire. Those who consecrate and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following the one in the midst of those who eat the flesh of pigs and rats and other abominable things, they will meet their end together, declares the Lord.”
What example did Daniel set in the importance of proper diet?
Daniel 1:8, NIV. “But Daniel resolved not to defile himself with the royal food and wine, and he asked the chief official for permission not to defile himself this way.”
What did he eat instead?
Daniel 1:12, NIV. “Please test your servants for ten days: Give us nothing but vegetables to eat and water to drink.”
Why should we exercise self-control in our dietary habits?
I Corinthians 10:31, TLB. “It is because you must do everything for the glory of God, even your eating and drinking.”
“Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats,
which God had created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. 1 Timothy 4:3-5Food is “sanctified by the word of God”, which means that there are certain foods that are “set apart” by the Word God for the household of Faith, which means some foods are ok, while others are forbidden.
The Word of God determines what is fit for food, and what is not.
Most realize the “New Testament” wasn't written until years after Jesus had ascended to the Father, therefore the Word of God specifically refers to the Torah (five books of Moshe) and/or Tanakh (Torah Prophets Writings).
Paul writes to Timothy to make sure that the Assembly is taught about the importance of eating food “sanctified by the Word of God”, and through prayer, which means both.
According to Jesus, some religious people in his day were making a very big deal out of things that go into the mouth, and forgetting about sanctifying their actions according to the Word of God.
“Wherefore, you come out from among them, and be separate from them says God; and don’t touch the unclean thing, and I will receive you; And will be to you a Father, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says God the Almighty.” 2 Corinthians 6:17
A textbook could be written from this one verse, especially with Paul's statement, “don't touch the unclean thing”.
This is a message that is found throughout Scripture, for a small sample see Leviticus 5:2; 7:21; 11:8, 31; Deut 14:8; Isaiah 52:11; Lam 4:15; Haggai 2:13.
Then Paul quotes, “and will be to you a Father”, which is a theme Jesus repeated many, many times over!
Jesus teaches us that his Father, God is calling upon us, to accept Him as our Heavenly Father.
But this Fatherhood relationship which God desires for His people has it's origin in many places within the Tanakh.
Quote (georg @ Nov. 03 2009,22:07) Beloved Here is what Paul said on the subject.
Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
Rom 14:14 ¶ I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Rom 14:15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
Rom 14:16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Rom 14:18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
Rom 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
Rom 14:20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
Rom 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
Rom 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
I think that says it all.
Georg
Romans 14:3, “Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.”
Romans 14:14, “I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.”
Romans 14:20, “For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.”Verses 3-6 in Romans 14 discuss those who eat certain things as opposed to those who do not.
The Word doesn't say who is right and who is wrong here, instead it speaks on not passing judgment on others.
In other words, let God be the judge. (verses 4, 10-12) Verse 14 and 20 are NOT referring to “UNCLEAN FOODS as is described in Leviticus 11 or Deuteronomy 14.
It is openly speaking of food that is 'OFFERED TO IDOLS' instead.
Some Christians would have you believe otherwise so as to “ok” sin, and in turn destroy not only your temple, but your testimony as well.
These foods were “CEREMONIALLY UNCLEAN” period!.
It was not speaking of clean and unclean by nature in any way shape or form.
The actual point of the discussion here in Romans 14 is that no food is unclean or impure simply because some non-believer offered it up to an idol.
An idol is “nothing in the world” 1Cor 8:4.
Fact here is, if a person is bothered in his conscience because he is eating such foods, then he or she should simply not eat that food.
PLUS, if that which is “truly” clean, but is seen as “unclean” by your brother because of how the food has been “offered to idols,” then we as Christians should abstain from eating those foods so as to not cause our brother to be offended.
Simple fact is, the Creator chooses that which is clean and unclean, NOT mankind and his useless idols.
It appears that some Christians are allowing their idol to preach unto to church at large.
ONLY their idol is saying it's ok to eat unclean foods.
Or their idol is saying it's not ok to eat clean meat.
They totally miss the fact that it's really “CLEAN” foods that are being offered to the idols.
They only “appear” unclean by those who BELIEVE in the power of idols.
Hi CON,
You imagine sin involving the less fastidious?
There is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.God is interested in training us in ways of love so these matters are just distractions.
If you have such worries and they upset your conscience why are you trying to upset others?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 03 2009,22:25) Hi CON,
You imagine sin involving the less fastidious?
There is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.God is interested in training us in ways of love so these matters are just distractions.
If you have such worries and they upset your conscience why are you trying to upset others?
Posting a reply to scriptures is upsetting others? I responded to the post georg put up.I posted something un-loving? Or something you just didn't care for?
Are these post for everyone or is it all about you?
Or are just trying to start something? I hope not.
My conscience is clear and have no worries, but thank you for asking.
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