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Quote (truebelief4u @ Mar. 21 2006,15:17) David……Is 1:18 is a name? How do you figure that? 
The topic is 1st John 5:7….a verse which wasn't even in the text until the 16th century. This verse, along with Matthew 28:19 are the primary verses the “trinitarians” attempt to use to support their defense of the “trinity.” The problem is, BOTH of these verses are deliberate additions to the text, inserted by the Roman Church, in order to provide support for their “trinity” doctrine….NEITHER verse is authentic original text material (and the trinitarian wording of Matthew 28:19 is not found in any manuscript prior to the 4th century). See:
http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/matt2819-willis.htm
http://english.sdaglobal.org/research/mt2819.htmThe Roman Church had a great propensity to simply “change the text” to suit themselves, and the Protestants adopted most of these without examination or question when the Catholic/Protestant schism came along in the 15th-17th centuries……most “Protestants” haven't got a clue their doctrines are nearly all direct implants from the Roman Church.
Good Stuff Truebelief4uYes, i know the spuriousness of this verse.
Quote David……Is 1:18 is a name? How do you figure that?
truebelief4u, you asked: 'What does Is 1:18 got to do with any of this?'
I had been mentioning “Is 1:18” a lot, as that is a member's name and I was referring to him. I thought you were confused about that. Now I'm confused as to what you said.
No one had mentioned Is 1:18 the scripture, but i had repeatedly said: “Is 1:18….” so I thought you were confused. SorryQuote (david @ Mar. 22 2006,03:46) Yes, i know the spuriousness of this verse. Quote David……Is 1:18 is a name? How do you figure that?
truebelief4u, you asked: 'What does Is 1:18 got to do with any of this?'
I had been mentioning “Is 1:18” a lot, as that is a member's name and I was referring to him. I thought you were confused about that. Now I'm confused as to what you said.
No one had mentioned Is 1:18 the scripture, but i had repeatedly said: “Is 1:18….” so I thought you were confused. Sorry
Oh….Is 1:18 is a member's name…..just call me dumbo for not noticing that! Sorry for the confusion…my apologies.OK…back to 1st John 5:7 (and the other spurious verses such as Matthew 28:19)….in the face of the Roman Church's own admission the “trinity” is purely an invention of the 3rd/4th century Roman Church, and that they changed the text to reflect their “new doctrine,” and in the face of the historical fact that no one, neither Hebrew, nor early Christian, ever understood God to be a “trinity” prior to the doctrine's fabrication by the Roman Church, can we dispense with the “trinity,” and finally relegate it to the trashcan of “false doctrine?”
I am glad you have all the answers t8. That way there is no mysteriousness of God left to argue or talk about. If man can be three(body, soul, and spirit), yet still one, why can't God? Is God not allowed to be both three and one? God in all his omnipotence can't possibly pull that off could he t8? If ya answered no to any of those questions then i guess we don't believe in the same God.
Remember that God is not constrained by 'bad math', time or anything. He is self-existant, he answers to noone. I mean the whole world could say that 2+2=5, but it wouldn't take away from the truth that 2+2=4.
Why would you use Christ as an example to live your life if you don't believe he is God?
John 1:
15But as the One Who called you is holy, you yourselves also be holy in all your conduct and manner of living.16For it is written, You shall be holy, for I am holy
God wants us to follow him and want to be more like him. Be holy as He is Holy. Yet we are commanded to follow after Christ, he is our example. Hence why we are called christians, meaning little Christ.
So if he isn't Dietythen why do you follow Him and His teachings?And if He is a god why do you follow after other gods?
Quote John 1:
15But as the One Who called you is holy, you yourselves also be holy in all your conduct and manner of living.
16For it is written, You shall be holy, for I am holyThis is actually 1 Peter chapter 1, not John 1, just for clarification.
Jehovah, our heavenly Father, wants people to be like him–holy, spiritually clean.
LEVITICUS 11:44
“For I am Jehovah YOUR God; and YOU must sanctify yourselves and YOU must prove yourselves holy, because I am holy. So YOU must not make YOUR souls unclean by any swarming creature that moves upon the earth.”
LEVITICUS 19:2
““Speak to the entire assembly of the sons of Israel, and you must say to them, ‘YOU should prove yourselves holy, because I Jehovah YOUR God am holy.”
LEVITICUS 20:26
“And YOU must prove yourselves holy to me, because I Jehovah am holy; and I am proceeding to divide YOU off from the peoples to become mine.”
DEUTERONOMY 23:14
“For Jehovah your God is walking about within your camp to deliver you and to abandon your enemies to you; and your camp must prove to be holy, that he may see nothing indecent in you and certainly turn away from accompanying you.”Jesus takes the lead in following Jehovah HIS GOD. We are to follow Jesus example because he imitates his Father, as should we, and Jesus provides many real life examples of ways we can do this, as he lived as a man in the world and faced what we face.
Remember, we are also told to imitate Paul.
“Become imitators of me, even as I am of Christ.” (1 Corinthians 11:1)
The reason we could imitate Paul, is because he imitated Jesus. And the reason we are to imitate Jesus is because he represented his Father so well.We are also told to be imitators of God.
EPHESIANS 5:1
“Therefore, become imitators of God, as beloved children,”Quote So if he isn't Dietythen why do you follow Him and His teachings? JOHN 7:16
“Jesus, in turn, answered them and said: “What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me.”And that would be his Father, that sent him. Jesus himself explains that they are not his teachings, but his Fathers.
Quote (truebelief4u @ Mar. 22 2006,15:49) Quote (david @ Mar. 22 2006,03:46) Yes, i know the spuriousness of this verse. Quote David……Is 1:18 is a name? How do you figure that?
truebelief4u, you asked: 'What does Is 1:18 got to do with any of this?'
I had been mentioning “Is 1:18” a lot, as that is a member's name and I was referring to him. I thought you were confused about that. Now I'm confused as to what you said.
No one had mentioned Is 1:18 the scripture, but i had repeatedly said: “Is 1:18….” so I thought you were confused. Sorry
Oh….Is 1:18 is a member's name…..just call me dumbo for not noticing that! Sorry for the confusion…my apologies.OK…back to 1st John 5:7 (and the other spurious verses such as Matthew 28:19)….in the face of the Roman Church's own admission the “trinity” is purely an invention of the 3rd/4th century Roman Church, and that they changed the text to reflect their “new doctrine,” and in the face of the historical fact that no one, neither Hebrew, nor early Christian, ever understood God to be a “trinity” prior to the doctrine's fabrication by the Roman Church, can we dispense with the “trinity,” and finally relegate it to the trashcan of “false doctrine?”
amenRegarding Matt 28:19 whether you want to believe it belongs in the Bible or not, it still doesn't prove a trinity of persons, it merely tells you that the NAME (singular) not names of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ. The name of the whole family of God is Jesus Christ also, the Son of the Father was given the name of His Father, that is not too unusual to name your first born son after the father….
It doesn't make 3 persons in the trinity of God, it just shows you that God is at work in 3 major roles to express Himself.
As Father – God above all – seen of old vieled in a pillar of fire, then manifest in flesh in His only begotten Son. And now in a many membered body by the baptism of the Holy Spirit.The same God all the time. Same person, revealed in many forms. Yet only one Spirit, only One person – God.
Hmmm,
That sounds like oneness heresy and modalism but perhaps I have misunderstood. The name of God has never been written as Jesus Christ. Did Jesus Christ come in the flesh or God Himself, his Father? Was Jesus never a true son of God but always part of God as Spirit?Was Christ anointed by the Spirit as scripture says in Acts 10 or was he already that Spirit?
As Peter said I believe;
“You are the Christ, the Son of the living God”Quote (david @ Mar. 22 2006,21:14)
When you see all this discussion around 1 John 5:7, not actually being in the original scriptures, doesn't it make you wonder, what else has been added, or taken away? For example, the protestants say the Catholics added the Apocrypha, the Catholics say the protestants took them away. The Mormons have a completely different text and so do the Jehovah Witnesses. Well, it sure makes you study so that you know what it is that you believe in, and are able to answer, when able.
My daughter told me her Pastor told her that the Apocrypha was added, is this true? Quess I'm getting off topic if, you could point me to where I could find the answers, that would be great.Hi Sandra,
It is good to do an internet study on the development of the canon. For example for long periods of time Revelation was not accepted as also were others rejected. Scripture was chosen from all the books, which included the Apocrypha.Hi Nick
No definately not modalist or oneness as in pentecostal oneness.
I agree Jesus was the one annointed with God.
If you look at my other postings you will see I am not modalist.
There is one God, and one Son of God. Father and Son.Quote (sandra @ Mar. 31 2006,00:28) This is absolutely facinating, Why was the Book of Revelation almost not considered Canon?
Hi Sandra,
The personal opinion it would seem by whoever was in charge at the time. It does upset some people as does all scripture at times.
You will find a few sites to look through if you do a search for “Development of the canon of the new testament”Quote (malcolm ferris @ Mar. 31 2006,01:11) Hi Nick
No definately not modalist or oneness as in pentecostal oneness.
I agree Jesus was the one annointed with God.
If you look at my other postings you will see I am not modalist.
There is one God, and one Son of God. Father and Son.
Hi Malcolm,
If Jesus was anointed by God with the Holy Spirit then he can neither be that God or the Holy Spirit.
He is not just flesh either as some would claim saying he is the flesh aspect of God.
He is Son of Man as he was conceived in Mary.
He came in the flesh so he was, before he partook of flesh and came when sent by God from heaven.
Like us he is body, soul and spirit, a vessel for God as Spirit.
He died like we do with his spirit, the breath of God and not the Spirit of God, returning to God.
His frail damaged natural body was buried.
But the Holy Spirit lived in him and he visited those other souls alive in in Sheol while awaiting his resurrection into that old body.
He received a new heavenly body after his resurrection and during his ascension into heaven.
The Spirit of God had also stayed with him to raise him from death to life.
We can follow him.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 31 2006,08:49) Quote (sandra @ Mar. 31 2006,00:28) This is absolutely facinating, Why was the Book of Revelation almost not considered Canon?
Hi Sandra,
The personal opinion it would seem by whoever was in charge at the time. It does upset some people as does all scripture at times.
You will find a few sites to look through if you do a search for “Development of the canon of the new testament”
Yes….and you know what is really sad here? The Bible text (and books) was really “canonized” on a more or less hit & miss basis, decided upon by the Roman Church (and later modified by the Protestants). There are dozens of “other books,” and other “versions,” that would appear to have just as much right to canonization (as if man could ever decide WHICH to keep in the first place)….why include some, but not others? Ask the Roman Church! Their reasoning is really something to behold, and amounts to; “We did it that way because we felt like it.” Which is about the same response you get when they are asked “Why did you alter the texts?” Their answer basically is the same…we felt like it, and we have the authority to do that! Dontcha just love the Roman Church?Quote (malcolm ferris @ Mar. 30 2006,23:38) Regarding Matt 28:19 whether you want to believe it belongs in the Bible or not, it still doesn't prove a trinity of persons, it merely tells you that the NAME (singular) not names of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ. The name of the whole family of God is Jesus Christ also, the Son of the Father was given the name of His Father, that is not too unusual to name your first born son after the father….
It doesn't make 3 persons in the trinity of God, it just shows you that God is at work in 3 major roles to express Himself.
As Father – God above all – seen of old vieled in a pillar of fire, then manifest in flesh in His only begotten Son. And now in a many membered body by the baptism of the Holy Spirit.The same God all the time. Same person, revealed in many forms. Yet only one Spirit, only One person – God.
Are you a Oneness Believer?
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