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Hi E and FYI,
You condemn and vilify others who love truth?Is that not a virtue in itself or are you alone in your righteousness?
“There is no condemnation for them who are in Christ Jesus”
We prefer to face the judge in His good time and your opinions on our morals are as relevant as last week's weather reports.
Nick, E, and FYI –
Man – you guys are hitting the wall that is built on theologies. There is so much grandstanding occurring that we are forgetting the most important things – we are to follow Him in all possible ways.
I agree with Nick about most of everything I've read so far, and I can't understand why what he has written would anger anyone.
Every blasphemy spoken of the Son will be forgiven – so if we disagree – and we've stated our opinion – what good comes from judgmental insult contests? We can choose to be kinder – more patient – and most importantly – loving towards each other.
Everyone seems to feel offended if someone disagrees with them. We are 2,000 years (or so) from the birth of Christ… we have endured many problems created by the deceit of men… the very fact that we can all agree that Jesus is the Way is almost a miracle.
btw – last week's weather reports were scary for me – Florida here – hurricane lane –
Quote (Christofer @ July 12 2005,18:06) Nick, E, and FYI – Man – you guys are hitting the wall that is built on theologies. There is so much grandstanding occurring that we are forgetting the most important things – we are to follow Him in all possible ways.
I agree with Nick about most of everything I've read so far, and I can't understand why what he has written would anger anyone.
Every blasphemy spoken of the Son will be forgiven – so if we disagree – and we've stated our opinion – what good comes from judgmental insult contests? We can choose to be kinder – more patient – and most importantly – loving towards each other.
Everyone seems to feel offended if someone disagrees with them. We are 2,000 years (or so) from the birth of Christ… we have endured many problems created by the deceit of men… the very fact that we can all agree that Jesus is the Way is almost a miracle.
btw – last week's weather reports were scary for me – Florida here – hurricane lane –
have you read everything that Nick has written Chris? if you had, you would find him standing in judgment over the souls and minds on men he does not know…. and this is wrong…. am I to stand by and say nothing about his sin? Does the fact that he is an Admin here mean he is above criticism? I realize that you agree with him on issues like his nontrinitarianism, but in this instance, thats not the point… its not matters of doctrine that I am concerned with, its his hateful attitude towards others when they do not agree with him on his anti-trinitarianism….and its simply not true that every sin but the sin against the holy spirit will be forgiven, for persons who fail to repent, who sins are not covered by the blood of Christ, their sins will never be forgiven and they will spend an eternity in torment becasue of this fact…. now I am not saying that Nick's slanderous remarks against these godly men are worthy of hell… no… thats God's job… in fact.. it is God the Son who will be standing in judgment…. however, the Bible is clear that such actions as Nick's are not right and when this sinful activity occurs, its up to other's to point it out, for his own good…
1 John 2:9-11 ESV Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. (10) Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling. (11) But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
So I agree totally with you concerning your saying “what good comes from judgmental insult contests? We can choose to be kinder – more patient – and most importantly – loving towards each other.” Thats exactly what I am pointing out to Nick. So don't let the fact that you agree with Nick on certain theological issues cause you to point out what you take to be my wrongs in this situation, without also pointing out the fact that it was Nick's harsh words towards the writers of Westminster that cuased this little situation in the first place.
The fact is Chris, what you are doing right now, in counseling us is in fact no more than I was doing to begin with. Whenever someone tries to step in and say something like you are, you inevitably start doing the very things you are being critical of in another. You see, if it is the case that, as you say “Every blasphemy spoken of the Son will be forgiven” then why bother pointing out what you take to be problems in my and Nick's discussion?
Its becasue you care about what is said, and how it is said, and thats been my point all along. We want to do the loving thing, sure… but the question is… what exactly is the the loving thing, is the question. So I ask you…. is ignoring the things he said about the states of other's souls the loving thing in this case? No, biblically is not. So just as you felt compelled to speak up here, so to was I.Where you are wrong is in thinking that this problem is due to “Everyone seems to feel offended if someone disagrees with them.” If you had read the exchange you would have probably noted that I said
you (Nick) said “Are these bemused theologians your true masters?”
Now you are getting it Nick! Way to go! YES! Exactly right! I always follow theologians I consider to be bemused, in fact, I was thinking of following you next.At this point, the primary reason for responding to you is that you do continue to provide excellent examples of informal fallacies… although it is a little sad that we can’t get beyond these very basic issues when it comes to clear thinking…. For your ad hominem argument, ie calling the Westminster theologians bemused (I suppose you are thinking of the word “bemused” as something along the lines of meaning “confused” rather than the definition of the word which is “deep in thought”) is nothing more than an infantile exercise in name calling. You certainly have not done the responsible or mature thing, by showing exactly how it is you think they are confused, you seem to think that by calling them names, like some 7 yr old on the playground, you have somehow established that you are right and they are not. If you think they are confused, fine, I happen to think you are extremely confused on a number of issues, but unless you do a little more than banal name calling, you are doing no one, least of all yourself, any good.”
So the issue is not due to my and Nick's disagreement on trinitarianism, its his character, its the way he treats those whom he disagrees with. In fact, I would hope that he follows your advice and changes the way he interacts with others, so that we could get back to theological issues that are so important.
But thanks for your concern Chris, just make sure your concern is equally spread out, ok?
Hi,
These matters have fiercely divided men since before 200 ad and many have died fighting for their view. That does not mean we should not face them. Nor should we try to build unity based on unshared foundations but we should continue to try to find together what we can agree on.My hope is that we should first agree that all truth has to be directly based on scriptural teaching. That excludes derived or speculative thought as being in any way equivalent. I believe also the Old and New Testaments can be used as evidence but the Old must be interpreted according to the New though the New also needs the Old to be understood.
Who would like to build?
ps
Matt 7.24
“Therefore every one who hears these words of mine and acts upon them, may be compared to a wise man, who built his house upon the rock”
Matt 13.52″…Therefore every scribe who has become a disciple of the kingdom of heaven is like a head of a household, who brings forth out of his treasure things new and old”Perhaps this relates too?”The older shall serve the younger”
In regard to the previous two posts, the following link may be of interest to some:
Hi RR,
Yes I would always expect the “torahofmessiah”site to preach that the NT must be interpreted to the OT. That is their theme. But Jesus has fulfilled the OT and now we all, Jews and Gentiles, must follow Him.Hi RR,
Is Jesus Lord of the Sabbath?Was the Sabbath created for man or man for the Sabbath?Can regulations and law obedience still save the Jews or us?Hi E –
I missed your extensive post earlier on this page – so here's a run down of answers –
have you read everything that Nick has written Chris?
no – not yet, but in time I hope to!
don't let the fact that you agree with Nick on certain theological issues cause you to point out what you take to be my wrongs in this situation, without also pointing out the fact that it was Nick's harsh words towards the writers of Westminster that cuased this little situation in the first place.
I am sorry
– I really wasn't meaning to point out any particular piece of the discussion – or 'wrongs' – I just felt a lot of sadness reading the conversation…So I ask you…. is ignoring the things he said about the states of other's souls the loving thing in this case?
I do see your point – I just pray for more peace. You are all well read and willing to speak – and this is great – I'm just getting used to such a blessed forum.
But thanks for your concern Chris, just make sure your concern is equally spread out, ok?
I will work on it bro – truth is – I love this place – and it is what it is because of people like you and Nick – I didn't mean to offend or single out anyone – and I was mistaken about the thrust of the argument – I hope ya' all forgive me – GBU
Hi C,
E has quoted the understandings of theologians and this site does not give such “wisdom” equal importance as the Word of God itself that these understandings may or may not be based on.We believe it behoves every individual to seek for himself the truth.
Then if men say what is from scripture that is appropriate here and apart from that we are told to judge the personal fruit of these individuals-did they show evidence in their actions and behaviours that reveal the Spirit in them in power and love?
Theologians have many followers but we should follow the Master less they lead us into a pit.
hi Nick –
I understand what you're saying – its just that I wish it could be said – more lovingly – I guess. After the last two thousand yrs. we have endured I would think we could agree to disagree – but find unity in the things we do agree upon – here's to hope!
Hi C,
It is us who have had to withstand grievous personal verbal assaults here. Not a problem as you get used to it from those who try to distract attention from their deficient doctrines but soothsayers are not that effective in causing folk to rethink their basic beliefs. Our master was capable of harder words that we use.Hi,
The forum here is about the false rendering of this verse due to trintarian bias in the KJV, which has been corrected in some later versions.
In fact the true rendering of three witnesses[wrongly put as Father,Son and Spirit]as “Spirit, water and blood” are essential to the understanding of salvation. Mere intellectual assent for salvation ['accepting Jesus as my Saviour']is totally unscriptural as heavenly evidence but these three are such evidence forever in God's court.Quote (Christofer @ July 13 2005,01:34) Hi E – I missed your extensive post earlier on this page – so here's a run down of answers –
have you read everything that Nick has written Chris?
no – not yet, but in time I hope to!
don't let the fact that you agree with Nick on certain theological issues cause you to point out what you take to be my wrongs in this situation, without also pointing out the fact that it was Nick's harsh words towards the writers of Westminster that cuased this little situation in the first place.
I am sorry
– I really wasn't meaning to point out any particular piece of the discussion – or 'wrongs' – I just felt a lot of sadness reading the conversation…So I ask you…. is ignoring the things he said about the states of other's souls the loving thing in this case?
I do see your point – I just pray for more peace. You are all well read and willing to speak – and this is great – I'm just getting used to such a blessed forum.
But thanks for your concern Chris, just make sure your concern is equally spread out, ok?
I will work on it bro – truth is – I love this place – and it is what it is because of people like you and Nick – I didn't mean to offend or single out anyone – and I was mistaken about the thrust of the argument – I hope ya' all forgive me – GBU
now Chris…. how in the woirld can I argue with a post like that !!! LOL…. your humility is a lesson for me to learn to be sure… may you continue to teach it to me becasue the truth is, I am very dense sometimes, and have a severe leaning towards sarcastic humor…. sometimes my sarcasm goes too far…. arrrgggggg… thank you though…. for your spirit of oeace and peacemaking… I want to be able to temper my beliefs with that kind of attitude while, all the time remebering these words from Paul;1 Thessalonians 5:1-10 NKJV (1) But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. (2) For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. (3) For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. (4) But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. (5) You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. (6) Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. (7) For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. (8) But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. (9) For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, (10) who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.”
Its a hard line Chris… it really is… I find myself continually dealing with the pluralism that today's world…. ironically!!!!!…. is trying to force on everyone… lol!!! now if that isn't twisted!! lol… you know what I mean? in today's world the last taboo is to dare to say that someone else's beliefs are wrong…. today the motto is “its always and everywhere wrong to tell someone else they are wrong!” …. but the confusion that eixsts today in the multiplicity of worldviews etc will only produce a twisted self refuting statement like that…. the fact is, it is impossible to live by such a standard of right and wrong…. ie to claim that everyone's views are just as valid and true as anyone else's… its simply impossible for that to be the case…. for instance, either Jesus was right when He said that no one would be able to go to the Father but by Him, or its not true…. simple as that… today's world would have us act as if the law of noncontradiction were no longer valid…. I think the creeping in of Eastern worldviews is esp problematic in this infestation which has corrupted clear thinking…. and alongside of this exaltation of contradiction as being some kind of hallmark for truth, is the rampant Pragmatism… the silly cliche's like “hey, whats true for you is true for you, and whats true for me is whats true for me…. ya know… whatever floats your boat…. whatever makes you happy…..” I simply despise such thinking…. as if the fact that something “works” has ANYTHING to do with whether or not it is true!!! After all, the holocaust “worked” quite well for Hitler… at least it did… for awhile…. people seem to not realize that using Pragmatism as an ethical system is impossible… for according to that system one has no grounds whatsoever to stand on to say that anything is universally wrong or right…. no one from that worldview could ever say “Hitler's extermination of the Jews was morally wrong”… and so it is for much of today's world…. everyone wants to flirt with Relativism… that is…. until something happens to them….!!! suddenly, when a loved one is hurt, or personal property is damaged or stolen, people want to start and invoke all kinds of absolutes!! ….. but they can't have it both ways…. though many would like to…. grrrrrr
sorry about that /rant off….. lol
blessings
blessings
Hi,
Deliberate scriptural alteration, for good reasons and bad, and translational bias, are some of the many challenges we face trying to distill the pure truth fom the Word. It is worth it though.” Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe”
Hi Nick,
yes this is an interesting forum. I read all the responses. I think we all need to keep in mind the saying of our brother in Christ, Peter.
In 1 Peter 3:15, he states, ” but in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect”.
I've had many discussions with people from many denominations, as well as other faiths. We may agree to disagree but I still respect the individual no matter how hard it is.
Titus 3:9 tells us to “avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguements and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless”.
2 Timothy 2:14 says, “Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.
I don't mind sharing my faith with anyone, but I have come to the conclusion that I WILL NOT ARGUE OVER GOD'S WORD. It is unprofitable and useless. It won't help convert anyone.
Personally, I do not believe in the Trinty or the Oneness doctrine.
I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Not God the Son, not Jehovah or Yahweh in the Flesh. Its funny that as you look throughout the gospels, you see examples of Jesus casting out demons. And on certain occasions the demons referred to him as the Holy One of God, Or the Son of God. Matthew 8:28-29, Mark 1:24, Luke 4:34. John the baptist called him the Lamb of God. “of” meaning from. How can he be from God and yet be God. Matthew 16:16, peter confesses him as the Christ, the Son of the living God. after Peter made this confession Jesus commends him and said, “This was not revealed to you my man, but by my Father in heaven”. So if this was revealed to Peter by The Father, then what Peter said wasn't incorrect.
Hi woutlaw,
Many come here and trundle out their false denominational doctrines that have deceived them and led them into complacency but have also prevented them from receiving salvation. They may never listen but their shallow arguments held up to the light of scripture at least may teach others which way not to go.
Jas 5.19
” My brethren,if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner back from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins”
Jude 22
“And have mercy on some who are doubting ;save others snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh”Good points Nick
I don't know how things are in New Zealand, but here in America, complacency is definetly the right word to describe the “Church” here. The divorce rates in the “Church” are just as high as the divorce rates of the world. An alarming number of women who are having abortions in this country profess to be “Christians”. The traditional family structure is going down the commode. The percentage of children born out of wedlock among African Americans is 70%-80%. Yet African American communities are full of “Churches”, many times they are literally next door or across the street from each other. This is not a racist statement as I am an African American. So I am very qualified to speak on this issue. The percentage of children born out of wedlock amongst Caucasians is right around 20% and climbing. We are losing a generation of children to this sex,drugs, and rock n roll culture. The porn culture is ripping marriages and families apart at an alarming rate. We literally have children taking guns to school and blowing people away. AND YET AMERICA IS CALLED A “CHRISTIAN” NATION. Folks this is what happens when you have a “Church” system that teaches CHEAP GRACE. All the key issues I talked about in this paragraph are occurring in the “Church”. I welcome any thoughts
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