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Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 09 2009,04:47) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 09 2009,04:38) Quote (eveh @ Sep. 04 2009,19:05) Thomas recognized Jesus and the Holy Spirit that was God in him. That is why he said, “My Lord and my God”…he was not calling Jesus, God. He was remembering a few days before, when Jesus told them, the Father is in me. When he saw Jesus standing there, risen from the dead, the knew then that God was in Christ, reconciling the world to him. God was in Jesus, and Thomas finally got it. Will you?
Love it!
Except that Thomas was speaking TO JESUS saying “My Lord and my God.”“And Thomas said TO HIM, 'My Lord and my God' ''
thinker
Hello All,Do you see my point? This is a prime example of how two (or more) people can take THE SAME passage and read THE SAME grammar and come up with TWO DIFFERENT INTERPRETATIONS of what it means.
This happens with baptism, security of salvation, trinity, on and on and on.
You are all destined for doubt. You have NO infallible interpreter. Yes, you can convince yourselves that the interpretation you hold on any one thing is right. But IS it right?
Hi CA,
Men are vessels.
Jesus spoke with the man in the cemetary as he dealt with the legion within him.Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 10 2009,05:58) Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 09 2009,04:47) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 09 2009,04:38) Quote (eveh @ Sep. 04 2009,19:05) Thomas recognized Jesus and the Holy Spirit that was God in him. That is why he said, “My Lord and my God”…he was not calling Jesus, God. He was remembering a few days before, when Jesus told them, the Father is in me. When he saw Jesus standing there, risen from the dead, the knew then that God was in Christ, reconciling the world to him. God was in Jesus, and Thomas finally got it. Will you?
Love it!
Except that Thomas was speaking TO JESUS saying “My Lord and my God.”“And Thomas said TO HIM, 'My Lord and my God' ''
thinker
Hello All,Do you see my point? This is a prime example of how two (or more) people can take THE SAME passage and read THE SAME grammar and come up with TWO DIFFERENT INTERPRETATIONS of what it means.
This happens with baptism, security of salvation, trinity, on and on and on.
You are all destined for doubt. You have NO infallible interpreter. Yes, you can convince yourselves that the interpretation you hold on any one thing is right. But IS it right?
But if I'm convinced that it's right, does it really matter if it isn't?
I'm just kidding…..sort of.Here's the thing CA, you have to put your faith somewhere. Some put their faith in the “leading” of the so-called “Holy Spirit” to make them feel secure. Some put their faith in folks who lived and died a trillion years ago and happen to write something down….. Is it really reliable? How do you know fo sho?
Love,
MandyQuote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 09 2009,13:58) Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 09 2009,04:47) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 09 2009,04:38) Quote (eveh @ Sep. 04 2009,19:05) Thomas recognized Jesus and the Holy Spirit that was God in him. That is why he said, “My Lord and my God”…he was not calling Jesus, God. He was remembering a few days before, when Jesus told them, the Father is in me. When he saw Jesus standing there, risen from the dead, the knew then that God was in Christ, reconciling the world to him. God was in Jesus, and Thomas finally got it. Will you?
Love it!
Except that Thomas was speaking TO JESUS saying “My Lord and my God.”“And Thomas said TO HIM, 'My Lord and my God' ''
thinker
Hello All,Do you see my point? This is a prime example of how two (or more) people can take THE SAME passage and read THE SAME grammar and come up with TWO DIFFERENT INTERPRETATIONS of what it means.
This happens with baptism, security of salvation, trinity, on and on and on.
You are all destined for doubt. You have NO infallible interpreter. Yes, you can convince yourselves that the interpretation you hold on any one thing is right. But IS it right?
Hi CAI for sure am not doubting or confused. I know in whom I have believed!
So no we do not have to lean on the arm of flesh for the truth of the scriptures.
However, I believe in accountability and in the gifts given to the Church the body of Christ to bring us to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, or into maturity, so that we might grow up into him who is the head. Not grow up onto an organization or a Priest, Bishop, or Pope!
The Body of Christ the “true Church” is not an organization but a living organism made up of living epistles written and read of all men.
Paul said that we are to endevour to keep the Unity of the Spirit until we all come to the Unity of the Faith. Eph 4.
It is the Spirit that we have been made to drink and has baptised us into the Body of Christ, who is the Head of that body and it is not an organization.
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 09 2009,04:47) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 09 2009,04:38) Quote (eveh @ Sep. 04 2009,19:05) Thomas recognized Jesus and the Holy Spirit that was God in him. That is why he said, “My Lord and my God”…he was not calling Jesus, God. He was remembering a few days before, when Jesus told them, the Father is in me. When he saw Jesus standing there, risen from the dead, the knew then that God was in Christ, reconciling the world to him. God was in Jesus, and Thomas finally got it. Will you?
Love it!
Except that Thomas was speaking TO JESUS saying “My Lord and my God.”“And Thomas said TO HIM, 'My Lord and my God' ''
thinker
Thinker,Of course I have a theory on this.
We were not present during this scene with Thomas and Jesus. Would you say that sometimes body language can change the meaning of a conversation? It does.
Imagine that Jesus appears….. Thomas is so amazed. He falls to his knees and stretches out his hands towards Jesus and says, “My Lord!”. And then stretches his hands towards heaven, in joyfull appreciation towards the Father for returning his Master to him, and says, “My God!”.
It could have happend.
We weren't there.Love,
MandyQuote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 09 2009,14:43) Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 09 2009,04:47) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 09 2009,04:38) Quote (eveh @ Sep. 04 2009,19:05) Thomas recognized Jesus and the Holy Spirit that was God in him. That is why he said, “My Lord and my God”…he was not calling Jesus, God. He was remembering a few days before, when Jesus told them, the Father is in me. When he saw Jesus standing there, risen from the dead, the knew then that God was in Christ, reconciling the world to him. God was in Jesus, and Thomas finally got it. Will you?
Love it!
Except that Thomas was speaking TO JESUS saying “My Lord and my God.”“And Thomas said TO HIM, 'My Lord and my God' ''
thinker
Thinker,Of course I have a theory on this.
We were not present during this scene with Thomas and Jesus. Would you say that sometimes body language can change the meaning of a conversation? It does.
Imagine that Jesus appears….. Thomas is so amazed. He falls to his knees and stretches out his hands towards Jesus and says, “My Lord!”. And then stretches his hands towards heaven, in joyfull appreciation towards the Father for returning his Master to him, and says, “My God!”.
It could have happend.
We weren't there.Love,
Mandy
Hi MandyThat would be a pretty important piece for John to leave out don't you think?
No, John wrote “Thomas said unto him, My Lord and My God”.
And it is not at all contradictory to John 1:1, and John 1:18 and 1 John 5:20!
Why not just believe the simple reading? Why add inference and additions to the scriptures?
WJ
hi WJ,
The unity of the Spirit is also in belief in the Scriptures written by that Spirit through men.[2Peter].
So why do you extol such unity while also preaching catholic additions such as trinity?Hi Keith,
I think a lot was left out, personally. Why not this? I'm certain that if the author's of the bible included body language…..the final book would have been so big!
We know that even using this forum can sometimes pose problems in communication because we cannot see one another and their body language.
The other verses are interpretational either way, sorry.
So, it's completely possible that it happened that way. Whether or not you believe it happened that way is your choice. That's the beauty I am finding in the bible lately…no matter what you believe….it's there for you!
Love,
MandyHi not3,
If every man's opinion about God is true then God does not exist.
He speaks about Himself in His Word and backs up what is important.Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 10 2009,06:43) Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 09 2009,04:47) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 09 2009,04:38) Quote (eveh @ Sep. 04 2009,19:05) Thomas recognized Jesus and the Holy Spirit that was God in him. That is why he said, “My Lord and my God”…he was not calling Jesus, God. He was remembering a few days before, when Jesus told them, the Father is in me. When he saw Jesus standing there, risen from the dead, the knew then that God was in Christ, reconciling the world to him. God was in Jesus, and Thomas finally got it. Will you?
Love it!
Except that Thomas was speaking TO JESUS saying “My Lord and my God.”“And Thomas said TO HIM, 'My Lord and my God' ''
thinker
Thinker,Of course I have a theory on this.
We were not present during this scene with Thomas and Jesus. Would you say that sometimes body language can change the meaning of a conversation? It does.
Imagine that Jesus appears….. Thomas is so amazed. He falls to his knees and stretches out his hands towards Jesus and says, “My Lord!”. And then stretches his hands towards heaven, in joyfull appreciation towards the Father for returning his Master to him, and says, “My God!”.
It could have happend.
We weren't there.Love,
Mandy
But the point is that you can't know by “the Bible alone”. Sounds like you are realizing the need for the behind the scenes look to be sure. We call that look “Tradition”. And so it makes sense that we are commanded to keep the traditions by word. (see 2 Thess. 2:15)Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 10 2009,06:39) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 10 2009,05:58) Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 09 2009,04:47) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 09 2009,04:38) Quote (eveh @ Sep. 04 2009,19:05) Thomas recognized Jesus and the Holy Spirit that was God in him. That is why he said, “My Lord and my God”…he was not calling Jesus, God. He was remembering a few days before, when Jesus told them, the Father is in me. When he saw Jesus standing there, risen from the dead, the knew then that God was in Christ, reconciling the world to him. God was in Jesus, and Thomas finally got it. Will you?
Love it!
Except that Thomas was speaking TO JESUS saying “My Lord and my God.”“And Thomas said TO HIM, 'My Lord and my God' ''
thinker
Hello All,Do you see my point? This is a prime example of how two (or more) people can take THE SAME passage and read THE SAME grammar and come up with TWO DIFFERENT INTERPRETATIONS of what it means.
This happens with baptism, security of salvation, trinity, on and on and on.
You are all destined for doubt. You have NO infallible interpreter. Yes, you can convince yourselves that the interpretation you hold on any one thing is right. But IS it right?
But if I'm convinced that it's right, does it really matter if it isn't? I'm just kidding…..sort of.Here's the thing CA, you have to put your faith somewhere. Some put their faith in the “leading” of the so-called “Holy Spirit” to make them feel secure. Some put their faith in folks who lived and died a trillion years ago and happen to write something down….. Is it really reliable? How do you know fo sho?
Love,
Mandy
According to that logic, how do you even know Jesus or the apostles really lived? Someone who wrote “a trillion years ago” told us so? How do we know they are right?Quote Hi CA I for sure am not doubting or confused. I know in whom I have believed!
So no we do not have to lean on the arm of flesh for the truth of the scriptures.
However, I believe in accountability and in the gifts given to the Church the body of Christ to bring us to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, or into maturity, so that we might grow up into him who is the head. Not grow up onto an wrganization or a Priest, Bishop, or Pope!
Wait just one minute. You mean to tell me that you rely on OTHER MEN beside yourself to assure you of your doctrinal accuracy? How do you know these men have and hold to the TRUTH? Because they agree with you? That is circular logic.
Besides if the Church is not organized, then why in the world did St. Paul ordain bishops and deacons and command the believers to obey those who had the rule over them and say that they had watch over their souls? (Heb. 13:17)
We have bishops and deacons. We are the Church. We are visible.
Hi CA,
Your denomination has no connection with God and His son.
Adrift in a sea of foolish and futile speculations.
The Emperor is wearing no clothesQuote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 10 2009,07:27) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 10 2009,06:39) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 10 2009,05:58) Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 09 2009,04:47) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 09 2009,04:38) Quote (eveh @ Sep. 04 2009,19:05) Thomas recognized Jesus and the Holy Spirit that was God in him. That is why he said, “My Lord and my God”…he was not calling Jesus, God. He was remembering a few days before, when Jesus told them, the Father is in me. When he saw Jesus standing there, risen from the dead, the knew then that God was in Christ, reconciling the world to him. God was in Jesus, and Thomas finally got it. Will you?
Love it!
Except that Thomas was speaking TO JESUS saying “My Lord and my God.”“And Thomas said TO HIM, 'My Lord and my God' ''
thinker
Hello All,Do you see my point? This is a prime example of how two (or more) people can take THE SAME passage and read THE SAME grammar and come up with TWO DIFFERENT INTERPRETATIONS of what it means.
This happens with baptism, security of salvation, trinity, on and on and on.
You are all destined for doubt. You have NO infallible interpreter. Yes, you can convince yourselves that the interpretation you hold on any one thing is right. But IS it right?
But if I'm convinced that it's right, does it really matter if it isn't? I'm just kidding…..sort of.Here's the thing CA, you have to put your faith somewhere. Some put their faith in the “leading” of the so-called “Holy Spirit” to make them feel secure. Some put their faith in folks who lived and died a trillion years ago and happen to write something down….. Is it really reliable? How do you know fo sho?
Love,
Mandy
According to that logic, how do you even know Jesus or the apostles really lived? Someone who wrote “a trillion years ago” told us so? How do we know they are right?
I don't…… and that's sorta the point I'm trying to make here.No one can know for sure.
Sure, you have the traditions, but they were also written by men. Do you trust these men? Why?
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 09 2009,15:32) Quote Hi CA I for sure am not doubting or confused. I know in whom I have believed!
So no we do not have to lean on the arm of flesh for the truth of the scriptures.
However, I believe in accountability and in the gifts given to the Church the body of Christ to bring us to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, or into maturity, so that we might grow up into him who is the head. Not grow up onto an wrganization or a Priest, Bishop, or Pope!
Wait just one minute. You mean to tell me that you rely on OTHER MEN beside yourself to assure you of your doctrinal accuracy? How do you know these men have and hold to the TRUTH? Because they agree with you? That is circular logic.
Besides if the Church is not organized, then why in the world did St. Paul ordain bishops and deacons and command the believers to obey those who had the rule over them and say that they had watch over their souls? (Heb. 13:17)
We have bishops and deacons. We are the Church. We are visible.
Hi CAIt takes the Spirit and the fellowship of believers and the gifts and in fact the whole package which is administered by Jesus who is the head and not some organization.
Apostolic succesion is not proven in history for there were about 200 years from the time of the Apostles and the beginning of the RCC, that is a fact!
But if I or say some tribe were in some remote jungle somewhere cut off from the world (or your world the RCC) are you saying to me that the Spirit of God could not or would not speak to them or me and that they could not have a relationship with God?
The problem with what I am hearing from you is that someone cannot know God or have a personal relationship with him apart from the CC.
Circular is believing that the scriptures that you and the RCC claim as being inspired and infallible can only be interpreted by a select few, namely the RCC.
When the Apostles wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to the Churches did they need someone to interpret them? Or did they have the anointing, the Holy Spirit within them that Jesus said would guide them into all truth?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 10 2009,07:50) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 09 2009,15:32) Quote Hi CA I for sure am not doubting or confused. I know in whom I have believed!
So no we do not have to lean on the arm of flesh for the truth of the scriptures.
However, I believe in accountability and in the gifts given to the Church the body of Christ to bring us to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, or into maturity, so that we might grow up into him who is the head. Not grow up onto an wrganization or a Priest, Bishop, or Pope!
Wait just one minute. You mean to tell me that you rely on OTHER MEN beside yourself to assure you of your doctrinal accuracy? How do you know these men have and hold to the TRUTH? Because they agree with you? That is circular logic.
Besides if the Church is not organized, then why in the world did St. Paul ordain bishops and deacons and command the believers to obey those who had the rule over them and say that they had watch over their souls? (Heb. 13:17)
We have bishops and deacons. We are the Church. We are visible.
Hi CAIt takes the Spirit and the fellowship of believers and the gifts and in fact the whole package which is administered by Jesus who is the head and not some organization.
Apostolic succesion is not proven in history for there were about 200 years from the time of the Apostles and the beginning of the RCC, that is a fact!
But if I or say some tribe were in some remote jungle somewhere cut off from the world (or your world the RCC) are you saying to me that the Spirit of God could not or would not speak to them or me and that they could not have a relationship with God?
The problem with what I am hearing from you is that someone cannot know God or have a personal relationship with him apart from the CC.
Circular is believing that the scriptures that you and the RCC claim as being inspired and infallible can only be interpreted by a select few, namely the RCC.
When the Apostles wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to the Churches did they need someone to interpret them? Or did they have the anointing, the Holy Spirit within them that Jesus said would guide them into all truth?
WJ
Quote It takes the Spirit and the fellowship of believers and the gifts and in fact the whole package which is administered by Jesus who is the head and not some organization. And I am saying that the Assemblies of God do that, the Baptists do that, the UPC does that, the Presbyterians do that, the Methodists do that, the Church of Christ does that. And SOMEBODY has GOT to be dead WRONG.
Do you get that?
Quote Apostolic succesion is not proven in history for there were about 200 years from the time of the Apostles and the beginning of the RCC, that is a fact! Instead of digressing to “yes it is. no it's not. yes it is.” Please consider the following quote from Ignatius of Antioch who knew the apostles:
“Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop. On the other hand, whatever has his approval is pleasing to God. Thus, whatever is done will be safe and valid.” — Letter to the Smyrnaeans 8, J.R. Willis translation. (written sometime between 98 and 117 AD)
So try saying that again?
Quote But if I or say some tribe were in some remote jungle somewhere cut off from the world (or your world the RCC) are you saying to me that the Spirit of God could not or would not speak to them or me and that they could not have a relationship with God? No. In fact we are the ones who confess this is possible. But their ignorance of Christ or whatever doctrines they are ignorant of would be invincible and they would not have guilt. What about you, though?
Quote The problem with what I am hearing from you is that someone cannot know God or have a personal relationship with him apart from the CC. No. I'm saying it is possible. But at the same time I am saying that the FULLNESS of the truth is found in the Church. I believe I had a relationship with God as an protestant evangelical pentecostal minister. But I didn't have the fullness of the truth. And so even though God was with me, I still had to endure much due to confusion and error.
I thank God that everyone who seeks finds. I believe you will too if you keep seeking.
Quote Circular is believing that the scriptures that you and the RCC claim as being inspired and infallible can only be interpreted by a select few, namely the RCC. Ahh…But we are NOT the ones saying that the Scriptures are to be interpreted by a select few (one to be precise=Sola Scriptura). I want you to get this:
We are saying that the Scriptures are interpreted in and by the Church by the multitude of bishops in unison ALL OVER THE WORLD, in EVERY GENERATION SINCE CHRIST, and that multitude of counsel speaks with one voice and in that you will find safety. (Here it is in your KJV: “Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.” Prov. 11:14)
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 10 2009,08:12) And SOMEBODY has GOT to be dead WRONG.
CA,I have to confess and tell you that I do not believe this anymore.
I think this is part of what drives Christians to burn people at stakes, and to throw other's out of their congregations. I think it's also what divides a “house” and of course it does not stand….
I no longer believe there is but one truth and everyone else is WRONG!! Why? Because no one, including you, can prove with 100% certainty that they are the only way to God. It cannot be done. And until it can be done, I shall chose to live my life like this:
Loving my neighbor, and loving God (as I understand the concept). Appreciating all religions that strive to know God. And letting God sort out the rest. What a sorting project that will be.
This site has attempted a sorting project – they have groups of “Believers” and “non-Believers”. Hmmmm. Futile.
Love,
MandyQuote When the Apostles wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to the Churches did they need someone to interpret them? Or did they have the anointing, the Holy Spirit within them that Jesus said would guide them into all truth? They had more than this. They had the personal revelation of Jesus Christ in the flesh. And they passed this revelation on in every generation for the past 2k years. It is the deposit of faith.
Every Tom, Dick or Harry heretic has claimed to hear the voice of God leading them into all truth. But NONE of them can even try to claim to be speaking from the fountain of the apostles.
“It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors to our own times—men who neither knew nor taught anything like these heretics rave about. (Against Heresies 1:10:2 [A.D. 189])
“But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles.
“With this church, because of its superior origin, all churches must agree—that is, all the faithful in the whole world—and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition” (ibid., 3:3:1–2).
Also this by St. Irenaeus:
“As I said before, the Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although she is disseminated throughout the whole world, yet guarded it, as if she occupied but one house. She likewise believes these things just as if she had but one soul and one and the same heart; and harmoniously she proclaims them and teaches them and hands them down, as if she possessed but one mouth. For, while the languages of the world are diverse, nevertheless, the authority of the tradition is one and the same” (Against Heresies 1:10:2 [A.D. 189]).
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 10 2009,08:21) Also this by St. Irenaeus: “As I said before, the Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although she is disseminated throughout the whole world, yet guarded it, as if she occupied but one house. She likewise believes these things just as if she had but one soul and one and the same heart; and harmoniously she proclaims them and teaches them and hands them down, as if she possessed but one mouth. For, while the languages of the world are diverse, nevertheless, the authority of the tradition is one and the same” (Against Heresies 1:10:2 [A.D. 189]).
Hey CA,This was written in the year 189. How do you know it was preserved correctly? Perhaps the skin (or whatever) it was written on deteriorated and it was copied again and again. How do you know it was transfered correctly in it's original voice? Do you know for sure?
Thanks,
Mandy
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