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Quote (malcolm ferris @ June 03 2006,14:14) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2006,20:28) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 28 2006,10:36) Hi Malcolm,
You have quoted the false rendition of this verse from the KJV, written into scripture from a comment found in the margin of a manuscript.
Hi Malcolm,
Why do you prefer KJV?
Why do you quote the false rendition of 1Jn5.7?One of the problems with the evil substituted false rendition of the earliest and latest KJV versions is the loss of the vital true rendition. These verses are crucial regarding testimony of our salvation being written in heaven.
NASB
1Jn 5.5f
'Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes Jesus is the Son of God?
This is the one who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ, not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify;
The Spirit and
The Water and
The Blood
And the three are in agreement”So the witnesses to the fact of Jesus, the Son of God , being the Messiah are:
The Spirit-the Word written by the Spirit through men that foretold the coming, the ministry and the sacrificial death of Jesus.
The Water-Jesus was baptised by John to fulfill God's final righteous demands under the Old Covenant.
The Blood-The seal of the new Covenant as shown by Jesus at the Last supper the shedding of which tore the temple curtain to open new access to God in him.
We too, after repentance, must be born again of water and the Spirit being baptised into the death of Jesus. We must believe Jesus IS the Son of God to overcome the world.
Hi Nick1 John 5:6-8
6 This is he who came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And the Spirit testifies that that very Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three to bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three are one.
(Lamsa-Peshitta version taken from the Aramaic)Matt 28:18-19
18 And Jesus came up and spoke with them, and said to them, All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Just as my Father has sent me I am also sending you. 19 Go, therefore, and convert all nations; and baptize them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit;
(Lamsa-Peshitta version taken from the Aramaic)I find it rather interesting that Dr Lamsa a Jewish scholar who translated the bible using the Aramaic saw fit to render these verses as virtually identical to the KJV.
Hi Malcolm,
Interesting.
Which manuscripts did he use?
What original language did he translate from?
Aramaic you say?
Who wrote it into Aramaic?
When was the translation done?Most other scholars agree this verse is spurious but I am open to correction.
Hi All,
I'm sorry but I have a revelation for you all….many of the bibles that are used today contain lies mixed with truths.
Yes, Matthew Chapter 28, Verses 18-19 does say to baptize in the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.
But, Acts Chapter 2, Verses 36 – 38 reads:
“Therefore, let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made this same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter, and to the rest of the Apostles, Men and brethen, What shall we do?
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the Name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the holy Ghost.”
Quoted from the King James 1611 and Douay Rheims Bible Versions.
Matthew quoted the first and Peter the second. Question: To whom did Jesus Christ give the keys of his Church? Was it Matthew?
? Definitely not!!! It was Peter.Therefore, according to Peter, every one is to be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and they will then be given the “gift” of the holy Ghost.
The holy Ghost is a “gift,” the Almighty God is the “ruach elohiem.” (Holy Spirit)
Please brothers and sisters be discerning remember to always seek wisdom whereby you will find truth.
Peace in Christ to you all,
Mel Smith
Hi Mel,
There is only a sprinkling of error in my view.
God allows his sons to discern all things according to the Spirit of truth.
But we must not lose faith in the Word we have.Hi,
This is the KJV version of the verse.
But it bears no resemblance to the verse in other translations.
So not only was it added but what other versions say was removed;1Jn. 5:7 (KJV) “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”
1Jn 5.7[ NASB]
“And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is the truth”Does not making such changes blaspheme the Spirit?
The next verse in the KJV has the word “earth' that does not appear in NASB. Does it belong there?
Hi,
I have checked bible gatewayand the added words continue into verse 8
NASB 1 Jn 5.7-8
” 7For there are (A)three that testify:8[a]the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
Footnotes:
A few late mss add …in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three that testify on earth, the Spirit “
Hi Oxy,
Here is the verse in 1 Jn 5.7 in context in NASB
Three gods?
Three parts of one God?
” 7For there are (A)three that testify:
a]the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.9(B)If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that ©He has testified concerning His Son.”
I agree that 1 Jn 5:7 is spurious….. Elwell says “The words from “in heaven” (v. 7) through “on earth” (v. 8) are only found in a few Greek manuscripts, none dating earlier than the fourteenth century. Furthermore, the passage is not quoted by any of the Greek church fathers. The textual data suggest that these words were absent from the original letter.”
blessings
Quote (Peggy @ Dec. 28 2003,04:00) Thank you for taking time to email me with your position. There are many things to say in response but my time is limited. I'm sure you already know that every version except the AJKV was translated from the Minority Text (Siniaticus (Aleph) and Vaticanus (B) via Alexandria via Rome and, contrary to what it says in the back of your NIV, they are not older than the earliest versions of the Bible: The /Preshitta, Italic, Waldensian/ and the /Old Latin Vulgate/. These ancient versions are some 200 years older than Aleph and B. They are older than other Greek manuscript copies of the Bible but they are not older than /The Preshitta, Italic, Waldensian/ and the /Old Latin Vulgate/. All Bibles fall basically into two categories: those based on the Majority Text (Textus Receptus) and those based on the Minority Text (Siniaticus is a manuscript that was found in 1844 in a trash pile in St. Catherine's Monastery near Mt. Sinai by a man named Tischdorf.
Codex Vaticanus was produced in the 4th century. It was found over a thousand years later in 1481 in the Vatican in Rome, where it is currently held. It is believed to one of 50 Bibles Constantine ordered from Egypt. If you have time, research Hort and Westcott. These two atheist wrote the textbook for Greek translation that is still being used to this day in Bible studies. It is their Greek translation of the Minority Text that you have chosen to believe.
Scripture proof of Jesus is God is at
http://www.seekgod.org/bible/jesusisgod.html
Hi Peggy,First point, please show the EXACT scripture which says one must confess the “diety of Jesus” for salvation. In fact the word “diety” itself is NOT found in the Bible but is of pagan origin. There is no scripture that says that, no matter how many links you post. You are adding to God's Word and making up your own rules for salvation. What the Bible DOES say is:
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, THE SON OF GOD, and that by believing, you may have life in his name.” [John 20:31]
Second point is that UP UNTIL 1900's, the Codex Vaticanus of 340 AD and the Codex Sinaticus of 330 AD WERE the oldest texts available. In the 1900's more than 100 New Testament manscripts are found in Egypt which are older than the Codex Vaticanus & Sinaticus! Even so, they are only New Testament manuscripts. The Dead Sea Scrolls which were discovered in 1947 by a shepard in Qumran cave are at least 1,000 years older than those texts and contain all of the Old Testament books except for the book of Esther!
Remember that the Lord Jesus and his apostles constantly QUOTED from the Old Testament, therefore it is just as important if not more so to have older copies of the scriptures they held as sacred. Also everything spoken of in the New Testament was foreshadowed in the Old.
The NIV, New American Standard and many other modern versions have the added benefit of using these older manuscripts which were not available when the KJV was translated.
Now here are two questions for you regarding the “diety” of the Lord Jesus:
Answer these two questions from scripture please, (without trying to use qualifiiers not found in the Bible)…..
1.) Does the Lord Jesus have a God?
2.) Does God the Father have a god?
Remember, no extra Biblical doctrines are allowed. Your answers must be straight from scripture.
Semmy
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 01 2006,21:11) Hi OOTLG<
It is not a matter of combing the bible few a few different verses that may suggest to those with such a predeliction that that Jesus is his own Father. Commonsense does apply. He is the Son of that God.
you see Nick… this is exactly the kind of sloppy thinking I was talking about… in fact, this actually goes beyond mere sloppy thinking into the realm of an outright lie. But, I will give you a chance to redeem yourself, if you can quote one single reputable teacher in the Evangelical world who affirms the Trinity, and teaches that Jesus is His own Father, you will be vindicated. However, if you can't, then you are either lying knowingly, (and you know what the Bible says will happen to liars), or, you are sadly ignorant of which you speak and therefore should remain silent until you understand the position you are critical of. So, its up to you, admit and repent of your lie, or admit and repent of your misrepresentation of the Trinitarian position due to your ignorance. It's up to you to do the right thing….. what you do will say reams about who you are and what kind of character you have…. are you open to correction? are you open to admit when you are wrong? or are you stubbornly going to hold on to your ignorance and/or you lies? Choose this day whom you will serve Nick.blessings
HiH,
Trinity theory agrees with the bible that our God is one. It adds to the bible that they believe there are three persons in that God who are coequal and coeternal. So the Father is not a true father and the Son not a true son but they are still conjoint.
And the Son is also the Father.
Trintarians base their doctrines on the trinity theory foundation so do not expect any of them to look at the embarrassing folly that results from this doctrine but to ignore those resultant amusing realities. They will not see that the emperor is wearing no clothes.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 08 2006,21:46) HiH,
Trinity theory agrees with the bible that our God is one. It adds to the bible that they believe there are three persons in that God who are coequal and coeternal. So the Father is not a true father and the Son not a true son but they are still conjoint.
And the Son is also the Father.
Trintarians base their doctrines on the trinity theory foundation so do not expect any of them to look at the embarrassing folly that results from this doctrine but to ignore those resultant amusing realities. They will not see that the emperor is wearing no clothes.
Good grief Nick, I haven't heard it put like that before. There is God the Father who gave to His only begotten Son Jesus (who is STILL the Word of God) all authority. Then there's the Holy Spirit who makes God known to us. All 3 are different and I have a different relationship with all 3 and they are all God in that they are all One in purpose and unity.Me thinks you make too much of too little.
Hii Oxy,
You say
“There is God the Father who gave to His only begotten Son Jesus (who is STILL the Word of God) all authority. Then there's the Holy Spirit who makes God known to us. All 3 are different and I have a different relationship with all 3 and they are all God in that they are all One in purpose and unity.”In Lk 11 Jesus calls the Holy Spirit the “finger of God”[cf Mt 12]
Is the finger separate from the person?Quote (epistemaniac @ Aug. 09 2006,12:42) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 01 2006,21:11) Hi OOTLG<
It is not a matter of combing the bible few a few different verses that may suggest to those with such a predeliction that that Jesus is his own Father. Commonsense does apply. He is the Son of that God.
you see Nick… this is exactly the kind of sloppy thinking I was talking about… in fact, this actually goes beyond mere sloppy thinking into the realm of an outright lie. But, I will give you a chance to redeem yourself, if you can quote one single reputable teacher in the Evangelical world who affirms the Trinity, and teaches that Jesus is His own Father, you will be vindicated. However, if you can't, then you are either lying knowingly, (and you know what the Bible says will happen to liars), or, you are sadly ignorant of which you speak and therefore should remain silent until you understand the position you are critical of. So, its up to you, admit and repent of your lie, or admit and repent of your misrepresentation of the Trinitarian position due to your ignorance. It's up to you to do the right thing….. what you do will say reams about who you are and what kind of character you have…. are you open to correction? are you open to admit when you are wrong? or are you stubbornly going to hold on to your ignorance and/or you lies? Choose this day whom you will serve Nick.blessings
That is right Trinitarians do not say that Jesus is the Father, but that they are both God.But it is scripture that says that God is the Father. Therefore without realising it, saying that Jesus is also God is saying that he is the Father because scripture identifies God as the Father.
Here are 100 verses that show this to be so.
https://heavennet.net/writings/trinity-11.htm
There are hundreds more.
Hi Oxy,
You may love a verse that was added to bolster a weak trinity theory but is that wise?
There is further discussion in a thread called “the Johannine comma”The Spirit reveals Jesus to us. Yes, the Father is greater than the Son, but having said that, the Father has exalted the Son above all. But the whole purpose of the Son coming was to redeem us to the Father. It all sounds a bit confusing, but I worship Jesus as Lord of all and my Saviour. At the same time I have a Father – son relationship with the Father. The Holy Spirit makes both possible.
Hi Oxy,
Jesus told us [Jn 4] true worshipers worship the Father.
But you think we should instead worship him?
Whom should we follow?
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