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Hi GM,
You prefer your own ideas to the revelation of the Spirit given to Jesus and the apostles?
That is some self confidence but is it wisdom in any way?Quote (gollamudi @ April 19 2010,22:24) So what do you mean by that?
Hi Gollamudi,1Jn:2:2: And he(Jesus) is the propitiation for our sins: and not
for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgIs A Blood Sacrifice Required For Atonement?
Quite often, missionaries will cite Hebrews 9:22 (NT) which states: “Without the shedding of blood there is no remission” (forgiveness of sin). But is this true? Is this a Jewish concept? After all the New Testament claims to be the fulfillment of Judaism as found in the Jewish Bible. Let us look at this question to see if the New Testament is telling the truth about this important subject.
The New Testament bases this idea on Leviticus 17:11 which says:
For the life of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes an atonement for the soul.
From a simple reading of this, it seems that “blood makes atonement for the soul. Without blood atonement does not seem possible. But, is this the whole story?
First of all, we must always ask ourselves, “What is the full context of this verse.” An honest reading of Leviticus 17:10-14 shows clearly that the Torah is speaking about a prohibition against eating blood, not about atonement. Blood is considered important because when an animal is offered, the blood is the part that effects the atonement, not the skin or the bones. These passages are also here to tell us that the only permitted use of blood is on the altar, and no other.
But is a blood sacrifice the only means Hashem has given us to atone for our souls?
Absolutely not. Just as a store will allow you to pay by cash, or check, or credit card or food stamps, etc., so too Hashem allows us many way to atone for our souls.
The first step to appreciating this, is to actually look at the quote in the New Testament that missionaries cite to make their case. We will find that not only do they take Tanach verses out of context, but actually do the same thing to the New Testament as well. The entire verse reads:
Hebrews 9:22. And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Almost all things? I propose that Paul was aware that the atoning effect of blood did not cover everything, and that other means were available for atonement. Let us now examine the Tanach to see examples of where atonement was achieved in ways other than through a sin offering.
Examples:
This they shall give, every one who passes among those who are counted, half a shekel according to the shekel of the sanctuary… The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less than half a shekel, when they give an offering to the Lord, to make an atonement for your souls. (NO BLOOD).
Exodus 30:13-15
What if someone cannot afford an animal to sacrifice, is atonement closed to him?
But if he is not able to bring two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, then he who sinned shall bring for his offering the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering… Then shall he bring it to the priest, and the priest shall take his handful of it, a memorial part of it, and burn it on the altar, according to the offerings made by fire to the Lord; it is a sin offering. And the priest shall make an atonement for him in regard to his sin that he has sinned in one of these, and it shall be forgiven him; and the remnant shall be the priest's, as a meal offering. (NO BLOOD).
Leviticus 5:11 -13
In most cases in the Bible, stories of the forgiveness of sin involve genuine, heart-wrenching repentance, which is really what Hashem desires most.
Bring no more vain offerings; incense of abomination they are to me…. Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; put away the evil of your doings from before my eyes; cease to do evil; Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the orphan, plead for the widow. (NO BLOOD).
Isaiah 1:13-17
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, 0 God, you will not despise. (NO BLOOD).
Psalm 51:19
Look at the story of David and the matter of Uriah. David is confronted with his sin, repents and is forgiven
And David said to Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said to David, The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. (NO BLOOD).
11 Samuel 12:13
Furthermore, following the Golden Calf:
And the Lord said to Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiff-necked people; now therefore let me alone, that my anger may burn hot against them, and that I may consume them; and I will make of you a great nation. And Moses pleaded with the Lord his G-d, and said, Lord, why does your anger burn hot against your people, whom you have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand… Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, your servants, to whom you swore by your own self, and said to them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give to your seed, and they shall inherit it forever. And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do to his people. (NO BLOOD).
Exodus 32:9-14
Concerning Nineveh, the Gentile city in the Book of Jonah:
Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness has come up before me…
And the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them to the least of them, And word came to the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he took off his robe, and covered himself with sackcloth, and sat in ashes … And God saw their doings, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, which he had said that he would do to them; and he did not do it. (NO BLOOD)
Jonah 1:2; 3:5-6, 10
Christians may ask, How is it possible to attain atonement without sacrifices? Since no sacrifices have been offered since the Temple was destroyed, Jews offer repentance instead. Christians will then ask, by what authority can we substitute words for sacrifices?
We read in Hosea an admonition from G-d through his prophet for us all.
O Israel, return to the Lord your God; for you have stumbled in your iniquity. Take with you words, and turn to the Lord; say to him: Forgive all iniquity, and receive us graciously; so will we offer the words of our lips instead of calves.
Hosea 14:2-3
Listen to the prayers of the prophet Daniel who lived during the exile in Babylon. His words of confession:
We have sinned, and have committed iniquity; and have done wickedly and have rebelled, and have departed from your precepts and from your judgments…
Daniel 9:5
And his plea for forgiveness:
To the Lord our God belong mercy and forgiveness, for we have rebelled against him… 0 Lord, according to all your righteousness, I pray you, let your anger and your fury be turned away from your city Jerusalem, your holy mountain; because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and your people have become a- reproach to all those who are around us.
Daniel 9:9;16
Daniel asked God for forgiveness for himself and his people. Would Daniel be praying for something he couldn't have because he couldn't offer blood? Of course not. For Daniel knew of Hosea, and Daniel knew of Nathan the prophet's words about King David.
Lastly, we are told what we must do when we have been put out of our land, dispersed among all the nations and want forgiveness. Though this was spoken by King Solomon, it is applicable to us today, and it has nothing to do with blood, or Jesus.
“They shall pray unto the L-rd toward the city which You have chosen … and say … We have sinned … and so return to You with all their heart … forgive Your people that have sinned.
I Kings 8:44-50
Yes, we as Jews have sinned, in many ways. All of us, and we must follow the words of our prophets to return to G-d.
Messa
ge to Messianic JewsBy the path you have chosen, you may have sinned in a very dangerous way, one that threatens to cut you off from the Jewish people, and threatens the eternity of your neshama (soul).
We are told in Deuteronomy 28:64
“And the Lord shall scatter you among all people from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there you shall serve other gods, which neither you nor your fathers have known.”
It is important to see that the Jewish belief in G-d has standards. When Moses spoke to his generation of gods “that neither you nor your fathers worshipped”, he sought to exclude for all time all foreign views of G-d. Moses and his generation did not worship a trinity. They worshipped the one G-d who revealed Himself at Sinai.
Therefore, realize that it is no small thing to believe that Jesus is the Messiah. It is idolatry and for a Jew is punishable by koras, the eternal cutting off of your soul. You can do teshuvah (repentance), and without a sacrifice, as your ancestors did. Return to the true G-d and to his people, who will accept you, as you receive forgiveness of sin.
Hi Gollamudi,
Heb:9:22: And almost all things are by the law purged with blood;
and without shedding of (Jesus') blood is no remission (of sins).Acts 20:28: Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock,
over the which the HolySpirit hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God,
which he(HolySpirit) hath purchased with his own [God blood=74] (which Jesus'=74 shed for “The Church”).Why do 'you' (Gollamudi) disregard Scriptures in favor of…
The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate…
distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org-..There is another striking story in Matthew. A rich man comes up to Jesus and asks him, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?”. Jesus tells him, “If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments”. When asked, “Which ones?”. Jesus listed as examples some of the Ten Commandments. The man insists he has already done all these- what else is needed? Jesus replied that he should give up everything he owns, “and you will treasure in heaven” (Matt 19:16-22). Jesus then says, “And come, follow me”- but note: following Jesus comes only after the man will have inherited heavenly treasure by giving all away.
I wonder what would happened if the same man had come up to Paul, twenty years later. If Paul were asked how someone could have eternal life, would he have said, “Keep the commandments?”. Not Paul. The commandments have nothing to do with it. Jesus death and resurrection do. Would Paul have said that giving away all he owned would earn him treasure in heaven? No way. Only faith in Jesus could bring eternal life.
One can't argue that Jesus was talking about salvation before his death, and Paul about salvation afterward., because Matthew was writing after Paul. Moreover, in Matthew, Jesus is talking about the last judgment, which obviously would take place after his death and resurrection. And so the problem is this: if Matthew's Jesus was right, that keeping the law and loving others as yourself could bring salvation, how could Paul be right that doing these things were irrelevant for attaining salvation….
(taken from the book “Jesus, Interrupted” by Bart D. Eherman)Please see the paradox of Christianity.
Quote (gollamudi @ April 22 2010,18:52) -..There is another striking story in Matthew. A rich man comes up to Jesus and asks him, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?”. Jesus tells him, “If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments”. When asked, “Which ones?”. Jesus listed as examples some of the Ten Commandments. The man insists he has already done all these- what else is needed? Jesus replied that he should give up everything he owns, “and you will treasure in heaven” (Matt 19:16-22). Jesus then says, “And come, follow me”- but note: following Jesus comes only after the man will have inherited heavenly treasure by giving all away. I wonder what would happened if the same man had come up to Paul, twenty years later. If Paul were asked how someone could have eternal life, would he have said, “Keep the commandments?”. Not Paul. The commandments have nothing to do with it. Jesus death and resurrection do. Would Paul have said that giving away all he owned would earn him treasure in heaven? No way. Only faith in Jesus could bring eternal life.
One can't argue that Jesus was talking about salvation before his death, and Paul about salvation afterward., because Matthew was writing after Paul. Moreover, in Matthew, Jesus is talking about the last judgment, which obviously would take place after his death and resurrection. And so the problem is this: if Matthew's Jesus was right, that keeping the law and loving others as yourself could bring salvation, how could Paul be right that doing these things were irrelevant for attaining salvation….
(taken from the book “Jesus, Interrupted” by Bart D. Eherman)Please see the paradox of Christianity.
Hi Gollamudi1John 4:2-Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth
that [יהשוע המשיח YÄ-shü-ă hä-Mäh-shē-äkh] is come in the flesh is of God:
And every spirit that confesseth not that [המשיח hä-Mäh-shē-äkh] is come in
the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have
heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world(and here too).Quote (gollamudi @ April 22 2010,14:28) It is purely Christian propagonda.
And you have evidence to back up your false accusation.Perhaps the synagoge of the evil one has taught you such “evidence”.
Why do you choose to believe those deceivers insteasd of seeking God's righteousness and his kingdom?
I assure you that by the power of God you can change your ways and allow you to do all that is right.
Quote (gollamudi @ April 22 2010,13:52) -..There is another striking story in Matthew. A rich man comes up to Jesus and asks him, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?”. Jesus tells him, “If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments”. When asked, “Which ones?”. Jesus listed as examples some of the Ten Commandments. The man insists he has already done all these- what else is needed? Jesus replied that he should give up everything he owns, “and you will treasure in heaven” (Matt 19:16-22). Jesus then says, “And come, follow me”- but note: following Jesus comes only after the man will have inherited heavenly treasure by giving all away. I wonder what would happened if the same man had come up to Paul, twenty years later. If Paul were asked how someone could have eternal life, would he have said, “Keep the commandments?”. Not Paul. The commandments have nothing to do with it. Jesus death and resurrection do. Would Paul have said that giving away all he owned would earn him treasure in heaven? No way. Only faith in Jesus could bring eternal life.
One can't argue that Jesus was talking about salvation before his death, and Paul about salvation afterward., because Matthew was writing after Paul. Moreover, in Matthew, Jesus is talking about the last judgment, which obviously would take place after his death and resurrection. And so the problem is this: if Matthew's Jesus was right, that keeping the law and loving others as yourself could bring salvation, how could Paul be right that doing these things were irrelevant for attaining salvation….
(taken from the book “Jesus, Interrupted” by Bart D. Eherman)Please see the paradox of Christianity.
Have you read what Paul teaches. He clearly teaches in his letter to the Galatians that those who disobey the righteous requirements of the law will not enter the kingdom of heaven. He also lists the fruit of the spirit which means obedience to the righteous requirements of the law. This occurs in the fith chapter of that book.While the law states “do this” and “do not do this” the spirit gives you the ability to love your neighbor as yourself so you meet the righteous requirements of the law. It does this by giving you the power of God to overcome your sins. The law cannot do that. Since those who live by the spirit follow all the righteous requirements of the law the law has no power over them.
So following the law is not irrelevant to salvation but rather it is inefficent.
Quote (kerwin @ April 22 2010,19:57) So following the law is not irrelevant to salvation but rather it is inefficent.
So Paul made God who gave the Law inefficient?Why did Jesus die?
The death of Jesus is central to both Paul and to each of the Gospel writers. But why did he die? And what relation did his death have to salvation? The answer depends on which author you read.
Mark is clear that Jesus' death brought about an atonement for sin. As Jesus himself states in an early chapter of Mark: “The Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give life as a ransom for many” (Mark 10:45). The death of Jesus ransoms others from the debt they owe to God because of sin; it is an atoning sacrifice.
Luke used Mark's Gospel as a source for his own, adding, deleting and altering Mark's words as he saw fit. And what did he do with this current verse? He completely deleted it. Why would Luke delete the verse? Possibly he has a different understanding of Jesus' death.
In this connection it is striking that in Mark, the “evidence” that Jesus' death brought an atonement is found immediately after Jesus dies, when the curtain in the Temple is ripped in half, showing that in Jesus' death people have access to God. But Luke changes the timing : the ripping of the curtain occurs while Jesus is still living. Many scholars think this is significant.: the ripping of curtain no longer signifies the atoning sacrifice of Jesus' death but the judgment of God on the Temple of the Jews a symbolic statement that it will be destroyed.
So what is the reason for Jesus' death in Luke? The matter becomes clearer in Luke's second volume, the book of Acts, where the apostles preach about the salvation that has come in Christ in order to convert others to faith. In none of these missionary sermons is there a single word about Jesus' death being an atonement. Instead the constant message is that people are guilty for rejecting the one sent from God and having him killed. The death of the innocent one(Jesus) should make people repent of their sins and turn to God, so he can forgive them (Acts 2:36-38; 3:17-19). Luke's view is that salvation comes not through an atoning sacrifice but by forgiveness that comes from repentence.
But aren't atonement and forgiveness the same thing? Not at all. It's like this; suppose you owe me a hundred dollars but can't pay. There are a couple of ways the problem could be solved. Someone else (a friend, your brother, your parents) could pay the hundred dollars for you. That would be like atonement; someone else pays pays your penalty.. Or, instead of that, I could simply say, :Never mind, I don't need money”. That would be like forgiveness, in which no one pays and God simply forgives the debt.
The death of Jesus is important to both Mark and Luke. But for Mark, his death is an atonemet; for Luke, it is the reason people realize they are sinful and need to turn to God for forgiveness. The reason for Jesus' death, then is quite different, depending on which author of N.T you read.
Please think over
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ April 22 2010,15:27) Quote (kerwin @ April 22 2010,19:57) So following the law is not irrelevant to salvation but rather it is inefficent.
So Paul made God who gave the Law inefficient?
I think you ate trying to state Paul teaches that God make an inefficent law.You really should be careful not to be a fault finder.
God himself stated through the prophet Jeremiah that the Law he gave to the people of Isreal and Judah was flawed when compared to the new covenant.
Jeremiah 31:32(NIV) reads:
Quote It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them, ”
declares the LORD.And this next passage speaks of the new covant these false Jews now reject because they do not believe what God states.
Jeremiah 31:33-34(NIV) reads:
Quote “This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time,” declares the LORD.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the LORD.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”Hi brother Kerwin,
Christianity is very much audament in teaching that God's laws are inefficient. See for yourself God never told His laws are insufficient or inefficient as you claim here. Please see the verses you quoted above God never told He will change laws in the new covenant but he will put the same (old) laws in the Israel's heart and He will re-establish the same laws to follow properly. Paul had misinterpreted God's scriptures to nullify or abolish God's laws. That is too much on Christianity to escape God's statutes and laws.Hi GM,
You are in no position to judge the anointed teachers like Paul are you?
Judging the Spirit in them is most unwise.Please read this:
I. The concept of a “New Covenant” replacing the various Covenants between G-d and the Jewish people is illegitimate.
A. The Torah as a Contract
The Torah (the Five books of Moses, i.e. Genesis through Deuteronomy), which constitutes the basis of Jewish Law and the prophecy of Moshe Rabeinu (Moses our teacher), tells us in several places that it is also an “Everlasting Covenant” between Israel and the All Mighty. In the 28th and 29th Chapters of Deuteronomy we see a summary of the terms (also described in Leviticus) of the contract. It instructs us that if we observe the mitzvot (commandments described throughout the Torah), we would receive manifold blessings, but if not there would be series of punishments, each increasingly worse. But at any time, the Torah says, we can “cure” (a legal term for resolving any breach of contract) our breach of contract by doing tshuva (repentence) and once again observing the mitzvot.
B. The Torah Cannot Be Replaced
In the Book of Deuteronomy G-d tells us that He has given us the complete Torah and that, “Lo bashamayim hee” (It shall not come from Heaven), there would be no further revelations related to the Law or amendments to the Contract. Deut. 30:12. See also Deut. 4:2 (“Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your G-d which I command you.”)
C. There Have Been Many “New Covenants,” But None Has or Can Replace the Torah
The Covenant at Mt. Sinai was not the first, nor the last covenant between G-d and the Jewish people. See, e.g. Gen. 8 (with Noah); Gen. 17 (with Abraham); Gen. 28:10-22 (with Jacob); Joshua 1 (with Jews who entered Israel). In every case, the prior covenant was not replaced, but merely reaffirmed, expanded or codified existing practice. Not one of those covenants is or has ever been “obsolete.” Yet, missionaries claim that the Torah — G-d's Covenant with the Jewish people as a whole — has been superceded by a “New Covenant” and replaced by a “New Testament.” Hebrews 8:13. In support of their position they refer to the Jeremiah 31:31-34 where the prophet predicted that there would be a “new covenant” in the Messianic Age. Indeed, Jeremiah did make such a prediction, but the verse implies no rejection of the Covenant of the Torah (aka “the Law”), but rather says that the Law shall be “inscribed in the hearts” of the Jewish people (i.e. they will not have to study the Law, as before, but all of its details will be known “by heart” and practiced by every Jew without question.
D. The “New Testament's” Differing Views of the Torah
The main source for missionaries in their claim that G-d has supplanted Judaism with Christianity is the Christian Bible. Yet, it appears to be an unreliable source and the result of a tortured editing process between the followers of Paul, and those of James, the half-brother of Jesus. This is especially apparent with regard to their different views of Torah law. The Epistles of Paul say not only that the Torah was replaced by the “New Covenant,” but that is also something that was “obsolete” (Heb. 8:13), “kills” (2 Corin. 3:6) and a “curse” (Galatians 3:13). This is not only an insult to the Jewish people, but an insult to G-d! Missionaries who follow these teachings (nearly all of them as far as I can tell) suggest that G-d knew, when He gave the Torah to the Jewish people, that they would never be able to fulfill it. Put another way, G-d created doomed His Chosen people from the start and that He had no intention to fulfill all of the promises He made in His contract with them. This is absurd. Why would G-d do that? Was the Omniscient G-d only playing with us? This view of Paul that the Torah was impossible to follow is directly contradicted by the Torah itself. The Torah, it says, “is not too hard for thee, neither is it far off.” Deut. 30:11. King David called the Torah Laws “perfect,” “sure, making wise the simple,” and “pure, enlightening the eyes.” Ps. 19:8-9. Compare Paul's comments with those by Jesus and James. Jesus, himself accepted the Torah as obligatory, saying that not only was the Written Torah eternal, but accepted the understanding of the Pharisees (the rabbis whose teachings would be later recorded in the Mishna, which is part of the Talmud) that the Written Torah is supplemented by an Oral Torah which provides details about how to fulfill the commandments, and that these regulations were taught by Moses and passed down from generation to generation. In Matt. 23:2-3, Jesus says that the Pharisees “sit in the seat of Moses; therefore all they tell you, do and observe.” His brother James, too, required strict observance of the Torah Law in its entirety. James 2:10-11. These conflicting testimonies, along with numerous explicit contradictions between the Christian Bible and the Hebrew Scriptures, makes the Christian Bible suspect either as an accurate historical account or as the Word of G-d.
Source: http://judaism.about.com/od/jewishviewofjesus/a/jesus_nobel.htm
Quote (gollamudi @ April 23 2010,11:36) Hi brother Nick,
Please see the truth in my posts.Thanks and peace to ytou
Adam
Hi Gollamudi,“The Jews”(Judah) are but 1/12 of “The Children of Israel”!
When are you going to see the light? יהוה האלהים “is the Light”=117
The New “Testament”=117 was given to us by means of יהוה האלהים! (John 3:16)“YHVH is GOD”=117
PSALM 117 is [The Bible's Center Chapter], the [smallest chapter] of the [LARGEST BOOK]!Witnessing to the world in behalf of… (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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