How to love God?

[Jefe Gordo]

The times have changed. But God has not. We know from scripture that He does not change. So, killing an infant was acceptable given the timeframe and the human circumstances? Those circumstances certainly don't exist today (maybe in some extreme/bizarre cases). Perhaps I'm just too uneducated on the historical context of the Amalekite situation. It was a dog-eat-dog world as I've heard but couldn't they have spared at least some of the babies.

I do try to trust God's plan – past, present, and future. In reading scripture I've found it to be remarkable consistent in the connections it makes in all other subjects but with this one I find myself saying “well I trust God had a reason for killing babies” even though He, for some reason, doesn't say why”. I don't want to have to do that but it looks like it is a test of our faith.

I've heard atheists and anti-Christians say things like “Christians paint this picture of an all-loving, merciful God but that is far from the truth when you read the Old Testament and see some of the merciless things He commanded”. The Old Testament is a stumbling block for so many people. I want to have good answers for them.

Sorry for the attacking tone of my posts. Needless to say, I've been having a hard time with this.

[acertainchap]

Don't listen to atheists and anti-christians they will try to lead you astray. Man all I can say is trust God and his mysterious ways.

This is an extreme test of faith trusting him in the event of knowing that his plan included “killing babies.”

[NickHassan]

Hi,
John 8:42
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
John 16:27
For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
1 Corinthians 8:3
But if any man love God, the same is known of him.
1 John 2:5
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1 John 4:20
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
1 John 4:21
And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

[kenrch]

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

2Jo 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

[Jefe Gordo]

Kenrch & Nick,
Thank you for the verses. I understand from them that love isn't the happy, hippie love that people ascribe to God. It is following His commandments at which point all other forms of love fall into place. Do I have that right?

But what if following God's commandments means killing an infant baby? Is that love? As someone with a deep belief in God, I trust that His decisions, however harsh, are right in the end. But what of the unbeliever who sees the killing of babies as a huge stumbling block to belief (understandably so)? What do I tell them?

Do I tell them that following God's command is what love is about even if it means killing a child? I'm sure I'll be immediately compared to a suicide bomber.

When someone asks you how God (God is love) can give an order to kill the Amalekite children what is your response? I've heard a few so far (thank you the responses) but I'd like to get everyones. Thanks.

[NickHassan]

Hi JG,
What is written is written.
It is up to you to grasp it in the total of it's revelation.
We do not judge or need to justify anything the Potter does with His clay.

[kenrch]

Quote (Jefe Gordo @ June 22 2007,04:09)

Kenrch & Nick, Thank you for the verses. I understand from them that love isn't the happy, hippie love that people ascribe to God. It is following His commandments at which point all other forms of love fall into place. Do I have that right? But what if following God's commandments means killing an infant baby? Is that love? As someone with a deep belief in God, I trust that His decisions, however harsh, are right in the end. But what of the unbeliever who sees the killing of babies as a huge stumbling block to belief (understandably so)? What do I tell them? Do I tell them that following God's command is what love is about even if it means killing a child? I'm sure I'll be immediately compared to a suicide bomber. When someone asks you how God (God is love) can give an order to kill the Amalekite children what is your response? I've heard a few so far (thank you the responses) but I'd like to get everyones. Thanks.

Quote

Thank you for the verses. I understand from them that love isn't the happy, hippie love that people ascribe to God. It is following His commandments at which point all other forms of love fall into place. Do I have that right?

Right!

We must let God be God. Thou shalt not kill (murder). Why would God seem to break His own Law? Because He knows the beginning from the end. God is Love. All things work together for the good for those who are led by the Spirit. When going through trials we ask WHY. Why? For our good not God's!

Trust God. God gets no pleasure in destroying anybody or I believe ANYTHING. This is why I don't believe in eternal punishing. Burning people forever and ever would prove what? What good would come out of burning people forever? God in is “mercy” will burn the tares up.

Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

IHN&L,

Ken

[942767]

Quote (Jefe Gordo @ June 21 2007,07:13)

acertainchap, I think you are probably right.God seems to want us to hold a reverent respect for Him and His power. My reason for starting this thread stems from some of the doubts that have entered my mind upon reading the Old Testament. Most of the responses I receive when I ask other Christians their opinion on difficult subject matter is that I should trust God because I can't understand His ways. The responses here on Heaven.net have been considerably more gentle and thorough however. (Thank you all) Anyhow, I've been trying to reconcile the morality that Christ taught in the Gospels and placed in our heart via the Holy Spirit vs. the morality of the Old Testament. In many ways they seem incompatible. In the story of the Amalekites God ordered that all men, WOMEN, AND CHILDREN be killed. Based on the teachings of Christ and with the Holy Spirit bearing witness to me I would say that today, killing infants and toddlers is NEVER acceptable. No matter how evil and sick their families or culture is or was, killing an infant baby is WRONG and I pray it is wrong in God's eyes too. If it was acceptable (not desired but acceptable) with my God long ago why does my God-given conscience tell me it is so horribly wrong now? I need help on this. I've always assumed the Old Testament to be true and accurate and not fables or tales as some believe but I can't seem to see how Jesus would have approved of such an action. The only conclusion I've  come to is that God doesn't view death as we do. To Him, death is the entrance into a beautiful new level of existence (at least for the children killed) and is not a sad thing at all. That is comforting for me but it still leaves the problem of…. Would Jesus say it is ok to kill infant babies in that situation? If God commanded me to kill a baby or my small son (Abraham & Isaac) I would assume it was an evil spirit misleading me. Would anyone here be able to do it?

Hi Jefe:

I have already given you my understanding that judgement against God's enemies in the Old Testament was final.  They and their children for whom the parents were responsible are dead.  They will not incur further judgment.

I wanted to respond to you on the following statement:

You say:

Quote

Would Jesus say it is ok to kill infant babies in that situation? If God commanded me to kill a baby or my small son (Abraham & Isaac) I would assume it was an evil spirit misleading me. Would anyone here be able to do it?

God would not tell you to kill any one, and so if you hear any thing like this you had better believe that it is an evil spirit speaking to you.  

God was testing Abraham's faith or trust in what God had told him relative to Isaac being his heir, and Abraham trusted God enough to know that even if Isaac died that God was able to raise him from the dead.  But God stopped Abraham from sacrificing Isaac.  Also, there is a lot of symbolism in the Old Testament.  This symbolized God giving his Only Begotten Son as a sacrifice for the propiation of our sins.  If you notice in these scriptures, there is a ram caught in the thicket.

Ge 22:8
And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

Gen22:13
And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.  
22:14
And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.  
22:15
And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,  
22:16
And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:  
22:17
That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;  
22:18
And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.  

There is no unrighteousness in God.  He is Holy.

God Bless

[Jefe Gordo]

Thank you all for your responses. Sorry for my tone in these posts. It must be frustrating trying to get your point across to me.

Don't worry 942767, I don't hear voices in my head to kill anyone I have always understood the Abraham and Isaac story as largely symbolic and a test of faith. It was the God-given duty of the Israelite soldier that would be impossible for me to follow through with. Then again, God had a direct relationship with the Israelites and even lived among them so perhaps they had a better understanding of His mercy and plan.

Thanks for your posts on judgement as well. Very interesting and I took them to heart. Thank you all for your support. I've been a member for a while now but rarely post. The repsonses to my recent posts have been excellent though. God Bless.

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
You say
“I have already given you my understanding that judgement against God's enemies in the Old Testament was final.  They and their children for whom the parents were responsible are dead.  They will not incur further judgment.”

And who from that era is not physically dead?
Will some who have died not be resurrected unto judgement?
Is it written?

[942767]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 26 2007,07:06)

Hi 94, You say “I have already given you my understanding that judgement against God's enemies in the Old Testament was final.  They and their children for whom the parents were responsible are dead.  They will not incur further judgment.” And who from that era is not physically dead? Will some who have died not be resurrected unto judgement? Is it written?

Hi Nick:

I have previously discussed my understanding of this subject with you and I have given you scripture showing you why I believe that those in the Old Testament have already been judged and will not be resurrected to incur further judgement.

I don't see any need to keep repeating the same thing over and again.

God Bless

[michaels]

prais god for the fear of god is the beggining of wisdom,we sould all fear him for he is abba adoni that means father lord master and owner,should we not fear him who made all things,who has the power to giveth or take life,walk after ritchesness and truth keep his commandments and that fear will become an awe for for him for he is awsome and mightily to be praised

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