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Hello everyone.
I've been a member of the forum for some time but have posted only a handful of times. This forum has been a great way for me to compare my prior beliefs to what the Word of God really says. The transition from sand to rock is kind of uncomfortable at times so I'm looking for help on this particular issue.
I find myself “fearing” the Lord as much or more than I find myself “loving” Him. I know that there is a “healthy” fear of the Lord but I don't want that to inhibit the freedom He offers through total forgiveness. My wife and I recently had a baby girl (our first). Any father can attest to the fact that you will never feel as blessed and loved by your heavenly Father as you do when you hold your baby girl. There were no doubt, many baby girls among the Amelkites that were killed. No matter how I slice it that doesn't seem right. I know I'm wrong and that God is perfectly just so I trust in Him. But that trust is based on fear and not love. This is only part of the dynamic range of emotions I experience in my relationship with God but it hopefully illustrates the balance of fear and love that exists.
How does the fear of the Lord work in your faith? I know it should be as the fear a child has for their father all the while loving them but I can't seem to align certain things (the Amalekite example) while that type of healthy fear. Is there something wrong with me?
We should have a healthy fear of displeasing him. It should not be a morbid fear though.
IF “God is love,” as the Bible describes him, why should it be necessary to fear him? (1 John 4:16) Love and fear are generally regarded as incompatible.
In most languages a single word can have various shades of meaning, depending on the context. For instance, in some languages one may say: “I love ice cream” and also, “I love my children.” There is a great difference in the intensity of and types of love being expressed. Similarly, the Bible speaks of different types of fear. When it uses the word in connection with worshiping God, it is not referring to terror, fright, or a sense of impending punishment.
It must be noted that we are all imperfect, and God knows this.
“If errors were what you watch, O Jah, O Jehovah, who could stand? For there is the true forgiveness with you, in order that you may be feared.” (Psalm 130:3, 4)By contrast, a person whose conscience does not restrain him from displeasing God has reason to be in fear in a very different way. Just as human governments punish criminal elements, God has the right to act against willful, unrepentant wrongdoers. God’s temporary permission of wickedness has allowed some to become hardened in a wrong course.
“It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God,” wrote the apostle Paul. (Hebrews 10:31)Now, the amelekites.
The Amalekites were “the first one of the nations” to launch an unprovoked attack on the Israelites after the Exodus, at Rephidim near Mount Sinai. As a consequence, Jehovah decreed ultimate extinction for the Amalekites. (Nu 24:20; Ex 17:8-16; De 25:17-19)
A year later, when the Israelites attempted to enter the Promised Land contrary to Jehovah’s word, they were repulsed by the Amalekites. (Nu 14:41-45)
Twice during the days of the Judges these adversaries of Israel shared in assaulting Israel. They did it in the days of Eglon king of Moab. (Jg 3:12, 13)
Again, with the Midianites and Easterners, they pillaged the land of Israel seven years before Gideon and his 300 men dealt them a smashing defeat.—Jg 6:1-3, 33; 7:12; 10:12.
Because of this persistent hatred, during the period of the kings Jehovah ‘called to account’ the Amalekites, commanding King Saul to strike them down.
Thus the Amalekites, along with others mentioned by name, were exterminated in order “that people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth.”—Ps 83:6-18.
In the Bible, it seems that parents have a great responsibility for their children while they are still children. I would suggest that you do everything in your power to not let your child become an Amelikite, someone who fights against God's people.
Hi Jeffe,
Congrats on your new baby girl, we had our third one about 3 weeks ago – what a blessing. I thought I would comment briefly on a couple of issues you raised.With regard to the “fear of the Lord”, I understand this to mean 'awe' and/or 'reverence', rather than the effect of being frightened by YHWH. Although this may be incumbant as well, especially when the unrighteous face the Lord at judgement. This may put things in context for you.
With regard to the Amalekite example, I guess the issue is – Does an Almighty Creator have the right to bring some of His creation from one phase of existence (on Earth) to the next? To me this seems reasonable, given that the latter would be incomparably more euphoric. I also believe that there is some good scriptural evidence that young children who could have developed no concept of the law, and the ramifications of ignoring it, will not be judged under it. There appears to be an age of accountability, and young children are exempt from condemnation.
I would also say there was purpose in the deaths of Israel's enemies. The messianic line was to come through them, hence they needed to be protected from annihilation, and the Messiah was prophesied to be born in Israel, hence the need for the Jews to be untreatened occupiers of the land at that time. So the deaths of the their enemies was an absolute necessity in order that all mankind had a solution to their sin problem.
My thought for what they're worth.
Blessings
Hi,
God's dealings in the OT should make us very aware of the privileged position of safety we owe to our Master. God Himself is awesomely powerful and just because He waits patiently till the day when the door will be closed it gives no men room to be complacent, for He is to be feared.Quote Does an Almighty Creator have the right to bring some of His creation from one phase of existence (on Earth) to the next? To me this seems reasonable, given that the latter would be incomparably more euphoric. This is a great point and very well stated. I would agree that He definitely has the right and I would think that the innocent killed would be justly compensated afterward. I guess when I consider that God gave the command to have even the little children put to the sword it does bring about some amount of fear but not necessarily the “good” kind that david spoke of in his post. On the other hand I do feel quite loved and blessed because as Nick H. mentioned I live in relative safety. There again is the balance of fear and love.
Though most of the fear I have is of “awe and reverence” the Amalekite story is one that brings about a more “frightful” fear. I can't imagine being on of the Israelites commanded to kill woman and children. I guess things were different back then though. God is holy and all-powerful and that is why I trust His actions to be pure and beyond me.
Thank you all for your posts. They were very helpful and I feel better
Glad I could help Jeffe. BTW, I don't take credit for the idea you quoted me on, I heard Bon Enyart (kgov.com) make it to an atheist in a radio debate a few months back. I thought it was insightful when I heard it too.
As for the Amalekites, without reading it, I can assume that they were killed and this was God's will.
If not then forgive me, but I know there are other examples where God commanded the Israelites to slaughter a people, children and all.
Here is my take:
Human genealogies are like branches on a tree. There is a trunk and there are branches. Now in the human tree, there are some branches that produce more fruit than others and some branches are literally dead in that the life giving sap of the tree doesn't nourish that part of the tree.
My point is this. God wants to take souls from this tree and plant them into the eternal vine and he is most certainly doing this. But the original tree needed to last for 6000 years or whatever period of time it is before the whole tree is uprooted and destroyed. So in order to preserve the tree for that time, he did/does what any gardener does, he prunes it.
Now on the outset pruning a tree doesn't seem barbaric rather it is a good thing, but when we see children getting slaughtered we see it somewhat differently.
But perhaps we need to see it like this. If God preserved that branch instead of cutting it off, then that would means more souls will grow there and they will be subjected to the ungodly practices that has caused that branch to be unfruitful (dry up) in the first place. So leaving the branch (or the ungodly family) to continue also seems barbaric. When people are born, they are subjected to ungodliness their whole lives and may never get the chance to choose God and his ways.
So God is simply pruning the tree and giving the souls that are born a better environment by cutting off the wicked branches.
The other thing to take into account is that children belong to the Kingdom of God, so where they go is much better than where they came from.
If we see the big picture we would truly know that God is love and he is merciful.
Luke 23:31
For if men do these things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?”Jeremiah 23:5
“The days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land.Jeremiah 33:15
” 'In those days and at that time I will make a righteous Branch sprout from David's line; he will do what is just and right in the land.Psalm 37:28
For the LORD loves the just and will not forsake his faithful ones. They will be protected forever, but the offspring of the wicked will be cut off;Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed; the future of the wicked will be cut off.Psalm 101:8
Every morning I will put to silence all the wicked in the land; I will cut off every evildoer from the city of the LORD.Proverbs 2:22
but the wicked will be cut off from the land, and the unfaithful will be torn from it.John 15:2
He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.Hi Jefe
I’ve just recently been asking myself similar questions. I’ve been saved for many years. I’ve always been secure in knowing God by my experience of the Holy Spirit. Despite that there are a number of questions I’m seeking answers for things that don’t always make sense.
One thing that specifically has sat on my mind is the brutality of the Old Testament, so much bloodshed. I recently read the books Samuel 1 and 2 and gave consideration to the Amalekite’s and of the other tribes.
One of the factors that seems apparent in the Old Testament is a dog eat dog scenario where there was constant fighting. As a means of survival it was essential to wipe out your enemy before they come back for you at a later time.
In passage 2 Samuel 11:1 (New Living Translation)
1 In the spring, at the time when kings go off to war, David sent Joab out with the king's men and the whole Israelite army. They destroyed the Ammonites and besieged Rabbah. But David remained in Jerusalem.
This suggests war was a customary activity between kings. Searching through other translations on biblegateway.com comes up with similar analogies.
Looking at the old covenant it was far from satisfactory to God. God tolerated the sinful nature of man who sought God. The sins which seems terrible to us, however all sin is sin. It seems that was all God had that he could work with.
Reading Old Testament takes a different mindset I find challenging to understand myself.
Da-Alien
Alien in a strange worldThanks for your post Da-Alien. Sorry I haven't posted in a while.
I suppose my problem is reading the Old Testament with a different mindset. However, I can't help but picture myself as an an Israelite soldier standing in front of a cute 4 year old girl with an order to end her life with my sword. I know for a fact that I could not do it. I believe the Holy Spirit would tell me today that killing a 4 year old girl is wrong. Period. No exceptions. It doesn't matter what her parents are guilty of or if her lineage makes her more prone to an ungodly or violent existence.
I recognize the awesone sovereignty of our God and I know that those children will experience a far greater existence in Heaven. It is short-sighted to only think of their death on earth. However, could any of us here on this forum follow-through with those orders today? I know I couldn't. I would show mercy as I believe the Holy Spirit would tell me to. Why was it not like that back then.
Forgive me for prodding the same subject matter again in this post. In all the remarkable connections and consistencies between the New and Old Testaments this is the one I have the hardest time understanding in light of the way Christ led his life.
Thanks all. God Bless.
Hi All:
God is a God of love but he also a God of justice. In the Old Testament what you are describing is Judgment against God's enemies. Parents are responsible for the Children and what they teach them. Although killing their children might appear to be brutal, it is the fault of the parents that this has happened. Let me also say that physical death is a reality. Some die of this and others of that and these were killed by the sword. These people had ample opportunity to serve God but chose instead to fight against Him. My understanding is that this was the judgment rendered by God against them. They will not be resurrected to incur further judgment.
In the New Testament Jesus says, John 12:47
And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last dayAnd so in the Old Testament Judgment against God's ememies has already been rendered by the flood in Noah's day, against Sodom and Gomorrha in Abraham's day, against Pharaoh an his army as they pursued the Nation of Israel by drowning them in the Red Sea, against those nations in Canaan whom God destroyed by the sword etc.
In the New Testament Judgment will be withheld until the last day. Those who receive the mark of the beast who are alive at the coming of the Lord will be judged by the seven last plagues. Those who are dead and not in the body of Christ will be resurrected and judged according to their works,
I hope this helps. There is no need to fear God if we are in the body of Christ and are striving to obey him. If we make a mistake, he will forgive us when we repent. He is a God of mercy.
1Jo 4:17
Herein is our * * love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.1Jo 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment *. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.God Bless
Thanks for your reply 942767. If you would, please clarify on your point on judgement. So the people killed in the flood as you said, are they done. Having received their judgement, will they be resurrected to face Christ at the Great White Throne or are they eternally destroyed at this point.
I guess I just assumed all judgement (I suppose the flood was a judgement but I mean the eternal variety) happened after the 1000 years. Are you saying that for some, the judgement received on earth is their “final” judgement. I apologize if I've become needlessly confused.
Quote There is no need to fear God if we are in the body of Christ and are striving to obey him. If we make a mistake, he will forgive us when we repent. He is a God of mercy. The little children of the Amalekites had to fear him though they had done nothing wrong. I agree with you that it is their parents fault for bringing that judgement upon them. When bad things happen in our world people often blame God when it is our fault for ruining everything with our sin. However, in this case, God directly ordered the children to be slaughtered.
That is so hard for me to swallow. I want to better understand it as I view God to be merciful just as you do (I have experienced that mercy first hand).
Is my main problem that I try to put this story into a modern frame? I feel like I have a solid understanding and appreciation of God's holiness and sovereignty. Who is the clay to question the potter? Having a 6 month old girl myself, I just have such a hard time accepting that God could have ordered one killed.
Sorry my post has digressed into a therapeutic rant. I don't know what kind of answer or comfort I'm looking for but this is one of only a couple places in scripture I have a hard time dealing with. I want to love God with all my heart and soul.
Thanks for hearing me out.
God Bless
Hi Jefe:
I understand where you are coming from when you have a hard time accepting that God would order children killed. I used to have a hard time reading the Old Testament because I did not understand why God would do this among other things such as use the Babylonians to punish the Nation of Israel and then punish them for doing what he wanted them to do. Also, used to have a hard time understanding why Jesus spoke to the Pharisees the way that he did, and so, I had to ask God for understanding because I knew that there had to be reasons for the things that he did.
Many a time I have had to go to the last chapter of the book of Job to settle my mind on things that I did not understand pertaining to God. Job did not understand why he was suffering the things that he was suffering, and he and those ministering to him were saying things about God as they tried to understand. I'll share the scripture to which I am referring below:
Job 38
38:1
Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
38:2
Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
38:3
Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
38:4
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
38:5
Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest ? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
38:6
Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened ? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
38:7
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
38:8
Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
38:9
When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
38:10
And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
38:11
And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed ?
38:12
Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;
38:13
That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
38:14
It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
38:15
And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.
38:16
Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?
38:17
Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?
38:18
Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.
38:19
Where is the way where light dwelleth ? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,
38:20
That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?
38:21
Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born ? or because the number of thy days is great?
38:22
Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,
38:23
Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?
38:24
By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?
38:25
Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;
38:26
To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;
38:27
To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth ?
38:28
Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?
38:29
Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?
38:30
The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.
38:31
Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?
38:32
Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?
38:33
Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?
38:34
Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?
38:35
Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee, Here we are?
38:36
Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?
38:37
Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven,
38:38
When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together ?
38:39
Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions,
38:40
When they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait?
38:41
Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.
Job 39
39:1
Knowest thou the time when the wild goats of the rock bring forth ? or canst thou mark when the hinds do calve ?
39:2
Canst thou number the months that they fulfil ? or knowest thou the time when they bring forth ?
39:3
They bow themselves, they bring forth their young ones, they cast out their sorrows.
39:4
Their young ones are in good liking, they grow up with corn; they go forth, and return not unto them.
39:5
Who hath sent out the wild ass free? or who hath loosed the bands of the wild ass?
39:6
Whose house I have made the wilderness, and the barren land his dwellings.
39:7
He scorneth the multitude of the city, neither regardeth he the crying of the driver.
39:8
The range of the mountains is his pasture, and he searcheth after every green thing.
39:9
Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib?
39:10
Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after thee?
39:11
Wilt thou trust him, because his strength is great? or wilt thou leave thy labour to him?
39:12
Wilt thou believe him, that he will bring home (8686) thy seed, and gather it into thy barn?
39:13
Gavest thou the goodly wings unto the peacocks ? or wings and feathers unto the ostrich?
39:14
Which leaveth her eggs in the earth, and warmeth them in dust,
39:15
And forgetteth that the foot may crush them, or that the wild beast may break them.
39:16
She is hardened against her young ones, as though they were not hers: her labour is in vain without fear;
39:17
Because God hath deprived her of wisdom, neither hath he imparted to her understanding.
39:18
What time she lifteth up herself on high, she scorneth the horse and his rider.
39:19
Hast thou given the horse strength? hast thou clothed his neck with thunder?
39:20
Canst thou make him afraid as a grasshopper? the glory of his nostrils is terrible.
39:21
He paweth in the valley, and rejoiceth in his strength: he goeth on to meet the armed men.
39:22
He mocketh at fear, and is not affrighted; neither turneth he back from the sword.
39:23
The quiver rattleth against him, the glittering spear and the shield.
39:24
He swalloweth the ground with fierceness and rage: neither believeth he that it is the sound of the trumpet.
39:25
He saith among the trumpets, Ha, ha; and he smelleth the battle afar off, the thunder of the captains, and the shouting.
39:26
Doth the hawk fly by thy wisdom, and stretch her wings toward the south?
39:27
Doth the eagle mount up at thy command, and make her nest on high ?
39:28
She dwelleth and abideth on the rock, upon the crag of the rock, and the strong place.
39:29
From thence she seeketh the prey, and her eyes behold afar off.
39:30
Her young ones also suck up blood: and where the slain are, there is she.
Job 40
40:1
Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said,
40:2
Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.
40:3
Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
40:4
Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.
40:5
Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further.
40:6
Then answered the LORD unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
40:7
Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
40:8
Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous ?
40:9
Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?
40:10
Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty.
40:11
Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him.
40:12
Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place.
40:13
Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret.
40:14
Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.
40:15
Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.
40:16
Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.
40:17
He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.
40:18
His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.
40:19
He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.
40:20
Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play.
40:21
He lieth under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens.
40:22
The shady trees cover him with their shadow; the willows of the brook compass him about.
40:23
Behold, he drinketh up a river, and hasteth not: he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth.
40:24
He taketh it with his eyes: his nose pierceth through snares.
Job 41
41:1
Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down ?
41:2
Canst thou put an hook into his nose? or bore his jaw through with a thorn?
41:3
Will he make many supplications unto thee? will he speak soft words unto thee?
41:4
Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?
41:5
Wilt thou play with him as with a bird? or wilt thou bind him for thy maidens?
41:6
Shall the companions make a banquet of him? shall they part him among the merchants?
41:7
Canst thou fill his skin with barbed irons? or his head with fish spears?
41:8
Lay thine hand upon him, remember the battle, do no more.
41:9
Behold, the hope of him is in vain: shall not one be cast down even at the sight of him?
41:10
None is so fierce that dare stir him up (8799) : who then is able to stand before me?
41:11
Who hath prevented me, that I should repay him? whatsoever is under the whole heaven is mine.
41:12
I will not conceal his parts, nor his power *, nor his comely proportion.
41:13
Who can discover the face of his garment? or who can come to him with his double bridle?
41:14
Who can open the doors of his face? his teeth are terrible round about.
41:15
His scales are his pride, shut up together as with a close seal.
41:16
One is so near to another, that no air can come between them.
41:17
They are joined one to another, they stick together, that they cannot be sundered.
41:18
By his neesings a light doth shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning.
41:19
Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out.
41:20
Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron.
41:21
His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth.
41:22
In his neck remaineth strength, and sorrow is turned into joy before him.
41:23
The flakes of his flesh are joined together: they are firm in themselves; they cannot be moved.
41:24
His heart is as firm as a stone; yea, as hard as a piece of the nether millstone.
41:25
When he raiseth up himself, the mighty are afraid: by reason of breakings they purify themselves.
41:26
The sword of him that layeth at him cannot hold: the spear, the dart, nor the habergeon.
41:27
He esteemeth iron as straw, and brass as rotten wood.
41:28
The arrow cannot make him flee: slingstones are turned with him into stubble.
41:29
Darts are counted as stubble: he laugheth at the shaking of a spear.
41:30
Sharp stones are under him: he spreadeth sharp pointed things upon the mire.
41:31
He maketh the deep to boil like a pot: he maketh the sea like a pot of ointment.
41:32
He maketh a path to shine after him; one would think the deep to be hoary.
41:33
Upon earth there is not his like, who is made without fear.
41:34
He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride.
Job 42
42:1
Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
42:2
I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
42:3
Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
42:4
Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
42:5
I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
42:6
Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.Actually, Jefe if we want to know why God does things the way that he does, we can go to him in prayer and ask him. Of course, we do not want to disrespect him, but we can talk to him just as you and I are talking. He loves us.
When we have seen Jesus we have seen God's love for humanity manifest through his life, his sufferings, and his death.
1Jo 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.But God will not take a person's free will. It has to be their decision as to whether or not they choose to obey God or not. Many times when every thing in person's life are going well they have no need for God, and so, God allows the troubles of this world so that people will turn to him in those moments of crisis. He is not willing that any man should perish put all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)
Now about judgment. I know some may teach differently than my understanding, but no, I do believe that those in the Old Testament have been judged already, and will not be resurrected to incur further judgment.
God's instruction to Adam and Eve was that they should not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and He told them that the consequence for disobedience was death.
Genesis
3:17
And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
3:18
Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
3:19
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.3:17
And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for
thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
3:18
Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
3:19
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.Those who lived in the time of Adam until the flood suffered the same judgment.
Romans
5:12
Wherefore *, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
5:13
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.Those in the time of Noah were judged by the flood waters.
Ge 6:13
And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.When God was in the process of delivering the Nation of Israel out of bondage to Pharoah he said the following to Moses and to him:
Exodus 9:13
And the LORD said unto Moses, Rise up early in the morning, and stand before Pharaoh, and say unto him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me.
9:14
For I will at this time send all my plagues upon thine heart, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people; that thou mayest know that there is none like me in all the earth.
9:15
For now I will stretch out my hand, that I may smite thee and thy people with pestilence; and thou shalt be cut off from the earth.
9:16
And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.By these judgments God's purpose is that the people would hear and turn to him so that he would not have to destroy them. Those who did not want to see their families destroyed had the opportunity to turn to the Lord instead of fighting against him. Certainly you would think that people would not want to see their children destroyed, and so, this would be reason enough to serve the Lord. But some of these people even offered their own children as a sacrifice to strange gods. What ever the Lord does, it is with the purpose of saving those who will be saved.
With respect to judgment in the Old Testament to further show that they will not be resurrected to incur further judgment, I'll just paste the following scriptures below:
Jude
1:7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like * * manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.This scripture says that Sodom and Gomorrha suffered the vengeance of eternal fire.
10:28
He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: (this was judgment to those under the law)
10:29
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
10:30
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.The greater the revelation of God's plan the more severe the judgment. Today we have the full revelation, and therefore, the judgment will be more severe.
I don't know if I have answered your questions, and this post has become quite lengthy, but if you have further questions, please ask. I'll be happy to share my understanding with you.
God Bless
942767, I want to genuinely thank you for your response. It is very encouraging to know you felt the same way as me. (I recently posted a new thread on Matthew 15 regarding the way Christ spoke to a Canaanite woman that relates) The Job selection did my heart some good.
Also, your position on judgment of those during the Old Testament is very interesting. I hope to engage you further on the subject in addition to more on the “hard to swallow” portions of the scripture. Unfortunately, I don't have the time right now.
I just wanted to thank you for your response. Truly. Talk to you again soon.
God Bless
Having a fear of his omnipotence and fear for breaking his laws is totally different then being fearful of God. In a way, he doesn't want you be afraid of him as in fearful of him, but more leaning toward being humble before him.
acertainchap,
I think you are probably right.God seems to want us to hold a reverent respect for Him and His power.My reason for starting this thread stems from some of the doubts that have entered my mind upon reading the Old Testament. Most of the responses I receive when I ask other Christians their opinion on difficult subject matter is that I should trust God because I can't understand His ways. The responses here on Heaven.net have been considerably more gentle and thorough however. (Thank you all)
Anyhow, I've been trying to reconcile the morality that Christ taught in the Gospels and placed in our heart via the Holy Spirit vs. the morality of the Old Testament. In many ways they seem incompatible. In the story of the Amalekites God ordered that all men, WOMEN, AND CHILDREN be killed.
Based on the teachings of Christ and with the Holy Spirit bearing witness to me I would say that today, killing infants and toddlers is NEVER acceptable. No matter how evil and sick their families or culture is or was, killing an infant baby is WRONG and I pray it is wrong in God's eyes too.
If it was acceptable (not desired but acceptable) with my God long ago why does my God-given conscience tell me it is so horribly wrong now? I need help on this. I've always assumed the Old Testament to be true and accurate and not fables or tales as some believe but I can't seem to see how Jesus would have approved of such an action.
The only conclusion I've come to is that God doesn't view death as we do. To Him, death is the entrance into a beautiful new level of existence (at least for the children killed) and is not a sad thing at all. That is comforting for me but it still leaves the problem of….
Would Jesus say it is ok to kill infant babies in that situation?
If God commanded me to kill a baby or my small son (Abraham & Isaac) I would assume it was an evil spirit misleading me. Would anyone here be able to do it?The times have changed I don't believe God would want that in the least bit. God's plan is mysterious but we must trust him. He had a plan back then and he most certainly has one now.
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