How is Jesus not God?

[Not3in1]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 01 2008,04:08)

Just Go to any of their Churches and the (ONLY) name you hear mentioned is Jesus, but hardly ever hears the Fathers name mentioned. They have completely replaced the Father with Jesus, some thing Jesus never Did , Jesus always made the Father the object of His full attention.

Bro Gene,

What you have mentioned is exactly the reason I decided to leave the church.

The Pastor (or whomever) would start out praying to the “Father” but then would switch unexpectedly during the prayer to “Jesus”.  Ultimately, they would be praying to Jesus and then end the prayer like this, “We ask this all in Jesus name, Amen.”  Well, hmmm?  Isn't that confusing!

When I came out of the trinitarian doctrine…….I didn't truly know my heavenly Father.  All that was taught was Jesus.

John 17:3

And this enternal life to know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom he has sent.

All most Christians know is Jesus……

[Not3in1]

Hi Keith,

Quote

Really, and how is that? Because I believe Yeshua is all those things to me and much more, is it a sin to call him my God and to worship him as such especially when I see his followers worshipping him and calling him God.

Most of his followers “praised the God in heaven” for giving such wisdom and power to a man, Jesus Christ.

Quote

So then the Father is not Lord? It sounds like you have 2 masters.

God has made Christ Lord (not LORD).
Jesus is my Master and Teacher, we are right to call him this – he said so. However, he also told us we have only one Father. Jesus told us that his Father is also our Father. Jesus told us that the very same Father is God.

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That’s the whole point, that if Yeshua was not all that the Father is then how could he be our Mediator? If your image of the Mediator is less than the Father then the Mediator would not be a true representation of the Father, would he?

I see your point, bro. My only point was that you were putting Jesus on par with God – exactly. But Jesus is the mediator for both God AND man. God is not a man, so therefore he cannot be the very exact nature of Jesus. They are not identical was my point to counter your idea that they are.

Quote

We have been made to drink of that One Spirit, the Spirit of Yeshua, the Spirit of God!

Agreed! And how wonderful it is!

But the same spirit that binds Jesus to his Father is the same spirit that binds us all. Jesus said so himself that he wished we all could be one just as the he and the Father were one.

Good to chat with you,
Mandy

[seek and you will find]

Mandy When was the last time you attend any Church? I have Family in the Baptist Church and wondering how wild it is getting? When you see the thing with Obama and people sheering with that Priest just made me sick. How bad is it getting? The last time we visited the Baptist Church Georg almost left, the Soloist was jumping up and down right in front of us. That has been several years ago.
Peace and Love Irene

[Not3in1]

Quote (seek and you will find @ June 01 2008,05:29)

Mandy When was the last time you attend any Church? I have Family in the Baptist Church and wondering how wild it is getting? When you see the thing with Obama and people sheering with that Priest just made me sick. How bad is it getting? The last time we visited the Baptist Church Georg almost left, the Soloist was jumping up and down right in front of us. That has been several years ago. Peace and Love Irene

When I visit my sis in AK I go with their family.

They have “dancers” and “flager's” at their church.  You'd probably have a heart attack there.    Hey, I've been known to dance before the LORD a time or two.  David danced.  I think it brings joy to our Father to see his children worshiping.  I know it brings me joy to see my daughter dancing and twirling around.

It's all good.  I'm beginning to think my mother was so wise when she told me to spit out the seeds and keep the fruit…..

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 01 2008,05:17)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 01 2008,04:08) Just Go to any of their Churches and the (ONLY) name you hear mentioned is Jesus, but hardly ever hears the Fathers name mentioned. They have completely replaced the Father with Jesus, some thing Jesus never Did , Jesus always made the Father the object of His full attention. Bro Gene, What you have mentioned is exactly the reason I decided to leave the church. The Pastor (or whomever) would start out praying to the “Father” but then would switch unexpectedly during the prayer to “Jesus”.  Ultimately, they would be praying to Jesus and then end the prayer like this, “We ask this all in Jesus name, Amen.”  Well, hmmm?  Isn't that confusing! When I came out of the trinitarian doctrine…….I didn't truly know my heavenly Father.  All that was taught was Jesus. John 17:3 And this enternal life to know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom he has sent. All most Christians know is Jesus……

Mandy

Our fellowship is with the Father and the Son.

That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 1 Jn 1:3

If you study the greek for “fellowship” you will see that it is an intimate word.

You quote…
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. Jn 17:3

Notice, the prerequisite to having eternal life is knowing both the Father and the Son.

You can not put to much honour on Yeshua because to the degree that we honour him we honour the Father. We can only know the Father by knowing the Son.

The scriptures were written about him. Just do a search on the words Father, Lord, Jesus, and Christ in the NT and see how many times Yeshua is spoken of compared to the Father.

This does not displease the Father for it pleased the Father that all fulness dwell in him. All things were made by and for Yeshua and he upholds all things and by him all things consist.

The Father says “hear ye him”! Jesus was worshipped in the NT by his followers and even the Angels worship him.

[942767]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 31 2008,15:55)

Hi 94, Day is only an aspect of worldly creation. The day of Jesus was his entering of that worldly creation. Abraham, alive in the place of the repose of the righteous, witnessed it.

Hi Nick:

My understanding is that Abraham saw Jesus' day by faith. When Abraham was tested by God to offer Isaac, the angel of the Lord stopped him from going through with it, and God provided a ram for the sacrifice. This is symoblic of God's sending Jesus to be the proptiation for our sins.

[942767]

Hi Brother WJ:

You say:

Quote

Really? How many occasions are you talking about where Jesus makes it clear that his commandments were not his? The commandments he gave were coming from God because he was and is God!

No brother, Jesus is a man, not just any man, but nevertheless a man.  Hebrews 1ff states that God has spoken to us through His Son.

Quote

1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Relative to the discussion below:

Quote

Failure to understand this is why IMHO that you teach the “tinity” doctrine to avoid teaching polytheism.   I am surprised that you would make this judgment toward me 94. Why would I be avoiding teaching Polytheism when I have plainly taught that Polytheism and Henotheism is not scriptural? Yeshua came to me 34 years ago and changed my life, delivering me from the world flesh and the devil. When I received him into my life that day, my spirit was made free and I without “Trinitarian” teaching, began to praise him and extol him and thank him and worship him as his glory filled my life. I knew he was my Lord and My God. Then Yeshua began teaching me of my Father and the Holy Spirit and many other things.

What I am saying is that you teach each member of the Trinity is God because you believe that this is the only way that the scriptures can be reconciled so that we are worshipping only “One God”.  The Father is God, Jesus is God the Son and the Holy Spirit is God.  I am not the judge, but I believe that the “trinity doctrine” is a misunderstanding of scripture.  I know that you are a sincere Christian and that you love the Lord just as I do.

The Word of God has come from God our Father to us through the Lord Jesus, and we the church beginning with the head our Lord Jesus are subjected to God through that Word.  The body is the Holy Temple of God.  God our Father and the Father of our Lord Jesus dwells within as our helper by His Holy Spirit, and the Word of God as we learn to apply it to our lives is how Jesus dwells within us.

You say:

Quote

Yes there is only “One God”, now you just have to reconcile the scriptures that say Yeshua is God.

Sorry, brother Jesus is my Lord and he is worthy of all of our honor and praise, but he is not God in the sense that you are saying.  I am certainly not trying to dethrone Jesus from your life nor from his rightful place at the right hand of God our Father.

I love you and want the very best that God has to offer for you and your family.

God Bless

[NickHassan]

Quote (942767 @ June 01 2008,05:56)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 31 2008,15:55) Hi 94, Day is only an aspect of worldly creation. The day of Jesus was his entering of that worldly creation. Abraham, alive in the place of the repose of the righteous, witnessed it. Hi Nick: My understanding is that Abraham saw Jesus' day by faith.  When Abraham was tested by God to offer Isaac, the angel of the Lord stopped him from going through with it, and God provided a ram for the sacrifice.  This is symoblic of God's sending Jesus to be the proptiation for our sins.

Hi94,
Did he rejoice by faith too?

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
So the fulness of God dwelled in Jesus?
I agree.
But why do you worship the vessel rather than the contents?

[NickHassan]

Quote (942767 @ June 01 2008,05:56)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 31 2008,15:55) Hi 94, Day is only an aspect of worldly creation. The day of Jesus was his entering of that worldly creation. Abraham, alive in the place of the repose of the righteous, witnessed it. Hi Nick: My understanding is that Abraham saw Jesus' day by faith.  When Abraham was tested by God to offer Isaac, the angel of the Lord stopped him from going through with it, and God provided a ram for the sacrifice.  This is symoblic of God's sending Jesus to be the proptiation for our sins.

Hi 94,
So Abraham is not included among those spoken of by Peter in his first letter Ch1?

“7That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

8Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. “

[942767]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 01 2008,08:06)

Quote (942767 @ June 01 2008,05:56) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 31 2008,15:55) Hi 94, Day is only an aspect of worldly creation. The day of Jesus was his entering of that worldly creation. Abraham, alive in the place of the repose of the righteous, witnessed it. Hi Nick: My understanding is that Abraham saw Jesus' day by faith.  When Abraham was tested by God to offer Isaac, the angel of the Lord stopped him from going through with it, and God provided a ram for the sacrifice.  This is symoblic of God's sending Jesus to be the proptiation for our sins. Hi 94, So Abraham is not included among those spoken of by Peter in his first letter Ch1? “7That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: 8Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. 10Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 12Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. “

Hi Nick:

Are you inquiring about a specific verse in these scriptures?

Quote

Hbr 11:8 ¶ By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. Hbr 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as [in] a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: Hbr 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker [is] God. Hbr 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. Hbr 11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, [so many] as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. Hbr 11:13 ¶ These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of [them], and embraced [them], and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth

[942767]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 01 2008,07:57)

Quote (942767 @ June 01 2008,05:56) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 31 2008,15:55) Hi 94, Day is only an aspect of worldly creation. The day of Jesus was his entering of that worldly creation. Abraham, alive in the place of the repose of the righteous, witnessed it. Hi Nick: My understanding is that Abraham saw Jesus' day by faith.  When Abraham was tested by God to offer Isaac, the angel of the Lord stopped him from going through with it, and God provided a ram for the sacrifice.  This is symoblic of God's sending Jesus to be the proptiation for our sins. Hi94, Did he rejoice by faith too?

Was Abraham around when Jesus was on this earth?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 01 2008,08:04)

Hi WJ, So the fulness of God dwelled in Jesus? I agree. But why do you worship the vessel rather than the contents?

NH

Do you live in a vessel? Are you only flesh?

How do you know I do not worship the contents of the vessel?

[gsilva72]

Doesn't Yeshua mean Yahweh is salvation? If it does, doesn't that make Jesus God? (Besides the fact that all the fulness of the Godhead dwells in Jesus bodily.)

[942767]

Quote (gsilva72 @ June 01 2008,09:57)

Doesn't Yeshua mean Yahweh is salvation? If it does, doesn't that make Jesus God? (Besides the fact that all the fulness of the Godhead dwells in Jesus bodily.)

Hi gsilva72:

The name Jesus does indeed mean “YHWH is salvation”.

Quote

2Cr 5:18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 2Cr 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 01 2008,05:44)

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 01 2008,05:17) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 01 2008,04:08) Just Go to any of their Churches and the (ONLY) name you hear mentioned is Jesus, but hardly ever hears the Fathers name mentioned. They have completely replaced the Father with Jesus, some thing Jesus never Did , Jesus always made the Father the object of His full attention. Bro Gene, What you have mentioned is exactly the reason I decided to leave the church. The Pastor (or whomever) would start out praying to the “Father” but then would switch unexpectedly during the prayer to “Jesus”.  Ultimately, they would be praying to Jesus and then end the prayer like this, “We ask this all in Jesus name, Amen.”  Well, hmmm?  Isn't that confusing! When I came out of the trinitarian doctrine…….I didn't truly know my heavenly Father.  All that was taught was Jesus. John 17:3 And this enternal life to know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom he has sent. All most Christians know is Jesus…… Mandy Our fellowship is with the Father and the Son. That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 1 Jn 1:3 If you study the greek for “fellowship” you will see that it is an intimate word. You quote… And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. Jn 17:3 Notice, the prerequisite to having eternal life is knowing both the Father and the Son. You can not put to much honour on Yeshua because to the degree that we honour him we honour the Father. We can only know the Father by knowing the Son. The scriptures were written about him. Just do a search on the words Father, Lord, Jesus, and Christ in the NT and see how many times Yeshua is spoken of compared to the Father. This does not displease the Father for it pleased the Father that all fulness dwell in him. All things were made by and for Yeshua and he upholds all things and by him all things consist. The Father says “hear ye him”! Jesus was worshipped in the NT by his followers and even the Angels worship him.

Hi,

I don't necessarily disagree with anything you've written here. Other than everything was made through Jesus, not by him. There are clear scriptures that tell us God created everything ALONE.

Mandy

[gsilva72]

Mandy,

The scripture does say all things were made by him. John 1:3

[NickHassan]

Quote (942767 @ June 01 2008,08:33)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 01 2008,08:06) Quote (942767 @ June 01 2008,05:56) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 31 2008,15:55) Hi 94, Day is only an aspect of worldly creation. The day of Jesus was his entering of that worldly creation. Abraham, alive in the place of the repose of the righteous, witnessed it. Hi Nick: My understanding is that Abraham saw Jesus' day by faith.  When Abraham was tested by God to offer Isaac, the angel of the Lord stopped him from going through with it, and God provided a ram for the sacrifice.  This is symoblic of God's sending Jesus to be the proptiation for our sins. Hi 94, So Abraham is not included among those spoken of by Peter in his first letter Ch1? “7That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: 8Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. 10Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 12Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. “ Hi Nick: Are you inquiring about a specific verse in these scriptures? Quote Hbr 11:8 ¶ By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. Hbr 11:9  By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as [in] a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: Hbr 11:10  For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker [is] God. Hbr 11:11  Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. Hbr 11:12  Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, [so many] as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. Hbr 11:13 ¶ These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of [them], and embraced [them], and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth

Hi 94,
So Abraham had no knowledge but rather expectant faith?

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 01 2008,08:39)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 01 2008,08:04) Hi WJ, So the fulness of God dwelled in Jesus? I agree. But why do you worship the vessel rather than the contents? NH Do you live in a vessel? Are you only flesh? How do you know I do not worship the contents of the vessel?

Hi WORSHIPPING JESUS,

Your name spells it out.
The vessel is your God
but not his and our God.

[gollamudi]

Quote (gsilva72 @ June 01 2008,16:00)

Mandy, The scripture does say all things were made by him. John 1:3

Hi gsilva,
Jn 1:3 talks about the word of God not Jesus directly. Please see Ps 33:6. It was God's word by which the heavens and earth were made but not by Jesus as you are assuming.
Take care
Adam

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