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How is Jesus not God? Jesus is not a demi god, but he is God. Hebrews 1:8, Matthew 1:23, John 1:1, 1 Timothy 3:16 all declare that Jesus is God. Also notice that the G in God with these scriptures is not a little g.
Was Jesus called Immanuel? Nope.
Could it be that “God with us” means something *other than* God is physically present in his own Son? I think it could. Explore what it could mean…..
That being said, I do believe that my father is with me (his blood runs through my veins, for instance). You see there are different ways to interpret this.
Matthew 1:23 reads “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.” NKJV I didn't interpret this, it is implied in the context. It talks about a virgin bearing a son.
1 Peter 1:20 “knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation” NKJV By the way what church do you attend? I was also baptised in the name of Jesus only.
Quote (gsilva72 @ May 07 2008,11:45) How is Jesus not God? Jesus is not a demi god, but he is God. Hebrews 1:8, Matthew 1:23, John 1:1, 1 Timothy 3:16 all declare that Jesus is God. Also notice that the G in God with these scriptures is not a little g.
In Hindu philosophy, an avatar most commonly refers to the incarnation (bodily manifestation) of a divine being, or the Supreme Being (God) onto planet Earth. The Sanskrit word avatāra- literally means “descent” (avatarati) and usually implies a deliberate descent into lower realms of existence for special purposes. This very similar to the common concept of Jesus, you add to it by saying Jesus is not merely a devine being, no demigod, but God himself.Problems with this concept:
If God is the limitless, great unmanifest, all powerful creator of the universe, how does he limit himself and still be God?Mark 15:34 “And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? “
How can God forsake himself?
Mark 6:4 “But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.'
A prophet to himself?
Mark 10:18 “And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.”
Why does he say this if he is God himself?
Mark 13:32 “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.”
This states that the Son does not have knowledge that the father has. This shows lack of omniscience, and so proves inferiority to the Father. Inferiority shows inequality.
Mark 14:36 “And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.”
Jesus subordinates his will and desire.
Luke 3:38 “Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.”
Adam is given the title son of God yet none relate him as divine.
Quote (Cato @ May 08 2008,02:51) Adam is given the title son of God yet none relate him as divine.
Excellent point!This may also help the preexistent and conception threads. Something to ponder….
Quote (gsilva72 @ May 07 2008,19:34) Matthew 1:23 reads “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.” NKJV I didn't interpret this, it is implied in the context. It talks about a virgin bearing a son.
1 Peter 1:20 “knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation” NKJV By the way what church do you attend? I was also baptised in the name of Jesus only.
Hi again,I grew up in the Assembly of God church. I was in ministry full time there and loved it! Some of the best memories of my young adult life, maybe.
When I was married in 92, my husband and I couldn't agree on a church (he was raised Roman catholic). We also moved away from the area where I grew up. I never did find another church, even though I must have visited nearly 50. So, I began to seek out home groups and study on my own.
I later hooked up with a Abrahamic Faith group and then a Christadelphian group. I really like those guys!
But as far as “God with us”, like I said, I believe that Jesus was God's Son and representative, so in that way God was with us through Jesus. The name Immanuel was never given to Jesus. It was never recorded anywhere that that was his name! Further, just because a name implies something doesn't mean you should translate it literally. For instance, Joshua means the Lord's strength or something….that doesn't mean that Joshua was literally all the strength of God? Does this make sense?
OK, I will be gone for a few days. I was just checking in this morning to see if Jodi got back to me on another thread. Take care brother's and sister's.
Love,
MandyHi Cato
Quote (Cato @ May 08 2008,02:51)
If God is the limitless, great unmanifest, all powerful creator of the universe, how does he limit himself and still be God?If God is God, and he is all powerfull, limitless, creator of the universe, how could he not be able to take on human form if he would like?
Is there anything to hard for him?
Only men would put such limits on him!
If this limitless God can live in the puny hearts of men by his Spirit, why couldnt he take on a body of his own?
In fact the Word that was with God and is God did!
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. (1 Tim 3:16)
Blessings!
Quote (Colter @ May 08 2008,04:21) Some of the other problems that people have with Jesus' seemingly conflicting statements is due to the fact that Jesus was a “duel nature being”, a divine son having a human experience. At times he spoke as a man subject to the will of God and at other times as A son of God subject to the will of God, and finally by divine rite post resurrection. Colter
Colter,What you describe sounds like what the greeks would have called a demigod a “half-god”, whose one parent was a god and whose other parent was human like Heracles.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 08 2008,03:54) Hi Cato Quote (Cato @ May 08 2008,02:51)
If God is the limitless, great unmanifest, all powerful creator of the universe, how does he limit himself and still be God?If God is God, and he is all powerfull, limitless, creator of the universe, how could he not be able to take on human form if he would like?
Is there anything to hard for him?
Only men would put such limits on him!
If this limitless God can live in the puny hearts of men by his Spirit, why couldnt he take on a body of his own?
In fact the Word that was with God and is God did!
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. (1 Tim 3:16)
Blessings!
WJ,We once more come to Paradox, God is capable of anything, yet to limit the limitless is a contradiction, and once something is limited it is no longer all powerful and thus not God.
What you ascribe to Jesus is essentially being an avatar of God, like Krishna supposedly was for Vishnu. An avatar is a representation or aspect of the divine and so would account for being limited for it is not the god himself in total, but a portion or representation of such.
If you think he was fully and equally God, then the other Bible passages I quoted in a previous post:
Mark 10:18, Mark 15:34, Mark 6:4, Mark 13:32, Mark 14:36 make no sense.Yes, 1 Timothy 3:16 also mentions that God was manifested in the flesh. If Jesus is not God, then who is being referred to in this scripture. Also, Hebrews 1:8 also declares that Jesus is God. “But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.” NKJV Verse 9 goes on to say ” You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.” NKJV. If Jesus is not God, then we are breaking the First commandment “You shall have no other gods before Me.” Exodus 20:3 NKJV Also, if Jesus wasn't God, how could he forgive sins? Only God can forgive sins. Matthew 9:1-7 NKJV reads:
So He got into a boat, crossed over, and came to His own city. 2 Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you.”
3 And at once some of the scribes said within themselves, “This Man blasphemes!”
4 But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts? 5 For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise and walk’? 6 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—then He said to the paralytic, “Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.” 7 And he arose and departed to his house.
Quote (Cato @ May 08 2008,05:40) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 08 2008,03:54) Hi Cato Quote (Cato @ May 08 2008,02:51)
If God is the limitless, great unmanifest, all powerful creator of the universe, how does he limit himself and still be God?If God is God, and he is all powerfull, limitless, creator of the universe, how could he not be able to take on human form if he would like?
Is there anything to hard for him?
Only men would put such limits on him!
If this limitless God can live in the puny hearts of men by his Spirit, why couldnt he take on a body of his own?
In fact the Word that was with God and is God did!
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. (1 Tim 3:16)
Blessings!
WJ,We once more come to Paradox, God is capable of anything, yet to limit the limitless is a contradiction, and once something is limited it is no longer all powerful and thus not God.
What you ascribe to Jesus is essentially being an avatar of God, like Krishna supposedly was for Vishnu. An avatar is a representation or aspect of the divine and so would account for being limited for it is not the god himself in total, but a portion or representation of such.
If you think he was fully and equally God, then the other Bible passages I quoted in a previous post:
Mark 10:18, Mark 15:34, Mark 6:4, Mark 13:32, Mark 14:36 make no sense.
CatoSo do you think Jesus was just flesh?
Is man just flesh? Or is man also Spirit and in the image of God?
If so then tell me why God could not take on the likeness of sinful flesh without diminishing his nature as Spirit or God?
Jesus was not just flesh, he was God. He was both God and man. John 1:1 says ” In the begining was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God.”
Yes, we were created in the image of God. Genesis 1:26. But Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.” Colossians 1:15
Jesus had no sin because his Father was in heaven, unlike us, who had earthly Fathers. Repost due to error in grammer
How is Jesus not God?
It's quite simple, he is God's son.
John 12:44
Then Jesus cried out, “When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me.John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.”John 20:31
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.Nowhere are we commanded to believe that Jesus is God. That doctrine came later. As it it written:
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
Quote (t8 @ May 08 2008,14:36) How is Jesus not God? It's quite simple, he is God's son.
t8
Good to see you.
Yes it is quite simple. t8 is “human” and his Father is “human”.
t8 is not his Father, and his Father is not t8.
God is Spirit, Jesus is Spirit, and there is only “One Spirit”.
The Word was with God and was God; Jesus is the “Only” Begotten, (monogenes, Unique) Son of God, the Word/God that came in the flesh.
John 12:44
Then Jesus cried out, “When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me.Or it can read…
Then Jesus cried out, “When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in (God)…
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.Notice the “name of God's one and only Son“. No other Only Begotten sons (or gods) like him.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.”We have Eternal life by believing in Him, because he is the “Eternal life” that was with the Father. (1 John 1:1-3)
John further clarifies who this “Eternal life” was…
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
John 20:31
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.Just 3 verses before this John clarifies who this Son of God was, in confirmation of John 1:1 and 1 John 5:20, by not rebuking Thomas and stating that it was a sign.
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: (John 20:28-30)Quote (t8 @ May 08 2008,14:36)
Nowhere are we commanded to believe that Jesus is God. That doctrine came later. As it it written:Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
Then Jesus cried out, “When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me.
If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him (God), and have seen him (God).
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ (the Word/God) is come in the flesh is of God: (John 1:1, 14)
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ (the Word/God) is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. (1 John 4:1-3)Nowhere in the scriptures does it command us not to believe in The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit as God!!!
Good too see you t8.
Blessings!
Nowhere in the scriptures does it command us not to believe in Allah or Darwin.
That is not how you establish a truth, especially the foundation of the way.
Good to see you to WJ.
As a believer we are to believe that he came from God and is his son. Hence the son of God. This is a foundational truth. But it seems that the foundation is under attack. The good news is not even the gates of hell will prevail.
Matthew 16:16
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
If you wonder what is the foundational truth of Christ's body, then look at what Peter said. But many today seem to think that he said “You are God and God is a Trinity, and the son is one member of that Trinity”. Sorry if it hurts your feelings, but this is a lie. Jesus simply didn't build his Church on that doctrine, in fact no one in scripture even teaches it. This teaching/doctrine came later around the time Paul warned that many would be deceived by people from among them.
Paul was an apostle and he rightly said in Acts 20:29-30
29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.”Yeshua is the son of God and the messiah. No one an argue against this and not have serious issues with scripture.
Consider these scriptures. We have some major problems if Jesus is not God! Isaiah 45:5 “I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:” KJV
Isaiah 45:14 “Thus saith the LORD, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God.”
Isaiah 45:21 Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me.
Isaiah 45:22 Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.
Now if Jesus is not God then he cannot be our savior, because God just declared he was our savior. You can't say we have 2 saviors! Besides, if Jesus is not God, God doesn't know Jesus because Isaiah 45:5,14,21,and 22 declare there is no other.
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