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Quote (Porterman @ April 05 2012,04:46) Quote (TimothyVI @ April 04 2012,21:11) I have never heard a single person who believes in evolution theorize that in the beginning there was absolutely nothing.
That is a foolish statement that I hear creationists use to ridicule science that they do not understand.Tim
Hi (to all – this is my first post)I saw this kind of discussion in other forums and they have never made any sense.
In my opinion it is obvious that there was never a time when there was nothing.
It is like saying something happened Spontaneously. No, it is just that we didn't know something was happening until it suddenly erupted in an act.
Also, Random. There is nothing that is RANDOM in the truest sense – only that the calculations required to work out the pattern of the thing is so complex that it would take longer to work it out than the result of working it out is worth.
Ok, so package the idea of Spontaneous and Random from the description given above and use them in every day situations – what happens. people come to believe that Spontinuity really exist and Randomness is beyond reality.
In my opinion, Scientist are only uncovering what God has created but they want to claim the discoveries as their own creation.
Here is my clincher that always shuts them up: WHY?
Here is the reasoning: If Life evolved from SURVIVAL ENZYMES what was their basis for this seeing that the ultimate result was always going to be DEATH. That is – the Universe will collapse back onto itself back to the nothing that it started out as.
What is the point – Oh, that is a WHAT question – sorry – WHY bother?
Oh yes, WHY do we care to be good if this is our job lot – to ultimately be destroyed – Why should we care?
Sorry for the heavy duty entrance but I have been in other forums so this is not a new question to me.
I suppose they would say: “why does there have to be a 'why'”?They would say, “'why' does God exist”?
I only take part to add my own weight for fun – I really have to wonder (i don't really!) what Athiest and Skeptics and Scientists (the mass majority who do not believe in God) hope to achieve with their ideas.
There can only be one out come for them – annihilation of all LIFE but especially that of the intelligent human race – and ultimately the universe – and for what – nothing.
They would say they are seeking truth, even if it is an unpleasant truth, with a bad outcome.
“2) The universe contains life/conscience. You say the universe was not caused by a conscience but produced it. I say the effect comes from the cause. God is conscious and produced conscience. You are basically saying that the cause doesn't possess the quality of the effect.”–t8
The question of what exactly is consciousness is an interesting one. Today, we have animals with a vast array of consciousness, some barely aware, and others vary aware. I tend to think of consciousness as awareness.
Anyway, I don't think he was saying that the “cause doesn't possess the quality of the effect.” He was probably saying that there was no cause.
To which point you would say: “every effect has a cause.”
To which he would say: “well what caused god then”?
And then the conversation ends.
On the other idea: that of the cause not containing the characteristic of the effect: what of god and satan? Satan has some horrible characteristics that we wouldn't attribute to god.
Quote (Stu @ June 05 2012,22:34) Quote (t8 @ June 05 2012,20:28) Quote (Stu @ April 06 2012,21:32) Quote (t8 @ April 06 2012,18:29) Beginnings have a cause.
Says who? You?Define cause for us, then explain how a cause of time could be possible.
Stuart
OK, if a beginning didn't have a cause then it didn't begin it was always there.So that is the eternal something option. Is this where you are planting your stake now?
You didn't answer my request, to define “cause”.You seem to be associating the words “begin” and “cause”. Why?
Stuart
Hi Stuart,Cause: A person or thing that gives rise to an action, phenomenon, or condition. (Link)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Stu @ June 05 2012,22:41) Quote (t8 @ June 05 2012,20:26) Quote (Stu @ April 06 2012,21:20) In other words, t8's platitudinous uses of “nothing” and “god” don't even scratch the surface of the question of why there is a universe.
Ha ha. I offered to debate you on this and you declined. I have asked you to answer which of the three options it is or to offer a fourth option and still you decline.You are in decline Stu, so please stop pretending that you know what you are talking about. It has already been established that you are clueless regarding this. Anything you say still fits in the Someone, Something, or Nothing categories.
I rejected your “debate” because it was couched in terms of a logical fallacy, the one you repeat now. Why are you limiting to these three options, the canard of the lying cretin creationist? Are you that limited yourself?Stuart
Hi Stuart,T8 has repeatedly asked you for a fourth option,
will you claim one without even knowing what it is?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi Stuart,
Shall we call it 'the anything but God clause'?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (david @ Oct. 20 2012,17:44) To which point you would say: “every effect has a cause.” To which he would say: “well what caused god then”?
And then the conversation ends.
Hi David,
When the argument is used that everything must be caused by something, the question “what caused God” is a valid, earnest question. But that question is always dismissed with something like ” God has alway been.I would like to hear a lucid answer to the question, If complex things can only arise from things more complex still, can you offer any explanation for the actual origin of complexity.
Tim
Quote (david @ Oct. 20 2012,17:30) I only take part to add my own weight for fun – I really have to wonder (i don't really!) what Athiest and Skeptics and Scientists (the mass majority who do not believe in God) hope to achieve with their ideas. There can only be one out come for them – annihilation of all LIFE but especially that of the intelligent human race – and ultimately the universe – and for what – nothing.
They would say they are seeking truth, even if it is an unpleasant truth, with a bad outcome.
Some creation, don't you think.Stuart
Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 20 2012,18:16) Quote (Stu @ June 05 2012,22:34) Quote (t8 @ June 05 2012,20:28) Quote (Stu @ April 06 2012,21:32) Quote (t8 @ April 06 2012,18:29) Beginnings have a cause.
Says who? You?Define cause for us, then explain how a cause of time could be possible.
Stuart
OK, if a beginning didn't have a cause then it didn't begin it was always there.So that is the eternal something option. Is this where you are planting your stake now?
You didn't answer my request, to define “cause”.You seem to be associating the words “begin” and “cause”. Why?
Stuart
Hi Stuart,Cause: A person or thing that gives rise to an action, phenomenon, or condition. (Link)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Nope, didn't see it that time either. What is your claimed relationship between 'cause' and 'begin' when it comes to this specific discussion?Stuart
Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 20 2012,18:19) Quote (Stu @ June 05 2012,22:41) Quote (t8 @ June 05 2012,20:26) Quote (Stu @ April 06 2012,21:20) In other words, t8's platitudinous uses of “nothing” and “god” don't even scratch the surface of the question of why there is a universe.
Ha ha. I offered to debate you on this and you declined. I have asked you to answer which of the three options it is or to offer a fourth option and still you decline.You are in decline Stu, so please stop pretending that you know what you are talking about. It has already been established that you are clueless regarding this. Anything you say still fits in the Someone, Something, or Nothing categories.
I rejected your “debate” because it was couched in terms of a logical fallacy, the one you repeat now. Why are you limiting to these three options, the canard of the lying cretin creationist? Are you that limited yourself?Stuart
Hi Stuart,T8 has repeatedly asked you for a fourth option,
will you claim one without even knowing what it is?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
A fourth option for what?Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Oct. 20 2012,23:19) Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 20 2012,18:16)
Hi Stuart,Cause: A person or thing that gives rise to an action, phenomenon, or condition. (Link)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Nope, didn't see it that time either. What is your claimed relationship between 'cause' and 'begin' when it comes to this specific discussion?Stuart
Hi Stuart,It's a simple Scientific fact of cause and effect.
The effect is the Universe, and the cause is God; simple. But
you cannot say what is the cause of God because he is not an effect.effect: cause (something) to happen; bring about. (you can't God was brought about)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Stu @ Oct. 20 2012,23:20) Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 20 2012,18:19) Quote (Stu @ June 05 2012,22:41) Quote (t8 @ June 05 2012,20:26) Quote (Stu @ April 06 2012,21:20) In other words, t8's platitudinous uses of “nothing” and “god” don't even scratch the surface of the question of why there is a universe.
Ha ha. I offered to debate you on this and you declined. I have asked you to answer which of the three options it is or to offer a fourth option and still you decline.You are in decline Stu, so please stop pretending that you know what you are talking about. It has already been established that you are clueless regarding this. Anything you say still fits in the Someone, Something, or Nothing categories.
I rejected your “debate” because it was couched in terms of a logical fallacy, the one you repeat now. Why are you limiting to these three options, the canard of the lying cretin creationist? Are you that limited yourself?Stuart
Hi Stuart,T8 has repeatedly asked you for a fourth option,
will you claim one without even knowing what it is?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
A fourth option for what?Stuart
1. Someone,
2. Something, or
3. Nothing categoriesQuote It's a simple Scientific fact of cause and effect.
The effect is the Universe, and the cause is God; simple. But
you cannot say what is the cause of God because he is not an effect.–Ed
Is it that simple? Wouldn't someone just respond: “we'll then, the universe isn't an effect either.”
(We don't really understand the universe…what was before the big boom, does that question even make sense to ask? Is the universe just a series of contraction and expansion, with bangs and crunches happening every 50 billion years?)
If you say: “god is not an effect” then why wouldn't someone respond: “then neither is the universe”?
Quote (david @ Oct. 20 2012,21:20) Quote It's a simple Scientific fact of cause and effect.
The effect is the Universe, and the cause is God; simple. But
you cannot say what is the cause of God because he is not an effect.–Ed
Is it that simple? Wouldn't someone just respond: “we'll then, the universe isn't an effect either.”
(We don't really understand the universe…what was before the big boom, does that question even make sense to ask? Is the universe just a series of contraction and expansion, with bangs and crunches happening every 50 billion years?)
If you say: “god is not an effect” then why wouldn't someone respond: “then neither is the universe”?
WHAT would you say if the entire creation come out of a little particul of energy not bigger than a grain of sand ,but energy we do not know but coming from God almighty,and that the so called big bang is only the release of that energy,into a leaser energy,and so progressing always to a leaser energy
Quote (TimothyVI @ Oct. 20 2012,23:21) I would say that it was totally unbiblical according to Genesis. Tim
timshow me
Quote (david @ Oct. 20 2012,20:26) I suppose they would say: “why does there have to be a 'why'”? They would say, “'why' does God exist”?
Everything has an explanation. Why is discovery process for the explanation. And why does God exist, because the evidence leads us to that conclusion.The fact that we are alive, intelligent, and have a source, leads us to the source having the attributes that the creation possesses.
Quote (david @ Oct. 21 2012,05:20) Is it that simple? Wouldn't someone just respond: “we'll then, the universe isn't an effect either.”
Impossible for non logic to produce infinite logic.
Impossible for 0 to produce any other number. Will always be zero.
Start with infinity, and you get an infinite number of finites. Exactly what we see.
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