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Quote (Porterman @ April 05 2012,07:52) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 05 2012,04:48) Here's my question. Where did God come from? As I see it – at least as far as T8 has informed us ad nauseum – there are only three possibilities:
1. Someone
2. Something
3. NothingSince nothing can't produce anything, we can rule that out, and since a dead non-intelligent thing can't produce an intelligent living being, that only leaves someone. We can argue about who that someone is, but by logic, we can firmly establish that someone created God.
This is really simple. A child can understand this.
Hi WIT,So who created the person who created God?
Porterman, This question is usually asked by those who cannot grasp infinity.I usually reply with something like this:
“Infinity or eternity exists and is not just a concept. If it didn't, then everything must have proceeded from nothing at the earliest point, and if nothing was the earliest state or thing, then there would be nothing now. Thus, infinity/eternity is proven by the very fact that there is something.”
Quote (t8 @ April 05 2012,08:53) Quote (Porterman @ April 05 2012,07:52) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 05 2012,04:48) Here's my question. Where did God come from? As I see it – at least as far as T8 has informed us ad nauseum – there are only three possibilities:
1. Someone
2. Something
3. NothingSince nothing can't produce anything, we can rule that out, and since a dead non-intelligent thing can't produce an intelligent living being, that only leaves someone. We can argue about who that someone is, but by logic, we can firmly establish that someone created God.
This is really simple. A child can understand this.
Hi WIT,So who created the person who created God?
Porterman.This question is usually asked by those who cannot grasp infinity.
“Infinity or eternity exists and is not just a concept. If it didn't, then everything must have proceeded from nothing at the earliest point, and if nothing was the earliest state or thing, then there would be nothing now. Thus, infinity/eternity is proven by the very fact that there is something.”
t8,I'm not quite following. Are you saying MY Question or WhatIsTruth's?
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 05 2012,04:48) Here's my question. Where did God come from? As I see it – at least as far as T8 has informed us ad nauseum – there are only three possibilities:
1. Someone
2. Something
3. NothingSince nothing can't produce anything, we can rule that out, and since a dead non-intelligent thing can't produce an intelligent living being, that only leaves someone. We can argue about who that someone is, but by logic, we can firmly establish that someone created God.
This is really simple. A child can understand this.
Hi WIT.You said…“We can argue about who that someone is, but by logic, we can firmly establish that someone created God“.
I say – Then who created 'that someone who created God'.
Maybe…our brains do not have the capacity to understand it because the God is MORE than us…logical.
Quote (dew @ April 05 2012,09:08) I say – Then who created 'that someone who created God'.
Hi Dew,That was my question (too).
Quote (Porterman @ April 05 2012,09:16) Quote (dew @ April 05 2012,09:08) I say – Then who created 'that someone who created God'.
Hi Dew,That was my question (too).
Hi Porter,
Yes, I did see that after I wrote it
Who created God? Man did, most likely due to the meme gene with all regards to the human ego. Quite elementary. And when one god wasn't enough to surpass the masses, just create another one and then another, then combine them to form a whole new one. Then Gods have children that are half human and half Gods. The list goes on and on however the blood remains.
Mankind has used God for their own purposes for centuries and nothing seems to be changing anytime soon. God anymore is just a scapegoat for people, due to whatever reason they want it for, so since the answer is Because God is to accepted then one must expect to justify the answer with an intelligent response to one who ask what God?
Very shallow princess. You have taken the bait from the prince of this world, hook line and sinker.
Besides personal proof of God (faith is experiential) what we see demands that there is a God.
Any clear thinking person knows this.The Man creating God theory is very lame and doesn't dig very deep at all. It assumes that everything came from nothing or from something eternal yet not intelligent or aware, even though it produced these qualities in the universe.
Man knows God exists because that knowledge is within each one of us.
Searing the conscience is what destroys this however.Anyone who denies God is a fool according to scripture.
And I definitely see that it is a foolish thing to do.Quote (Porterman @ April 05 2012,11:58) t8, I'm not quite following. Are you saying MY Question or WhatIsTruth's?
Sorry Porterman.I changed my post to reflect what I was really trying to say.
Not pointed at you now.
Quote (terraricca @ April 05 2012,04:30) Quote (princess @ April 04 2012,18:36) How does this theory differ from the one in the bible T8? Something I have come to understand that theist and atheist are not very far apart in what they believe, they just use different subjects and nouns. Even the story of creation is evolution, time and steps were taken to form what is. Something came from nothing. So adding either a god or a explosion to the story is really of no consequence. Making the argument null and void.
princessQuote Even the story of creation is evolution, time and steps were taken to form what is. Something came from nothing. So adding either a god or a explosion to the story is really of no consequence. Making the argument null and void. but their is a difference,and specially in personal interest,glory,
on one end you have the explosion,no one did it ,no men is guilty of anything ,we just have to survive with the outcome of the explosion, do the best we can for our self, that's the way it is ,now that we are closer to burn the planet,most of us men have to be sacrificed to dead for the glory of the elites in power ,but it seems that even the poor will defend that theory with their lives ,
so now the creation does make more sens and create order everywhere but not in the “explosion group ” why is that ??
no glory ,no personal gain,of cause their is corruption like religions ,but we do not talk about those wen we talk about the scriptures ,we have to let God stand on his own ground so to speak,so what is wrong with scriptures Princess
?because I can not see it ,I only see good in it ,
Hey T, hope your feeling well.There are passages from the bible that I do so enjoy T, but there are passages from Taoism I enjoy, Hinduism also, I still know that truths can be found anywhere.
Christianity teaches that you are to listen to your spirit man, then tells you to test this spirit with a book to ensure it lines up, what about they were wrong, maybe the book is to line up with the spirit man, and if there is disagreement then go with what the spirit speaks.
About the matter of what makes more sense regarding creation, we all have a choice to decide where we came from, either from a god of some sort or from the stars or from the sea, what matters is that it is the same as having different color skin, are you seeing just the cover or are you seeing the person inside. The common factor is we are all humans. The main factor is how we react and treat one another, how we come together for the common good.
Do take care of yourself T.
t8,
No worries. I just thought t was weird.
Good Forum. Better than the one i just left.
There they just argue to the point of pointlessness.
In the end I just left cos it wasnt about the gospels but egos.
Quote (Porterman @ April 05 2012,15:21) Quote (terraricca @ April 05 2012,07:20) who told that little thing to do what he as to do
Hi Terraricca,That is yet another question.
In fact I think any argument surrounding this topic is nonsensical.
I only take part to add my own weight for fun – I really have to wonder (i don't really!) what Athiest and Skeptics and Scientists (the mass majority who do not believe in God) hope to achieve with their ideas.
There can only be one out come for them – annihilation of all LIFE but especially that of the intelligent human race – and ultimately the universe – and for what – nothing.
When – several multi-billion years in the future when the Sun explodes (or collapses).
“oh well, just time for another cup of Tea!”
It came – it existed – and it went
porterQuote When – several multi-billion years in the future when the Sun explodes (or collapses). who told you that ,that this will happen
Quote (t8 @ April 05 2012,09:52) Very shallow princess. You have taken the bait from the prince of this world, hook line and sinker. Besides personal proof of God (faith is experiential) what we see demands that there is a God.
Any clear thinking person knows this.The Man creating God theory is very lame and doesn't dig very deep at all. It assumes that everything came from nothing or from something eternal yet not intelligent or aware, even though it produced these qualities in the universe.
Man knows God exists because that knowledge is within each one of us.
Searing the conscience is what destroys this however.Anyone who denies God is a fool according to scripture.
And I definitely see that it is a foolish thing to do.
T8,Perhaps your rose colored glasses need to come off for a short time and take some of your teachings you are throwing out and look at what you believe in the fourth dimension.
Your slight insults and disarray of words are proof that I believe if you were standing beside me you would have pulled my hair, and then the gracious bow out of calling me foolish, tisk tisk T8, would you prefer the response of only a fool would follow such a foolish god.
Assuming is not something I am very fond off, people assume they hear God talking to them or through them only to find out that wasn't that at all. Just their own thoughts magnify to reflect that God was talking to them.
Why is it so important that you must continue the pursuit to establish what made the world? And T8, really man did not create God is lame and not in depth, I could recommend a good book if you would like to study the subject a bit more.
Take off the mask & rose colored glasses T8, it may be a bit much at first, but it does get better when you release to the inner self. It is really not so different then what you are now, it just takes away the confusion that religion brings. True peace has no chaos.
Placing your god in the intelligence category is really not giving the man proper props is it? Isn't there some contradiction in your bible about that statement?
I cannot disagree that we were given something special and searching to return to it is a life long journey one that is wonderfull when you are not restricted and given limits.
Believe as you wish T8, your belief has no impact on me whatsoever, I am established and if you bring forth a truth then I will take notice. Other then that………
Quote (Porterman @ April 05 2012,02:16) I think you misunderstood what I was saying. Morals is something that happens at a higher level of species. What encouraged the SURVIVAL ENZYMES to develop 'Morals' in the first place – What about the 'SELFISH GENE'? Is there a constructive design process already taking shaping – are we creating the process by saying 'What If” and then designing a solution.
Naturally, being above the ENZYME level we can see what will happen in the beginning, and the middle and the end (oh, doesn't that seem like 'A God').
Who takes the good behaviour genes and encourages them and destroys the bad behaviour genes. Who adds in an unknown component that the SELFISH gene would NEVER have added in as it appears in the shortsight that it is working against it?
But listen up: Does the Enzyme know that it is US that is designing its future? No, it think its doing it itself.
I am afraid that your questions don't make much sense. Enzymes don't “think”. Enzymes aren't “alive” in the sense that we would use the word. They are simply part of the building blocks for life.If what you are really trying to ask is how did these enzymes develop in such a way as to advance life, you are asking a very technical question that should properly be addressed to a biologist.
If you are asking how it is, in general, that evolution progressed from tiny, simple organisms to the complexity of life that we have today, try here for starters.
Quote There can only be one out come for them – annihilation of all LIFE but especially that of the intelligent human race – and ultimately the universe – and for what – nothing. When – several multi-billion years in the future when the Sun explodes (or collapses).
“oh well, just time for another cup of Tea!”
It came – it existed – and it went
Consider the story of two men.
One man, a slave, gets up every morning to do his masters bidding. Before he eats his own breakfast, he must fetch his masters breakfast and bow down before his master when he serves it to him. All throughout the day, he must do exactly as his master asks, or he will be punished. If he gets too out of line, the master will chain him up in the basement of the house leaving him to starve to death. As long as he does what he is told and pays unceasing respect to the master his life will go well. This slave man lives this way for thousands of years.
The other man, a free man, gets up every morning and decides what he will do for the day. He is not always successful at things he tries, but some days he truly amazes himself by what he is able to accomplish. He travels to strange lands, learns new things, and even manages to create some masterful works of art. One day, as he is trying to climb a very steep mountain, he stumbles and falls to his death. He only lives to be forty years old.
Which of these two men would you want to be?
You say that being on this earth a few short years is worth “nothing”, and that the only thing that gives life meaning is an eternity with god. (The latter is implied by what you stated.) Yet, the god you think gives meaning to our existence is exactly like the master of the slave. He explicitly says that all of “creation” is meant to serve his glory, and is to worship him. He demands absolute obedience, or he will punish you eternally. (Paul talks explicitly about being a slave to Christ in his letters to other Christians.) You may think that this gives meaning to your life, but it is quite the opposite. You're like the slave in the first story. You may live on and on, according to your beliefs, but what kind of life will it be?
In my opinion, a man who truly lives for forty years has a far better existence than a slave who exists for thousands, but you may believe otherwise.
Quote (t8 @ April 05 2012,03:53) Infinity or eternity exists and is not just a concept. If it didn't, then everything must have proceeded from nothing at the earliest point, and if nothing was the earliest state or thing, then there would be nothing now. Thus, infinity/eternity is proven by the very fact that there is something.
You apply this concept to your god. I apply it to the universe. Why do you think that your position is the only possibility?princess.
Ask yourself how the universe came about. (What preceded the Big Bang).
1) God
2) Something non-living but eternal
3) NothingNow once you have given reasonable consideration on these possibilities, then rule out God when you can answer me which point is the answer besides God, i.e., 2) or 3). And explain.
Otherwise your statements are void of understanding. This is my guess on your statement but please prove me wrong. I will be waiting for your response as to what the option is considering that man created God and thus doesn't exist.
Waiting now…
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 06 2012,05:00) Quote (t8 @ April 05 2012,03:53) Infinity or eternity exists and is not just a concept. If it didn't, then everything must have proceeded from nothing at the earliest point, and if nothing was the earliest state or thing, then there would be nothing now. Thus, infinity/eternity is proven by the very fact that there is something.
You apply this concept to your god. I apply it to the universe. Why do you think that your position is the only possibility?
OK, thanks. Finally an Atheist who is brave enough to stand by one of the 3 choices.OK, so we both know that the nothing option is foolish. Good, many cannot see how foolish that belief is.
You say an eternal universe.
I say an eternal God.You say, what is the difference. Well I don't want to lose 2 hours of my life explaining it, so I will dedicate 10 minutes to the first points that I think of.
1) Why rule out God if you ask “what is the difference”? If both can apply, why rule it out?
2) The universe contains life/conscience. You say the universe was not caused by a conscience but produced it. I say the effect comes from the cause. God is conscious and produced conscience. You are basically saying that the cause doesn't possess the quality of the effect.
3) An intelligence is the only way to describe the incredible universe. You say that it came from something with an IQ of less than your cat or dog, (i.e. zero), and I say it came from God who is all knowing. When we can only see a tiny fraction of the spectrum, we see things we cannot even fathom. You say that the unfathomable system we call the universe ordered itself the way it did with no guidance whatsoever. I know you probably are not able to understand how foolish this is, but suffice to say, I would put my money on intelligence any day of the week when looking at anything that is ordered.
4) You believe that the Earth is flying through space and no one is in control. Yet the Earth just keeps sustaining order and life and you expect so every morning you wake up even though there is no intelligence, thought, or planning at any point involved. You cannot see the odds of this with no guidance or prior plan or cause. It is actually impossible.
5) I can show you how life comes from life and how rock comes from rock. You believe in faith that life came from non-life. Please explain.
6) Your belief doesn't explain anything. An infinite intelligent God explains everything. Why we see code like DNA. Why we see laws. Why we see biological computers called brains. Why we see biological lenses called eyes. You understand that all these things in synthetic form are created with much care and intelligence, yet when it comes to biological stuff, intelligence suddenly doesn't apply. Ironically I agree that intelligence doesn't apply if you believe this.
7) To say that there is no God and that everything also couldn't come from nothing, you are left with a something that must be eternal/infinite, gives laws, codes DNA, produces life. Right? Does that not suspiciously sound like God?Quote 1) Why rule out God if you ask “what is the difference”? If both can apply, why rule it out? I don't rule anything out. I am simply trying to get you to acknowledge that God is not the only reasonable possibility.
Quote 2) The universe contains life/conscience. You say the universe was not caused by a conscience but produced it. I say the effect comes from the cause. God is conscious and produced conscience. You are basically saying that the cause doesn't possess the quality of the effect. Already, you are back to cause and effect. We are discussing the possibility that the universe is un-caused, like you suggest your god is.
Quote 3) An intelligence is the only way to describe the incredible universe. You say that it came from something with an IQ of less than your cat or dog, (i.e. zero), and I say it came from God who is all knowing. When we can only see a tiny fraction of the spectrum, we see things we cannot even fathom. You say that the unfathomable system we call the universe ordered itself the way it did with no guidance whatsoever. I know you probably are not able to understand how foolish this is, but suffice to say, I would put my money on intelligence any day of the week when looking at anything that is ordered. Again, you are going back to the idea of “where did it come from”? That's not what we're discussing. We are discussing the possibility that the universe has always been.
As for intelligence and consciousness, I have personally theorized that consciousness is a fundamental characteristic of the universe, but I readily admit that I don't have any evidence for that, other than the same kind of speculation that you engage in when you suggest that intelligence and consciousness came from your god.
Quote 4) You believe that the Earth is flying through space and no one is in control. Yet the Earth just keeps sustaining order and life and you expect so every morning you wake up even though there is no intelligence, thought, or planning at any point involved. You cannot see the odds of this with no guidance or prior plan or cause. It is actually impossible. Actually, it's quite possible, and we have number of scientific theories that explain most of it. None of them require gods of any sort.
Quote 5) I can show you how life comes from life and how rock comes from rock. You believe in faith that life came from non-life. Please explain. Honestly, I don't know that much about abiogenesis, but the evidence does point to the idea that life on this planet started out quite simple and became the complex ecology that we have today, over the course of millions of years. That suggests to me a natural slow process not a “God spoke and it happened” process.
Your god can create the material universe out of nothing but can't create actual complex lifeforms without using the trial and error of natural selection (with a lot more error than successes)? That doesn't sound very God-like.
Quote 6) Your belief doesn't explain anything. An infinite intelligent God explains everything. Why we see code like DNA. Why we see laws. Why we see biological computers called brains. Why we see biological lenses called eyes. You understand that all these things in synthetic form are created with much care and intelligence, yet when it comes to biological stuff, intelligence suddenly doesn't apply. Ironically I agree that intelligence doesn't apply if you believe this. Actually, it's quite the opposite. Your explanation is basically, “God did it!” There are numerous scientific theories that explain much of what we see in the universe in great verifiable detail without any references to gods of any kind.
Quote 7) To say that there is no God and that everything also couldn't come from nothing, you are left with a something that must be eternal/infinite, gives laws, codes DNA, produces life. Right? Does that not suspiciously sound like God? That brings us to the biggest problem of all: how do you define God?
For most people, God is whatever we can't explain by any other means, which basically means that God is the personification of one's own ignorance.
Can you define God in a way that is actually specific and verifiable? If not, what's the point. How can you possibly know it's real?
Quote (t8 @ April 06 2012,13:07) What preceded the Big Bang
What do you mean preceded? Do you mean to ask what happened earlier in time?Stuart
Hi Stuart,
1. What exploded as a 'big bang'?
2. What energy caused this explosion?You can start with these two questions; OK?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ April 06 2012,18:07) Hi Stuart, 1. What exploded as a 'big bang'?
2. What energy caused this explosion?You can start with these two questions; OK?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Space-time inflated. It's not really an explosion.The word “caused” isn't helpful because it implies “went before” but time only starts at the big bang, so there is no such thing as “before the big bang”.
The matter / energy we see today is borrowed gravitational energy from the expansion of that inflating universe. If the universe reversed its expansion and began to contract, eventually all that matter / energy would be paid back.
The problem with what t8 says is that he won't say what he means by nothing (it's not an easy question) and he doesn't understand the true nature of “something”. The somethings we see around us, including the atoms that make up our own bodies, are a kind of bank loan from the expanded universe. We are made of expanded space-time.
In other words, t8's platitudinous uses of “nothing” and “god” don't even scratch the surface of the question of why there is a universe.
Does that help?
Stuart
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