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2 options:
Either something supernatural happened.
Or, something so highly improbably that it's virtually next to supernatural.
Either way, we have have the same basic conundrum.
Yup. It really is 2 options in that sense.
Except we never see the latter happen yet we see designers and living beings all the time.
Funny how they choose the option that is impossible.
How does this theory differ from the one in the bible T8? Something I have come to understand that theist and atheist are not very far apart in what they believe, they just use different subjects and nouns.
Even the story of creation is evolution, time and steps were taken to form what is. Something came from nothing. So adding either a god or a explosion to the story is really of no consequence. Making the argument null and void.
Quote (david @ Mar. 27 2012,14:21) 2 options: Either something supernatural happened.
Or, something so highly improbably that it's virtually next to supernatural.
Either way, we have have the same basic conundrum.
Hi David,It is not the same basic conundrum at all.
Highly improbable things do happen, just not frequently.
Supernatural things have never been proven to happen.They are merely things that have happened, and we don't know how.
TimI have never heard a single person who believes in evolution theorize that in the beginning there was absolutely nothing.
That is a foolish statement that I hear creationists use to ridicule science that they do not understand.Tim
Quote (princess @ April 04 2012,18:36) How does this theory differ from the one in the bible T8? Something I have come to understand that theist and atheist are not very far apart in what they believe, they just use different subjects and nouns. Even the story of creation is evolution, time and steps were taken to form what is. Something came from nothing. So adding either a god or a explosion to the story is really of no consequence. Making the argument null and void.
princessQuote Even the story of creation is evolution, time and steps were taken to form what is. Something came from nothing. So adding either a god or a explosion to the story is really of no consequence. Making the argument null and void. but their is a difference,and specially in personal interest,glory,
on one end you have the explosion,no one did it ,no men is guilty of anything ,we just have to survive with the outcome of the explosion, do the best we can for our self, that's the way it is ,now that we are closer to burn the planet,most of us men have to be sacrificed to dead for the glory of the elites in power ,but it seems that even the poor will defend that theory with their lives ,
so now the creation does make more sens and create order everywhere but not in the “explosion group ” why is that ??
no glory ,no personal gain,of cause their is corruption like religions ,but we do not talk about those wen we talk about the scriptures ,we have to let God stand on his own ground so to speak,so what is wrong with scriptures Princess
?because I can not see it ,I only see good in it ,
Quote (TimothyVI @ April 04 2012,21:11) I have never heard a single person who believes in evolution theorize that in the beginning there was absolutely nothing.
That is a foolish statement that I hear creationists use to ridicule science that they do not understand.Tim
Hi (to all – this is my first post)I saw this kind of discussion in other forums and they have never made any sense.
In my opinion it is obvious that there was never a time when there was nothing.
It is like saying something happened Spontaneously. No, it is just that we didn't know something was happening until it suddenly erupted in an act.
Also, Random. There is nothing that is RANDOM in the truest sense – only that the calculations required to work out the pattern of the thing is so complex that it would take longer to work it out than the result of working it out is worth.
Ok, so package the idea of Spontaneous and Random from the description given above and use them in every day situations – what happens. people come to believe that Spontinuity really exist and Randomness is beyond reality.
In my opinion, Scientist are only uncovering what God has created but they want to claim the discoveries as their own creation.
Here is my clincher that always shuts them up: WHY?
Here is the reasoning: If Life evolved from SURVIVAL ENZYMES what was their basis for this seeing that the ultimate result was always going to be DEATH. That is – the Universe will collapse back onto itself back to the nothing that it started out as.
What is the point – Oh, that is a WHAT question – sorry – WHY bother?
Oh yes, WHY do we care to be good if this is our job lot – to ultimately be destroyed – Why should we care?
Sorry for the heavy duty entrance but I have been in other forums so this is not a new question to me.
Here's my question. Where did God come from?
As I see it – at least as far as T8 has informed us ad nauseum – there are only three possibilities:
1. Someone
2. Something
3. NothingSince nothing can't produce anything, we can rule that out, and since a dead non-intelligent thing can't produce an intelligent living being, that only leaves someone. We can argue about who that someone is, but by logic, we can firmly establish that someone created God.
This is really simple. A child can understand this.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 05 2012,04:48) Here's my question. Where did God come from? As I see it – at least as far as T8 has informed us ad nauseum – there are only three possibilities:
1. Someone
2. Something
3. NothingSince nothing can't produce anything, we can rule that out, and since a dead non-intelligent thing can't produce an intelligent living being, that only leaves someone. We can argue about who that someone is, but by logic, we can firmly establish that someone created God.
This is really simple. A child can understand this.
Hi WIT,So who created the person who created God?
Porterman,
Welcome to the forum! Great first post!
Here's my short answer.
Why do beaver build damns? They will eventually wash away, and the beaver is only going to die some day.
Why do ants build nests? They are going to be destroyed, and the ants only live a few months anyway.
Why do birds fly south for the winter? If they don't die this winter, they will die eventually anyway.
I could go on, but hopefully, you get the point.
Life itself is the why. It's the same reason why (most) believers don't become suicidal immediately upon conversion. Even those who believe that there is an infinitely superior afterlife awaiting them still do their best to enjoy the one life that we actually know we have to live.
I live to create, to explain, to understand. You probably live for similar reasons. The answer to the why is as varied as the people to whom you put the question. That's what makes life interesting.
As for the question of “Why be good?”, let me answer it this way:
Do you love anyone? I don't mean romantic love only, I mean do you like being with certain people? Well, if you hurt those people constantly, or gave them the indication that you could turn on them in a moments notice by how you treat others, how much of a relationship do you think you would be able to have with those people?
We are social creatures. Morality has everything to do with how we interact with each other. It has nothing to do with a god of any kind. It is no coincidence that criminals are generally also social misfits.
For more on the morality issue see this link.
Quote (Porterman @ April 04 2012,23:52) Hi WIT, So who created the person who created God?
If you haven't read much on this forum, then my post will be completely out of context for you. My post was a parody of an argument that T8 has made on literally dozens of occasions on this board. I actually don't think that God was created, but I also don't think that the universe had to be created either.The universe is. We know nothing beyond that.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 05 2012,11:48) Here's my question. Where did God come from? As I see it – at least as far as T8 has informed us ad nauseum – there are only three possibilities:
1. Someone
2. Something
3. NothingSince nothing can't produce anything, we can rule that out, and since a dead non-intelligent thing can't produce an intelligent living being, that only leaves someone. We can argue about who that someone is, but by logic, we can firmly establish that someone created God.
This is really simple. A child can understand this.
hiremove #3 nothing is nothing so it does not exist useless word for describing something
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 05 2012,05:16) Quote (Porterman @ April 04 2012,23:52) Hi WIT, So who created the person who created God?
If you haven't read much on this forum, then my post will be completely out of context for you. My post was a parody of an argument that T8 has made on literally dozens of occasions on this board. I actually don't think that God was created, but I also don't think that the universe had to be created either.The universe is. We know nothing beyond that.
Hi WIT,Quote As for the question of “Why be good?”, let me answer it this way: Do you love anyone? I don't mean romantic love only, I mean do you like being with certain people? Well, if you hurt those people constantly, or gave them the indication that you could turn on them in a moments notice by how you treat others, how much of a relationship do you think you would be able to have with those people?
I think you misunderstood what I was saying. Morals is something that happens at a higher level of species. What encouraged the SURVIVAL ENZYMES to develop 'Morals' in the first place – What about the 'SELFISH GENE'?
Is there a constructive design process already taking shaping – are we creating the process by saying 'What If” and then designing a solution.
Naturally, being above the ENZYME level we can see what will happen in the beginning, and the middle and the end (oh, doesn't that seem like 'A God').
Who takes the good behaviour genes and encourages them and destroys the bad behaviour genes. Who adds in an unknown component that the SELFISH gene would NEVER have added in as it appears in the shortsight that it is working against it?
But listen up: Does the Enzyme know that it is US that is designing its future? No, it think its doing it itself.
Quote (Porterman @ April 05 2012,14:16) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 05 2012,05:16) Quote (Porterman @ April 04 2012,23:52) Hi WIT, So who created the person who created God?
If you haven't read much on this forum, then my post will be completely out of context for you. My post was a parody of an argument that T8 has made on literally dozens of occasions on this board. I actually don't think that God was created, but I also don't think that the universe had to be created either.The universe is. We know nothing beyond that.
Hi WIT,Quote As for the question of “Why be good?”, let me answer it this way: Do you love anyone? I don't mean romantic love only, I mean do you like being with certain people? Well, if you hurt those people constantly, or gave them the indication that you could turn on them in a moments notice by how you treat others, how much of a relationship do you think you would be able to have with those people?
I think you misunderstood what I was saying. Morals is something that happens at a higher level of species. What encouraged the SURVIVAL ENZYMES to develop 'Morals' in the first place – What about the 'SELFISH GENE'?
Is there a constructive design process already taking shaping – are we creating the process by saying 'What If” and then designing a solution.
Naturally, being above the ENZYME level we can see what will happen in the beginning, and the middle and the end (oh, doesn't that seem like 'A God').
Who takes the good behaviour genes and encourages them and destroys the bad behaviour genes. Who adds in an unknown component that the SELFISH gene would NEVER have added in as it appears in the shortsight that it is working against it?
But listen up: Does the Enzyme know that it is US that is designing its future? No, it think its doing it itself.
hiQuote But listen up: Does the Enzyme know that it is US that is designing its future? No, it think its doing it itself. who told that little thing to do what he as to do
Quote (terraricca @ April 05 2012,07:20) who told that little thing to do what he as to do
Hi Terraricca,That is yet another question.
In fact I think any argument surrounding this topic is nonsensical.
I only take part to add my own weight for fun – I really have to wonder (i don't really!) what Athiest and Skeptics and Scientists (the mass majority who do not believe in God) hope to achieve with their ideas.
There can only be one out come for them – annihilation of all LIFE but especially that of the intelligent human race – and ultimately the universe – and for what – nothing.
When – several multi-billion years in the future when the Sun explodes (or collapses).
“oh well, just time for another cup of Tea!”
It came – it existed – and it went
Quote (TimothyVI @ April 05 2012,00:11) I have never heard a single person who believes in evolution theorize that in the beginning there was absolutely nothing.
That is a foolish statement that I hear creationists use to ridicule science that they do not understand.Tim
Thanks for the support Tim. You are right it is ripe for ridicule. However you are wrong in thinking that no one believes everything came from nothing. I watched a video of a prominent scientists who attended a Dawkins rally who said that all came from zero energy, hence, any positive energy is but a fluctuation and so is negative energy and in the end it equates to zero energy and hence no need for God because it all came from nothing. Also, most Atheists actually believe that everything came from nothing its just that they haven't thought about this part deeply enough. Do your own survey and ask, “what caused the Big Bang” or “what was before the Big Bang”. You are less likely to hear that something eternal existed before the Big Bang from anyone who does not believe in God.Quote (t8 @ April 05 2012,08:24) Quote (TimothyVI @ April 05 2012,00:11) I have never heard a single person who believes in evolution theorize that in the beginning there was absolutely nothing.
That is a foolish statement that I hear creationists use to ridicule science that they do not understand.Tim
Thanks for the support Tim. You are right it is ripe for ridicule. However you are wrong in thinking that no one believes everything came from nothing. I watched a video of a prominent scientists who attended a Dawkins rally who said that all came from zero energy, hence, any positive energy is but a fluctuation and so is negative energy and in the end it equates to zero energy and hence no need for God because it all came from nothing. Also, most Atheists actually believe that everything came from nothing its just that they haven't thought about this part deeply enough. Do your own survey and ask, “what caused the Big Bang” or “what was before the Big Bang”. You are less likely to hear that something eternal existed before the Big Bang from anyone who does not believe in God.
t8,Doh, what happened to that post where you said 'Good post Porterman'?
Did you delete it…?
Ok, As regards Science – I want to say something profound:
“Be careful not to deride SCIENCE – Science is not at fault – It is those who abuse it and makes the discoveries into their own Religion that excludes the 'CAUSATION FACTOR' (God ALMIGHTY)”.When God is factored in then all those niggling questions fall away.
– The 'WHY' question is elliminated
– The answer is: “Because GOD”
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