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Quote Is Yahshua an “extremely poor transliteration?” Should Jesus name be “Joshua” as OneSpirit says?
If God's name should be Yahwah, then transliteriting his son's name as Joshua would be grossly inconsistent, wouldn't it?I never said that “Joshua” was the correct transliteration. In fact, in my post, I used a form of the correct transliteration, which would be “Yahshua”. (Note how the “Yah” in “Yahshua” directly connects the name to “Yahweh”.) I only used the NKJV to point out that “Jesus” is not even remotely close to the correct transliteration. “Joshua” is better, but it does make the same mistake of adding the “J”, as you have pointed out is done throughout modern translations.
Quote Something I've been wondering about. The English name “Elijah”?
Why is there a “J” in it? Wasn't it a Hebrew name? I know this proves nothing, but still, what does it mean that Elijah in English is spelt as it is, with a “J” for the Jah part?Isn't this how Bible names have been translated. Jesus, Jonah, etc.
Again, I'm not a linguist, but doesn't translating the divine name as Yahweh contradict the way we translate yod almost everywhere else in the Bible. We do not translate Yona, but Jonah, Joshua not Yeshua. Jerusalem, not Yerusalem. Jehosaphat, Jonathan, Judah, Judas?Jehu, Jehoikim, Jehoshua, Jehosheba, Jehoshebeath, Jehosheba, Jehoram, Jehoram, Jehonathan, Jehonadab, Jehoiarib, Jehoash, Jehoiada, Jehohanan, Jehoaddah, Jehoaddan, Jehoahaz, Jehizkiah, etc, etc, etc.
there are many others.Again, I don't know a lot about translating. I do know that for some reason, these names (which probably mostly are connected to God's name) have the letter “J” in them.
Why haven't modern translations corrected the use of the title “LORD” in place of the Creator's name in the more than 6000 places that it is supposed to appear in scripture? The answer is the same as to your question above: men are more consumed with tradition than they are with Truth.
The fact of the matter is that there is no “J” in Hebrew, so a Hebrew derived name should not have that sound.
OneSpirit wrote and quoted David,
Quote And no, “Jehovah” is not a proper transliteration of the divine name. Does it bother you that “Jesus” isn't either? OneSpirit said,
Quote Yes. It is a complete butchering of the original name given to the Messiah, and modern translators are well enough aware of this mistake to have fixed the problem. For example: In the KJV, Acts 7:45 reads:
Quote
Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David;In the NKJV, Acts 7:45 reads:
Quote
which our fathers, having received it in turn, also brought with Joshua into the land possessed by the Gentiles, whom God drove out before the face of our fathers until the days of David,The NKJV fixes the extremely poor transliteration the name “Yahshua”, as far as the OT leader is concerned, but they left the name of the NT Messiah untouched, even though both men share the same Hebrew name.
Well, it definitely does bother me too that the Messiah's name was butchered, and I also pointed this out in one of my posts concerning (Acts 7:45) and (Also Heb.4:8) of the mistake of the Old K.J.V., and that the Messiah had the same name as Yahshua son of nun( Look under an earlier post of mine and you will find it.), but as always all my posts have been dis-credited and are ignored.
OneSpirit also said,…
Quote Why was the name changed, first in Greek, and subsequently in English? I am sure Eliyah has some theories on that, (though personally I haven't been able to substantiate any one theory), but it is clear that the new name certainly doesn't have the same connection to the Creator's name as the original one does. In fact, it has a stronger connection with the name “Zeus”, (especially when you consider the original pronounciation of “Jesus”, which sounded more like “Hay-zoos”), than it has connection with the name YHWH. I also pointed out the above connection He'sus, Baccus, Nimrod, and the symbol IHS that is on the Pope's very hat, and how the Greeks and Romans wanted a Saviour, but not a Hebrew Jewish one.
Look under the topic of Exposing the K.J.V.Bible, and other topics, but here is part of it.
Quote JESUS The original name of our Saviour was not Jesus or Iesous, but Yahshua. In our Saviour's word, His Father's Name was given to Him. The Father's Name is Yahweh.
Two factors contributed greatly to the substitution and the distortion of our Saviour's Name. The first was the superstitious teaching of the Jews that the Father's Name is not to be uttered and that the Name must be “disguised” outside of the temple of Jerusalem. The second factor was the strong anti-Judaism feeling that prevailed amongst the Gentiles. They wanted a saviour, but not a Jewish one.
According to Wörterbuch der Antike, the substitute name can be traced back to the Latin Iesus and the Greek Iesous. Then, it can be traced back to an adaptation of the name of the Greek healing goddess Ieso. The Greek-English Lexicon of Liddell and Scott, confirm this. To Greeks who venerated a healing goddess Ieso, a saviour Iesous must have been most acceptable, suggests a writer in Philologische Wochenschrift. In spite of attempts to justify the “translating” of the Father's Name and His Son's Name, it cannot be done. A person's name remains the same in all languages.
The father of the Greek goddess Ieso was Asclepius, the deity of healing. The father of Asclepius was Apollo, the great sun-deity. Thus, the name Iesous can be traced back to sun-worship. There is also a relationship to the Egyptian goddess Isis and her son Isu. According to Reallexikon der Agpyptischen Religionsgeschichte, the name of Isis appears in hieroglyphic inscriptions as ESU or ES. Isu and Esu sound exactly like “Jesu” that the Saviour is called in the translated Scriptures of many languages.
Esus was a Gallic deity comparable to the Scandanavian Odin. The Greek abbreviation for Iesous is IHS, which is found on many inscriptions made by the Church during the middle Ages. IHS was the mystery name of Bacchus (Tammuz), another sun-deity. These are a few examples only.
The incription of IHS is branded on the Catholic Pope's hat, and all the Protestants still follow the Mother.
ONESPIRIT also said,…
“””
Quote By the way, your refusal to address Eliyah without changing his name to “Elijah” is one of the rudest things that I have witnessed on this board. Unless he has expressed a lack of preference for either version, it is extremely arrogant of you to presume to change his name without consent. It shows a complete lack of respect for him as a person, but perhaps that is your intent. Well, i've been dis-respected as person on this board from the 3rd day that i arrived here, i've been called Eli., and i've been called a letter E, then I was condemned when i showed dis-respect back, but I did ask those whom I dis-respected back to please forgive me, as I privately and publically did to IS 1:18 .
However, as I said before, I'm not so much concerned with my name and what people call me, but what concerns me is what I and others call the true Creator Yah and the true Saviour Yahshua Messiah, and the true respect we should be giving them and their true Names.
But thanks anyway ONESPIRIT.
ONESPIRIT also said,…
Quote (I should also point out that I am defending Eliyah as a person. I am not defending his beliefs, because I certainly don't agree with much of what he has to say.) Oh really now, well maybe you should go back and re-read all my posts, but this time more carefully, for you may just see what you have said above are exactly part of my years of research into these matters, and I haven't seen you or anyone else on this forum dis-proving and answering those questions in the posts with scriptures either, but then, I don't ask people to agree with me, as I was accused of before by Nick and David on this forum.
It is exactly true as a certain person on this forum said to me, “”I think people are blind to what I write, as does everyone else whose posts get ignored or rejected.””
Unquote.Heavenly Father Yah, i'm so hurt and i'm so disgusted and about ready to leave this forum, I have done what you have requested, where else do I go from here.
David,
You said,
Quote I'm sorry if I offended you Eliyah by using the English version of your name “EliJAH.” OneSpirit, did you know that I originally told Eliyah why I was using EliJah when I started speaking to him. He said nothing of it and it hasn't seemed to bother him. Since it seemed from the beginning that Eliyah was going to be all about pronouncing God's name, I thought I would make my points with his name.
My reason for using the English “EliJah” was twofold:
It not bothering him illustrates a point very nicely with regard to the use of the pronunciation of the divine name.
Secondly, that letter “J.” Why? I'm sorry if I offended you Eliyah by using the English version of your name “EliJAH.” OneSpirit, did you know that I originally told Eliyah why I was using EliJah when I started speaking to him. He said nothing of it and it hasn't seemed to bother him.David, would it had made any difference to you and anyone else, if I had objected?
I've been accused of everything already on this forum by you and Nick both, but what does or does not offend me as disrespect makes no matter, however, I'M NOT THE CREATOR YAH AND I'M NOT THE MESSIAH YAHSHUA, that you or anyone else should dis-respect them, and I have shown around a hundred scriptures to you and everyone else proving that it definately does matter to them, which you have plainly ignored and dis-respected.
And for umpteenth time, there was on letter J in neither Hebrew, and neither in the English Alphebet untill 5 or 6 hundered years ago, and the English transliterated Name of YAHWEH and Yahshua, are not Hebrew , but English transliterations from the Hebrew.
No, people want to keep their substitute pagan names and titles of tradition rather that correct their errors in the English translations, and that is why most all the Hebrew names have retained the letter ” J ” in place of the correct ” Y “, so again, truth is substituted for pagan traditions even in the scriptures.
That is also WHY the pagan title of L-rd was substituted in place of the Creator's Name more than 6, 823 times in scriptures, because of men wanting to keep their own pagan traditions rather than keeping Yah's 3rd Commandment, of not bringing His Name to VAIN or nothing or naught as all the English translations of scriptures have done.
Full Well did Isa-yah prophesy of you hypocrits, full well you reject the Commandments of Yah, that you may keep your own traditions.
Who said that? How many people will wilfully keep fulfilling that saying of Messiah ?
Eliyah,
My apologies. I did not mean to imply that I don't agree with anything that you have said. Obviously, there are some beliefs that we hold in common, namely that “Jehovah” and “Jesus” are false names for the Creator and His annointed, and that knowingly using those names, and shunning the more accurate names, constitutes a level of disrespect and irreverance to the Almighty. However, I do disagree with you about trying to eliminate words like “god” and “lord” from our vocabulary. I simply don't believe that it is blasphemous to use potentially pagan words in a language that is derived from pagan tongues. It just bothers me that as a JW, a person who is supposed to be concerned with advancing the Creator's actual name, David, and his organization, are content to promote a false version of the Almighty's self-described name.
Quote Exodus 3:
13 Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?”
14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” 15 Moreover God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘[YHWH], the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’No eliyah. I do not think you are correct. I believe they substituted the Name out of a very real fear of God. That is the fear we are told is the beginning of Wisdom.The people who had seen God destroy men for stumbling carrying the Ark of the Covenant. Perhaps we should learn from them?
Nick, the Jewish people substituted His Name because of a mis-understanding of the 3rd Commandment( In Exod.) and because of a verse in( Lev.), however, to completely veil and cover up His Name also brings His Name to VAIN or nought among the common people and it will be forgotten, and therefore violates and breaks the 3rd Commandment.
Furthermore, the English translations have done this through merely traditions of what the masses of people prefer, as most all translators admit in the Introductions and Prefaces of their translations.
Nick, do you not prefer to be called by your own personal name, or would you rather some person keep calling to filk or tick, even tho.you had corrected them several times for calling you such out of dis-respect?
Nick, I don't know if your Married and have any children or not.
But let me give you an Example.
If your son or daughter is say 16 years of age( and does not have a speech impairment), and that son or daughter keeps calling its mom by the title name of dumb after he or she has been told not to do so in private or in public, but he or she re-peatedly calls its mom by title name of dumb out of dis-respect, would you or your wife continually allow he or she to do so, and would you think it was ok?
ONESPIRIT,
The title of 'lord' when referring to men( as also the scriptures do) is not in error, however if this title is used as a noun name in substitute place of the Creator's Memorial Name of Yahweh, then it becomes Idolatry, as was the Children of Israel during the time of Old Eliyahu the Prophet in that they worshipped and used the connected title name of baal god of fortune, and this is the same title name that has been substituted for Yahweh Elohim in the scriptures.
If Adonia meaning Lord is connected and pronounced with Yahweh's Name, this in and of itself would not constitute Idolatry because His Name is also specified, however, if the title of only Adonia meaning Lord is only specified in substitute for His Name, then it constitutes Idolatry and violation of the 3rd commandment.
But ofcourse concerning the English pagan word g-d is applied exclusively to a Babylonian Deity( Isa.65:11, check the comments in Lexicons), and is as pagan as easter=astarte( Judges, Kings, Ezek.8), and christmas=(Yer.10), and where one was practiced and worshipped, so was the other along side them as it is today.
Nick, read closely the 2nd and 3rd commandments, and notice the meanings of the word VAIN, i'm not presuming anything, it is plainly stated in the commandments.
Will you answer my questions above?
Just to be clear, as I've already said a couple times, I've never “shunned” the use of Yahweh or any of the many many many other possible correct transliterations. To use God's name, and to reflect the glory of his name is the important thing.
I have questioned the idea that his name MUST be pronounced the same way all over the world, the way it originally was, which we do not know.
There is a grand differnce between calling Eliyah “Elijah” and calling him “dude,” “guy,” or “hey you there.”
When I say: “Elijah,” everyone immediately knows who I am speaking of, as does Eliyah. Thus, the purpose of language and words, to communicate thoughts. Jesus condemned the Pharisees. Any idea why?
For those that wish to change history and language, I will leave you to it. It seems however that we're stuck where we are. Right now, where language and history have brought us is with “Jehovah” as the name for God as understood by most people. It has all the right connotations.david.
Thanks for the clarification Eliyah. I will consider your words, (as I have in the past), but I certainly can not say that I agree with you at this point.
Your words are strong, but I am not quite convinced that they are completely grounded in scripture. I agree with you that substituting the Almighty's name in scripture with titles is completely wrong, and probably idolatrous, but I don't believe that all cases of substituting YHWH's name with such titles in speech is idolatry.
David,
If it( Je'hovah) does as you say, then answer…1. Can you explain to us how the JWs Organization decided and come to the conclusion on the English Transliteration of the form name ' Jehovah ' to begin with and where did it originate from and from whom?
You never answered that two part question David.
Quote Just to be clear, as I've already said a couple times, I've never “shunned” the use of Yahweh or any of the many many many other possible correct transliterations. To use God's name, and to reflect the glory of his name is the important thing. David, by picking a name to use in common parlance, you have shown a preference. You favor one name over the other. By your own actions, you show that you disfavor the name “Yahweh”.
Whether or not you formerly “shun” the name “Yahweh”, your actions have already shown that you, at the very least, consider it inferior to “Jehovah”.
Quote “Jehovah” as the name for God as understood by most people. It has all the right connotations. So is “Yahweh”. Do a google search. It is not exactly an unknown name. I will remind you again that both words are English transliterations. Both of them are understood by English speaking people. Do the search.
ONE SPIRIT,
I don't mean for my words to be strong or sound harsh by no means, however, if you get time go back and re-read some of my posts with the scriptures, especially the one on Old Eliyahu The Prophet, and look at the words in the original.
There is another example in scripture where the Children of Israel were using those title names and even bringing their worship into The Tabernacle of Yahweh , just start looking up scriptures on Baal, Baal Gad, and Baalim, but when you find them, check them out in original Hebrew words of definitions.
Thanks, Yah bless.
Look at them at
Quote (Eliyah @ Sep. 28 2005,22:30) Nick, read closely the 2nd and 3rd commandments, and notice the meanings of the word VAIN, i'm not presuming anything, it is plainly stated in the commandments. Will you answer my questions above?
Hi eliyah,
Ex 20.2[NASB]
” I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before Me. You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them;for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generation of those who hate Me, but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain”Now your implication was?
Nick, please, do I have to explain in detail study for you every word of the 3rd Commandment including the word VAIN , or can you not check this out from a Hebrew concordance, and an English Dictionary ?
look up the word ” VAIN “ at…
http://www.blueletterbible.org/
and in an English Dictionary too.
VAIN
Thou shalt not take 05375 the name 08034 of the LORD 03068 thy God 0430 in vain 07723; for the LORD 03068 will not hold him guiltless 05352 that taketh 05375 his name 08034 in vain 07723.
Vain=Hebrew Number 7723 from the same as 07722 in the sense of desolating, 1) emptiness, vanity, falsehood
a) emptiness, nothingness, vanity
b) emptiness of speech, lying
c) worthlessness (of conduct)
Hebrew number 7722 2) devastation, ruin, waste
a) devastation, ruin
b) ruin, waste (of land)
desolation 5, destruction 3, desolate 2, destroy 1, storm 1,wasteness 1; 13When this verse is more closely translated…
Thou shalt not make the name of YHWH=YAH 03068 thy Elohim 0430 into NOTHINGNESS 07723; for YHWH=YAH 03068 will not hold him guiltless that makes his name into NOTHINGNESS 07723.
Yah will not let those go unpunished that makes or brings His Name to mean WORTHLESSNESS, NOTHING, DESOLATE, EMPTINESS, FALSEHOOD, DEVASTATION, RUIN, DESTROY, WASTENESS and VANITY.
As that is exactly what most all the translations of scriptures have done to His Name for the sake of tradition for the preference of the masses of people.
That is not the only commandment that has been violated and broken in doing this, but also the command to not add to nor take away from the words of this book as was originally written by its Author Yah All Mighty Himself.
How would you like it, if your very name was substituted and left out by another name that does not identify you personally as the author of a best written book by you ?
If such was done today to an Author of a Book written, the Author of that book would be very angry and up in someone's face for making such a mistake, and would be demanding retribution for such a mistake too.
Well, YAH ALMIGHTY the very Author of His Best selling Book the Scriptures, is also going to demand retribution on a rebellious society that has wilfully brought His Name to mean NOTHING and left His Name out of the very book that He Authored unless a drastic move is made to correct such a stupid error.
Still, people will reason and say like the Proverbs of “” well it seems like to me, or I don't think such and such is wrong “”.
Well, the Proverbs 14:12 and 16:25 says “” there is a way that seems right to a man, but the end of that seem right thinking are the ways of death, and in this instance, it is the second death Rev.20:14) that will be implimented.
Eliyah C.
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