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My husband and I have been at our church about 5 years, my daughter & family led us to the Lord and this church. We have been told that we are “called” here but we ourselves have never felt it. It's a very small church with over half being Pastors family. While we love them all and work – we are deacon & deaconess, sound system ops, Sunday school supers…. this last week Pastor wanted all the workers to sign a new “agreement” no big deal but there was one line we questioned due to the wording, Pastor didn't give us a chance to explain our question – he got angry and “somewhat yelled” “then don't sign it – I don't need you!” We know he's been upset that some workers have been missing alot but the main one he's upset with wasn't even there. Isn't it wrong for a Pastor to yell at his workers like this? My daughter says it doesn't bother her, she's used to it. We feel differently, we know he's human but how can we grow like this? We have felt like we should leave on other occasions but keep sticking it out – when or how will be know if we ARE called here?
Wecome Melinda,
Are you yet established in Christ? Have you gone through the gate and had your names written in the book of life? Do you have the witnesses of your decision according to scripture written in heaven?that is what matters and must be your first priority.
If you have then are you hearing the voice of the shepherd or the voice of a stranger? Are you being fed. Do you have the promised freedom or are you enslaved by man? Are you growing ever closer to the God of love who has bought you and brought you into His kingdom?If you are in Christ and daily seeking the Father's will you will be in that will and will know peace.
Also we should be careful as to what we partake in. We too can be held accountable for just partaking. If you know it is wrong, then do not partake.
You are free to align yourself with any true believer in God's kingdom if you yourself are a true believer. It doesn't even have to be a denomination. I personally find meeting in homes to be a good way. Power trips are usually eliminated in the home setting and people have to show respect when they are in a home.
But the way denominations are structured, we usually find some guy at the top and all the workers below. But fellowship is not like going to work. It is a time of rest and rejuvination. Even healing when we pray for one another.
When we break bread together it is a time of unity. It is not about submission to man-made authority. Personally I would leave but that's me. You are free to do what you want and the best thing you can do is listen to what God may be saying in this situation.
Yes we know that we are saved, thank GOD!! We are a non- denominatioal (or muti-denominational as we call it since we have many different backgrounds). Pastor does teach from the Bible and we have grown in the Lord. It's simply that we feel that we have stopped growing and learning for quite some time now. We understand that we have to submit to those who have rule over us – but in my heart as much as I love Pastor – I DON”T believe he has the right to yell at us. Again, I want to follow GOD not me – it's breaking my heart that if we leave I worry, will it cause problems with our daughter and family, I know the grandkids ages 9&7 will be troubled, the church has so few workers I feel guilty to leave our load on others…. These are all reasons of the “flesh” I know but it all keeps going around in my mind and heart. I wish I could KNOW if or if not we am called to this church. My heart aches….
Quote (t8 @ April 27 2005,01:13) But the way denominations are structured, we usually find some guy at the top and all the workers below. But fellowship is not like going to work.
I think you're probably right. Just as a point of interest, my church has no hierarchy at all, and teaching, pastoral and administrative work is pretty evenly spread around.We do have an arranging committee of (generally) elder brothers, but this is elected completely democratically every year, and no positions are paid.
I started life in one church. The minister that baptised me also married us.
I've been in churches where the Holy Spirit has just flooded the place, and churches where I've been just a number. Can't honestly tell you at this point how many different denominations I've attended, but have always found there are places that I have no business being, and places that are lukewarm, and places that are on fire for God and His teachings.
One verse that sticks in my mind:
Matthew 10:14
If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town.
I don't have a 'home' church any longer, preferring to go where the Lord leads, and more often than not in the last 15 years, it's been to group studies in private homes.
Talk to your husband, he is your partner as well as head of the house. Together, talk privately with the minister and voice your heart, bring what is hidden to the light and judgement of the Lord.
You (yourself, your husband, and the minister) need to be in accord with this descision.
God bless,
CopperHi Melinda, it's pretty tough knowing the heart of God sometimes. I have had similar struggles, but when I said to God that I wasn't moving churches unless He told me to (based on the scripture where Jesus said I do nothing unless I see my Father do it first Jn 5:19), He soon gave me very clear direction to move. The other family members were taken care of by His grace, so what could have been an issue wasn't.
As far as your pastor is concerned, I don't believe personally that we as free believers should have to sign anything. Can I suggest that you go to your pastor with someone else of like mind to discuss these things with him.
God bless you as you follow Him with all your heart.
Hi,
Many people are worried that to question a pastor is to doubt the authorities appointed by God.
But God wants each of us to be first established in Christ by rebirth and then let other things fall into place knowing God is in charge. Besides most pastors have yet to enter the body of Christ so how could they be God appointed leaders? It is unwise to follow men.MATTHEW 7:16-20
“By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men].”In answer to the original question asked, here are some thoughts:
maintain neutrality in political conflicts.
–Isaiah 2:4produce good fruitage by doing God’s will.
–Matthew 7:13-23display true love among themselves.
–John 13:35; 1 John 4:20speak everywhere in unison.
–Micah 2:12do not imitate the wrong attitudes and conduct of the world around them.
–John 17:16bear witness to the truth and make disciples.
–Matthew 24:14; 28:19,20enjoy meeting regularly for mutual encouragement.
–Hebrews 10:25praise God as an international body.
–Revelation 7:9,10—stick to the Bible rather than personal opinions, worshiping Jehovah God “with spirit and truth,” just as Jesus Christ said to do. This means rejecting religious falsehoods and complying with God’s written Word.—John 4:23, 24; 2 Tim. 3:15-17.
—Going to people rather than wait for them to come to us, accepting Christ’s commission to preach and to teach, and imitating his example of searching out honesthearted ones, looking for them at their homes, on the street, or wherever they may be found.—Matt. 9:35; 10:11; 28:19, 20; Acts 10:42.
—Provide Bible instruction for everyone without charge: They would freely expend their resources and energy, devoting time to God’s service. Impartially, they would study the Bible with all kinds of people.—Matt. 10:8; Acts 10:34, 35; Rev. 22:17.
—They would be well trained to help people spiritually, by means of their personal study of the Bible and the instruction provided at congregation meetings, they would have ongoing theocratic education, which enables them to enlighten others spiritually.—Isa. 54:13; 2 Tim. 2:15; 1 Pet. 3:15.
—They would take the truth seriously, applying it in our daily lives: Because of their love for God, they would make changes, bringing their lives into harmony with his will. Their Christlike new personality attracts others to the truth.—Col. 3:9, 10; Jas. 1:22, 25; 1 John 5:3.
—They would endeavor to live and work with others in peace: Cultivating godly qualities helps us to guard our actions and speech. They would “seek peace and pursue it” with all persons.—1 Pet. 3:10, 11; Eph. 4:1-3.
Some beliefs to consider:
No Trinity
The Bible does not teach the Trinity doctrine. Rather, it says that there is only one true and eternal God. “Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.” (Deuteronomy 6:4) He is the Creator—eternal, almighty, without equal. Jesus is not Almighty God. Jesus lived on earth as a perfect man and died for imperfect mankind. God kindly accepted the death of Jesus as a ransom, and thus through him is the salvation of the faithful. This is God’s will.—Luke 22:42; Romans 5:12.No Immortal Soul
What happens to people when they die? God’s Word says: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.” (Ecclesiastes 9:5) Man does not have an immortal soul. People who think they are talking to the dead are really communicating with demons. Similarly, prayers for the dead benefit no one except the clergy who are paid to utter them.Resurrection
Man’s real hope is the resurrection, the coming forth of the dead to an earth restored to Paradise conditions. Those who have served God will be blessed for their faithfulness. Those who have died without finding God will have that opportunity then. Thus, “there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.” (Acts 24:15) Only those whom God judges unworthy will not receive a resurrection.No Hellfire
A loving God would not create a place where the dead suffer eternally. God himself described the burning and torturing of humans as “a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart.”—Jeremiah 7:31.No Fate
God does not write anything on the foreheads of people. There is no fate that determines our future before we are born. We are responsible for what we do, for the choices we make. “Each of us will render an account for himself to God.”—Romans 14:12.No Clergy Class
Everyone dedicated to God is equal in His eyes. True worshipers are all brothers and sisters. God did not appoint an elevated clergy class. Jesus said: “Everyone that exalts himself will be humiliated, but he that humbles himself will be exalted.” (Luke 18:14) God will judge adversely those who through religion elevate themselves over others.—Matthew 23:4-12.No Idolatry
“God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.” (John 4:24) True worshipers do not use idols. And they do not make pilgrimages to certain places to worship idols viewed as especially holy.High Moral Standards
Jesus described how to recognize true worshipers when he said: “This is my commandment, that you love one another just as I have loved you.” (John 15:12, 13) Another chapter in the Bible says: “The fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control.” (Galatians 5:22, 23) Those manifesting these qualities do not lie, steal, gamble, abuse drugs, or commit sexual immorality. (Ephesians 4:25-28) They love God, so they avoid things that God hates. These principles should govern our lives.The Approaching End of This World
What makes our time different from other times? Fulfillment of prophecy shows that we are living in the last days of this system of things, this world. (Daniel 2:44) Today, the issue is, Do the things we do please God? God is one, and there can be only one true religion. This religion cannot be out of harmony with the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel. Hence, we must examine that Word.
Whatever your religion, you need to do the same. Nobody can make a decision for you in this regard. Remember: “Each of us will render an account for himself to God.”—Romans 14:12.I was just reading on this site about 'which church is the right church”. I havent finished reading it yet but it mentioned the Tower of Babel. The Tower of Babel was something I never really understood except the fact it was the time our language was confused. So I did a search on the Tower of Babel and came across this site http://www.ldolphin.org/babel.html
The section written by Ray C Stedman really had me by surprise. Was the Tower of Babel actually a church?? or something similar?
Thanks in Advance
Hugs
PhoenixPS If this should be a separate topic then Im sorry I posted in here.
Quote Was the Tower of Babel actually a church?? I would say that it was likely a ziggurat to be used for false worship.
Here is an important truth. If you are saved, you are a member of the Church now, whether or not you go to a Sunday meeting or not. That is because Jesus Christ's Church is made up of all true believers from all peoples. Remember that only people who are saved can belong to the Body of Christ.
If you are a practicing sinner, or if you have no faith, or you reject God, then you cannot belong to the Church, (unless you turn from your sins and serve God). Yet these types of people can belong to denominations and many do.
So here we can see a contradiction. Practicing sinners can and do belong to denominations, (as well as the saved), but scriptures are quite clear that only the saved belong to his church.
Quote (david @ Nov. 04 2006,01:18) MATTHEW 7:16-20
“By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men].”
Yes the gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church and the Church stands to this day.But the Church didn't change it's name to the Jehovah Witnesses a hundred or couple of hundred years ago.
The Church is the Body of Christ.
If you belong to Christ, then you are a child of God and you are a living stone in the Church.
People, beware of those who try to lure you into their denomination or cult.
Hi T8. In a post to me, in the “encouragement” thread, you listed off some things. I then responded and commented on your point #3:
Quote Posted: Feb. 18 2007,01:55 EDIT QUOTE
Quote
3) The world is where I put this organisation [JW's]. But I also believe that there are members in that organisation that are in the Church too. In other words I think there are true believers or children of God probably in many perhaps, most denominations and other bodies. That is why we are told to come out of Babylon.
–T8Question T8. Please answer it. If there are “true believers or children of God” in “many” or even “most” denominations…..my question is, which are the denominations that don't have any true believers in them?
Could you please provide a list? Because it would sure be important to stay out of these denominations, the ones that have no true believers in them. And how can you tell which are these? Or can you tell? IF YOU CAN'T TELL, then how do you know that there are some denominations that have no true believers?
Here's what I see. Dis-unity. One group believes one thing (which may be right and may be wrong.) Another group believes another thing (which contrasts what the first group believes.) One group is believing a lie. And perhaps, many falsehoods. Jesus said that God's word was truth. True Christians should believe the truth, shouldn't they? They should be united in purpose and thought, shouldn't they? They should be “one” as Jesus said his followers would be, shouldn't they?English scholar John Selden, 300 years ago said: “If the matter were well examined, you would scarce find three [persons] anywhere of the same religion in all points.”
I found was actually a little suprised that after “examined” you and your other moderator do not agree on all points. I find this odd, because I would have thought that someone who you got to moderate this borad, would be someone who agrees with “all points” that you do. But I guess, as this writer said, that is impossible, or nearly anyway.
Jehovah's Witnesses are perhaps the most united group on the planet. Considering the diversity in location and language and culture, this is almost a miracle.david
T8, you say:
Quote People, beware of those who try to lure you into their denomination or cult.
I say, beware of people who are not fulfilling this scripture:MATTHEW 24:14
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”If one person comes to you with the good news of the kingdom and they belong to a group that is proclaiming this good news in “all the nations” then you should definitely ask yourself some questions.
If someone isn't a part of a group that is fulfilling this scripture, then they have some serious thinking to do. Jesus knew what his followers would be doing in the last days and he told us.
T8, you say:
“But the Church didn't change it's name to the Jehovah Witnesses a hundred or couple of hundred years ago.”First, the early Christians…..well, all the way back to Abel–These ones were (Heb 11) and could definitley be termed witnesses for God, or Jehovah. Jesus was the faithful witness, or the faithful and true witness spoken of in Revelation. He was a witness for Jehovah his Father, whose name he made known, as the scripture says. We are to follow Jesus and be witnesses of Jehovah. And, of course, we are also witnesses for Jesus.
1) There was one group of Christians, followers of Jesus who knew and taught and believed the truth.
2) There was an apostasy very early on, as Jesus and others fortold.In an illustration about wheat and weeds, Jesus foretold that true religion would be virtually obscured for a time. (Mat 13:24-30, 36-43)
Very soon after the death of Jesus’ apostles a perverted, counterfeit Christianity appeared on the world stage. It was dominated by what the Bible calls “the lawless one”—a corrupt clergy class that was itself steeped in “every unrighteous deception.” (2 Thessalonians 2:6-10) Jesus foretold that this situation would change “in the conclusion of the system of things.” (Mat 13:39) It would have to change, for Jesus foretold that during the “conclusion of the system of things” a global preaching work would be done by his followers. (Mat 24:3, 24)
Both Isaiah’s and Micah’s prophecies foretell a re-gathering of true worshipers “in the final part of the days.” Isaiah says: “It must occur in the final part of the days that the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it all the nations must stream. And many peoples will certainly go and say: ‘Come, you people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.’”
(Isaiah 2:2,3; Micah 4:1-3) A clear-eyed look at the facts shows that Isaiah’s prophecy is being fulfilled in our time. (Compare Mat 24:14)Jesus foretold for our day this work:
“This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”–Mat. 24:14Jesus fortold this for the “conclusion of the system of things,” our time, the last days of this world. In the conclusion of this world, or the final part of the days, as Isaiah said, the mountain of the house of Jehovah is being firmly established. People are saying: Come. The re-gathering is taking place. There is only one group on the planet who is declaring this message in all the earth, and, even more, every member of this group takes part in this. Astounding!
T8 further says:
“People, beware of those who try to lure you into their denomination or cult.”People, beware of those who use “scare tactics” or the “appeal to fear.” This a fallacy in thinking. The use of the word “cult” (which JW's are definitely not) is designed to scare people.
People, also beware of those who try to turn you away from God's people using false reasoning. By their fruits, you will recognize those men.MATTHEW 7:16-20
“By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men].”PROCLAIMING THE GOOD NEWS–EVERYWHERE.
Jesus foretold for our day this work: “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”–Mat. 24:14
He also instructed his followers: “Go . . . and make disciples of people of all the nations.”—Mat. 28:19
The message that the Witnesses proclaim involves the lives of people. (Zeph 2:2,3) Therefore they actively “search out” those who wish to hear of this good news, by going to the homes of people, in accordance with Jesus words: “As you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.’ . . . .“Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. When you are entering into the house, greet the household; and if the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. Wherever anyone does not take you in or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city shake the dust off your feet.”–Mat. 10:7,11-14
The apostle Paul said regarding his ministry: : “I did not hold back from telling you any of the things that were profitable nor from teaching you publicly and from house to house.—Acts 20:20, 21
Notice how Christians of that time reached people with the good news: “And every day in the temple and from house to house* they continued without letup teaching and declaring the good news about the Christ, Jesus.”--Acts 5:42
(*Lit., “according to house.” Gr., kat’ oíkon. Here ka·tá is used with the accusative sing. in the distributive sense. R. C. H. Lenski, in his work The Interpretation of The Acts of the Apostles, Minneapolis (1961), made the following comment on Ac 5:42: “Never for a moment did the apostles cease their blessed work. ‘Every day’ they continued, and this openly ‘in the Temple’ where the Sanhedrin and the Temple police could see and hear them, and, of course, also κατ’ οικον, which is distributive, ‘from house to house,’ and not merely adverbial, ‘at home.’ ”)Jesus “designated seventy others and sent them forth by twos in advance of him into every city and place to which he himself was going to come.” These were not just to preach in public places but were also to contact people at their homes. Jesus instructed them: “Wherever you enter into a house say first, ‘May this house have peace.’”—Lu 10:1-7.
Their calls are motivated by love—first for God, also for their neighbor.
A conference of religious leaders in Spain noted this: “Perhaps [the churches] are excessively neglectful about that which precisely constitutes the greatest preoccupation of the Witnesses—the home visit, which comes within the apostolic methodology of the primitive church. While the churches, on not a few occasions, limit themselves to constructing their temples, ringing their bells to attract the people and to preaching inside their places of worship, [the Witnesses] follow the apostolic tactic of going from house to house and of taking advantage of every occasion to witness.”—El Catolicismo, Bogotá, Colombia, September 14, 1975, p. 14.
Of course, we also do “informal witnessing” or “street witnessing” or “telephone witnessing” or letter writing, or whatever may work. But the method set out by Jesus works best.The idea of ringing church bells or starting a website and hoping people will come isn't exactly “searching out” people of all the nations. We have to remember that a billion people don't have enough to eat and 450 million are literally almost starving. They don't have computers, or the net. But most of them do have doors.
“knock knock.”
“Who's there?”
(mat 24:14)
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