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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 20 2006,04:04) Quote Hi W,
The Son emptied himself and partook of flesh to be just as we are.
Scripture does not call him a deity.
He is a vessel for God.
It says that fullness of deity was not AS HIM but IN HIM.Col 2.9
” 9For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form”Col 1.19
“19For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,”Do you think he did not empty himself but came in his own powers??
Hi Nick
So by your statement above do I take that to mean that when the Son, The Word, God(lessor God),emptied himself that he ceased to be a lessor God when he was born in human flesh?
So the Word is No longer deity?
Hi W,
The Son of God, the greatest being under God and greater than all the other Elohim, emptied himself of his glory and powers to partake of flesh and be exactly as we are.Deities are worshiped and only God is worshiped in heaven.
Jesus wasn't a deity as shown in heaven was he?
Hi W,
You ask
“So the Word is No longer deity?”My dictionary says about deity
“A god or goddess” from “deus”Does the trinity doctrine teach there are three persons in one God or three Deities?
This is what Athanasius taught
“15. So the Father is God: the Son is God: and the Holy Spirit is God.
16. And yet there are not three Gods; but one God.
17. So the Father is Lord: the Son Lord: and the Holy Spirit Lord.
18. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord.
19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord:
20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say, there are three Gods, or three Lords.”Now you see it
Now you don't.But why follow catholicism anyway if you abhor her practices?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 19 2006,23:14) Quote Hi W,
I await your response to the relevance of the anointing of the Son in the Jordan.If he was God why would he be anointed?
What further powers or authority could anointing give God?
The greater blesses the lesser so how could he be equal with the God who anointed him with His Spirit?Acts 10
“38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.”
Hi Nick.
Was Jesus a man also?
I have a riddle for you Nick.
Luke 1:13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
[14] And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
[15] For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.Based on the birth of John the Baptist. Was Jesus filled with the Holy Ghost from his mothers womb?
WJ,The answer to your so-called riddle is NO. Based on the scripture John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit from his mothers womb. Sorry, but I like to stay with the context, and not twist the Word to conform to a precoceived idea. By the way, did you know that Jesus had to increase in wisdom,stature, and favor with God (Luke 2:52). Doesn't sound like being full to me.
Quote WJ, The answer to your so-called riddle is NO. Based on the scripture John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit from his mothers womb. Sorry, but I like to stay with the context, and not twist the Word to conform to a precoceived idea. By the way, did you know that Jesus had to increase in wisdom,stature, and favor with God (Luke 2:52). Doesn't sound like being full to me.
Sultan!
The question wasnt to you my friend, but since you are ask.
So by your answer are you saying that John the baptist was Greater than Jesus?
By the way I dont see in the scriptures John the baptist calling God is Father!
Lk 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
[41] Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover.
[42] And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.
[43] And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it.
[44] But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day's journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance.
[45] And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him.
[46] And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.
[47] And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.
[48] And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
[49] And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?Also there is an interesting comparison here…
John the baptist-
Lk 1:80 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his shewing unto Israel.Jesus-
Lk 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.Hi W,
You say
“Was Jesus a man also?I have a riddle for you Nick.
Luke 1:13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
[14] And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
[15] For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.Based on the birth of John the Baptist. Was Jesus filled with the Holy Ghost from his mothers womb?”
Jesus was a man like us so we can follow him.
Acts 2
” 22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: “It is not said of him that he was filled with the Spirit from his mother's womb so we should not make presumptions. It is not written. It is only said he was filled with the Spirit of God after the Jordan.
Lk 4
“1And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness.”Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 20 2006,10:19) Quote WJ, The answer to your so-called riddle is NO. Based on the scripture John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit from his mothers womb. Sorry, but I like to stay with the context, and not twist the Word to conform to a precoceived idea. By the way, did you know that Jesus had to increase in wisdom,stature, and favor with God (Luke 2:52). Doesn't sound like being full to me.
Sultan!
The question wasnt to you my friend, but since you are ask.
So by your answer are you saying that John the baptist was Greater than Jesus?
By the way I dont see in the scriptures John the baptist calling God is Father!
Lk 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
[41] Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover.
[42] And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.
[43] And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it.
[44] But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day's journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance.
[45] And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him.
[46] And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.
[47] And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.
[48] And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
[49] And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?Also there is an interesting comparison here…
John the baptist-
Lk 1:80 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his shewing unto Israel.Jesus-
Lk 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
WJ,What did Jesus say,”I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.” (Matt.11:11). Now we know Jesus is not least in the kingdom of Heaven, but you have to admit this scripture does answer your question.
Quote WJ, What did Jesus say,”I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.” (Matt.11:11). Now we know Jesus is not least in the kingdom of Heaven, but you have to admit this scripture does answer your question.
LOL Sultan and Adam Pastor!
Since you believe that John the Baptist was greater than Jesus, then do you accept the words of John the Baptist as being true?
Matt 3: 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Mk 1: 6 And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey;
[7] And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.
[8] I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.Lk 3: 15] And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not;
[16] John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:So if Jesus words are true and Johns words are true, then it would leave one conclusion….Was Jesus born of woman?
Anyone care to respond!
Hi W,
John was the last prophet under the OT Law.,”I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.” (Matt.11:11).
But he was not reborn into the Son of God as he died before Jesus and that way was only opened by the death of Jesus.
Lk 16
” 16The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”He went to the bosom of Abraham as death and hades still had power till then, rather than the mansions of Christ.
He was not robed in the righteousness of Christ as the reborn sons of God are, so, since only Christ perfectly fulfilled the Law he must wait with Moses and all those who died under the Law.
Quote Hi W,
You ask
“So the Word is No longer deity?”My dictionary says about deity
“A god or goddess” from “deus”Does the trinity doctrine teach there are three persons in one God or three Deities?
This is what Athanasius taught
“15. So the Father is God: the Son is God: and the Holy Spirit is God.
16. And yet there are not three Gods; but one God.
17. So the Father is Lord: the Son Lord: and the Holy Spirit Lord.
18. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord.
19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord:
20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say, there are three Gods, or three Lords.”Now you see it
Now you don't.But why follow catholicism anyway if you abhor her practices?
Hi Nick
Seems more scriptural to me!
Why Should I believe there are two Gods one greater and one lessor and a Holy Spirit that is of God that is not a person, but is a force or power or something.
Trintarians say there are three persons in *one* God. Father-Son-Holy Spirit.
Polytheist say that there are two Gods. The greater one is called Father, the lessor one the Son is called Lord and master and those two Gods have a Holy Spirit that is an amazing force or power
Of those two definitions I choose the first.
Mk 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Ex 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that is in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;Mt 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and **Him Only** shalt thou serve.
Hi W,
There is indeed One God.
He sent His beloved Son not so that the Son would be worshiped, but that he would bring men into fellowship with Himself and His son through the Son, and that they would be one in His own Spirit for eternity, just as the Son is.Quote Hi W,
There is indeed One God.
He sent His beloved Son not so that the Son would be worshiped, but that he would bring men into fellowship with Himself and His son through the Son, and that they would be one in His own Spirit for eternity, just as the Son is.Nick
Just as his Son? I dont think that all the God head will dwell in us Bodily.:)
Hi w,
We follow Jesus .
What happened to him can happen to us except that none of are complete in the gifts and graces of the Spirit. That is because it is the will of God that we form Christ's body on earth that serves and is led by the head, in whom was the fullness of deity. We need Christ and we need each other and that is the plan of God.1Cor 12
“4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14For the body is not one member, but many.
15If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.
25That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.”
But scripture does also say;
Eph 3.19
” 19And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.”Each of us should be able to eventually say with Paul
“It is no longer I that liveth but Christ that liveth in me”Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 22 2006,15:22) Quote Hi W,
You ask
“So the Word is No longer deity?”My dictionary says about deity
“A god or goddess” from “deus”Does the trinity doctrine teach there are three persons in one God or three Deities?
This is what Athanasius taught
“15. So the Father is God: the Son is God: and the Holy Spirit is God.
16. And yet there are not three Gods; but one God.
17. So the Father is Lord: the Son Lord: and the Holy Spirit Lord.
18. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord.
19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord:
20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say, there are three Gods, or three Lords.”Now you see it
Now you don't.But why follow catholicism anyway if you abhor her practices?
Hi Nick
Seems more scriptural to me!
Why Should I believe there are two Gods one greater and one lessor and a Holy Spirit that is of God that is not a person, but is a force or power or something.
Trintarians say there are three persons in *one* God. Father-Son-Holy Spirit.
Polytheist say that there are two Gods. The greater one is called Father, the lessor one the Son is called Lord and master and those two Gods have a Holy Spirit that is an amazing force or power
Of those two definitions I choose the first.
Mk 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Ex 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that is in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;Mt 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and **Him Only** shalt thou serve.
Hi W,
Your gods are that which you worship.For some it is foods
Phil 3
“Philippians 3:19
whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things.”We follow Jesus and worship the God of Jesus, the Father.
Jn 20
“17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. “Have you vere walked past a modern church with a sign outside saying
“Come and worship Jesus here”
and felt just a little uncomfortable about where things are heading?Quote We follow Jesus and worship the God of Jesus, the Father. Either way NH, Follow, serve, bow down to, pray to.
This kind of practice was forbidden toward any Image or deity or God besides YWYH!
Exd 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;
Exd 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name [is] Jealous, [is] a jealous God:You say:
Quote Have you vere walked past a modern church with a sign outside saying
“Come and worship Jesus here”
and felt just a little uncomfortable about where things are heading?Not really Nick because I know that their may be many God fearing children of God there.
No I dont have a denomination, but I dont kid myself that I have all truth and those in denominations shall all be condemed if they dont leave and accept my truth!
God knows the hearts f every man! It would do us good to take the Apostle Pauls position sometime!
II Tim 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient,25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 23 2006,01:40) Quote We follow Jesus and worship the God of Jesus, the Father. Either way NH, Follow, serve, bow down to, pray to.
This kind of practice was forbidden toward any Image or deity or God besides YWYH!
Exd 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;
Exd 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name [is] Jealous, [is] a jealous God:You say:
Quote Have you vere walked past a modern church with a sign outside saying
“Come and worship Jesus here”
and felt just a little uncomfortable about where things are heading?Not really Nick because I know that their may be many God fearing children of God there.
No I dont have a denomination, but I dont kid myself that I have all truth and those in denominations shall all be condemed if they dont leave and accept my truth!
God knows the hearts f every man! It would do us good to take the Apostle Pauls position sometime!
II Tim 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient,25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
Hi W,
It is us that says you should worship God.
Why do you tell us to worship Jesus as well and then accuse us?Hi w,
You say
“Not really Nick because I know that their may be many God fearing children of God there”There are meny sincere but deceived people who do not know the way and are following blind men in the hope they are following the Way.
The Jewish people broke Paul's heart.
He grieved for them and their stubborn adherence to ignorance.Rom 9
” 1I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,2That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:”
Rom 10
“1Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.”
Quote Hi w,
You say
“Not really Nick because I know that their may be many God fearing children of God there”There are meny sincere but deceived people who do not know the way and are following blind men in the hope they are following the Way.
The Jewish people broke Paul's heart.
He grieved for them and their stubborn adherence to ignorance.Rom 9
” 1I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,2That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:”
Rom 10
“1Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.”
NH
Are you a Father to many churchs or are you an Apostle or have you been caught up to the third heaven?
Didnt think so! So why do you think that you can judge mens hearts based on a doctrinal difference.
Lighten Up Bro!
Hi W,
How successful would Paul have been if he had had to preach a trinity God? Especially the more modern variants where there is an economic and is it an ontological trinity?Fortunately it was not the gospel he was given and come to think of it it is not the one we should preach either. Life is so much simpler without the burden of trying to sell it's innate confusion when you are trying to bring people back to the loving arms of God.
All we have to do is what Paul did. Preach faith in the Son of God and baptise men in the name of the one who is the mediator between men and God. He left the philosophy to the greeks and let the dead bury the dead.
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