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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 10 2006,00:40) Quote So having identified that these verses speak of the Son of God we have no right to derive from that fact that the Son of God must be his own father as well surely? The Father and the Son are One! God in the Flesh!
Hi W,
So God came in the flesh?
Can you help us with these scripture then?
1Jn 4
” 2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.”
2Jn
” 7For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.8Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.”
And you say Jesus is a part of God
Acts 10
” 38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.”So a part of God
anointed another part of God
with the third part of God and God was with him??
Seems funny to me.Quote Hi W,
It is not us who calls Jesus another deity.
If you have found an apparent contradiction then how are you going to resolve it without adding speculation to scripture? Such popular speculations include the theory that Jesus is not the Son of God but God Himself but such additions are anathema.
Human logic is little value in finding the truth and irrelevant compared with sacred scripture.Hopeless!
Quote Hi WJ, How do you explain that:
Aaron and Joshua called Moses “Lord”
Rebecca called the Servant of Abraham “Lord.”
Jacob many times called Esau “Lord.”
Sarah certainly called Abraham “Lord.”
Joseph was called “Lord” by his brothers… and that's just in Genesis.Num 11:28 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, [one] of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them
Num 11:29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets, [and] that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!
• Gen 42:6 And Joseph [was] the governor over the land, [and] he [it was] that sold to all the people of the land: and Joseph's brethren came, and BOWED DOWN themselves before him [with] their faces to the earth.
• 1Sa 20:41 [And] as soon as the lad was gone, David arose out of [a place] toward the south, and FELL ON HIS FACE to the ground, and BOWED HIMSELF three times: and they kissed one another, and wept one with another, until David exceeded
• 1Sa 24:8 David also arose afterward, and went out of the cave, and cried after Saul, saying, My lord the king. And when Saul looked behind him, David stooped with his face to the earth, and BOWED himself.
• 1Ki 1:23 And they told the king, saying, Behold Nathan the prophet. And when he was come in before the king, he bowed himself before the king with his face to the ground.
• 1Ki 1:47 And moreover the king's servants came to bless our lord king David, saying, God make the name of Solomon better than thy name, and make his throne greater than thy throne. And the king bowed himself upon the bed.Were all these people violating scripture or giving honor to whom honor is due?
I can call Jesus Lord and not be found to break scripture because I worship the God and Father of our Lord Jesus who commands I bow the knee to his son whom he has made Lord over all his works.
The Trinity on the other hand violates the scriptures you quote because they ADD to God and have another equal to and beside him. Jesus being my Lord to the glory of the Father and my bowing my knee to him as the son of God, does not violate scripture because I recognize his Father only as the Most High God.
Hey Cubes!
First of all. Where do you see the Father or Jehovah YWYH commanding Angels to worship Moses, or Aaron or David or any of the Prophets or Kings.
Secondly, Did Moses come from God? Did any of the prophets or priest or kings come from God or was in the bosom of the Father?
Thirdly, were they there when all things were created by Him and for him?
We have a new covenant by which Agency as it was practiced in the Old does not apply!
A New and a Living way!
Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
[2] For then would they not have ceased to be offered? Because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
[3] But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
[4] For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
[6] In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
[7] Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.We no longer do we need an agent as Moses and all those under the law who had to approach God thru them! We are born sons Because God came in the Flesh,. And now we approach him through the veil of his flesh having our conscience sprinkled by the blood of the Lamb Jesus the Word made Flesh so that we can com BOLDLY into the throne room of Grace!
Jesus the word made flesh now has all power and All of the fullness of the Godhead dwells in him!Moses or Aaron or any of the Old Testament Kings, Priest or Prophets, could not make that claim!
You Say”
The Trinity on the other hand violates the scriptures you quote because they ADD to God and have another equal to and beside him. Jesus being my Lord to the glory of the Father and my bowing my knee to him as the son of God, does not violate scripture because I recognize his”Cubes, we don’t add to God, we simply say that the Logos was with God and the Logos was God!
You take away from the scriptures. And also add by saying God is a Spirit who has a Spirit who has no personality, even though the Spirit thinks, speaks, hears, feels and sees. The Spirit can be grieved, quenched, blasphemed and lied to.
But to fit your foolish Arius views of the Godhead. You deny the scriptures referring to the Holy Spirit as *He* saying that it is simply Jesus making an inference to the Spirit!
Lies! We accept the fact that it is a mystery in which the human intellect cannot fully understand until we see him as he is!
But we don’t deny any of the scriptures or wrest them as you do!
The Father God and the Logos(God) in Jesus and the Holy Spirit From the Father through Jesus are ONE!
God is in Christ reconciling the world unto himself!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 10 2006,01:12) Quote Hi W,
It is not us who calls Jesus another deity.
If you have found an apparent contradiction then how are you going to resolve it without adding speculation to scripture? Such popular speculations include the theory that Jesus is not the Son of God but God Himself but such additions are anathema.
Human logic is little value in finding the truth and irrelevant compared with sacred scripture.Hopeless!
Hi W,
Indeed it is hopeless to go beyond the bible teachings to support a human fabrication such as trinity. God never taught us about it so we should not try to help Him by creating our own constructs about Him. He would not want us to do that.Quote Hi W,
If your God has three parts which part was the father of Jesus?[matt 1.20]The Holy Ghost!
Exactly my point Nick!
The Holy Ghost and God are the Same!
Later!
Hi w,
So the Spirit of God is a person in God? Why would this person be the father and not the Father?Hi W,
Why was Jesus filled with the Holy Spirit?LK 4
” 1And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,”Why did God need to be filled with God?
Hi w,
You quote
“God is in Christ reconciling the world unto himself!”
I agree.
So was he the vessel or the contents or both?Hi W,
You say,
“You take away from the scriptures. And also add by saying God is a Spirit who has a Spirit who has no personality, even though the Spirit thinks, speaks, hears, feels and sees. The Spirit can be grieved, quenched, blasphemed and lied to.”of course, because, almost as you say
“The Holy Ghost and God are the Same!”
The Spirit is of God
2Cor 3
” 17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. '
But there is a difference for the Son.Lk 12
“10And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.”So the Son is less than God Himself.
That should not surprise us as he said so.
Jn 14
“You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.”
God was IN Christ reconciling the world to Himself.
Hi W,
You say
“Jesus the word made flesh now has all power and All of the fullness of the Godhead dwells in him!”
I agree.
But did he not empty himself to become like us in every way but sin?
So you are not suggesting he worked in his own divine powers are you?
Was he not anointed by God in His spirit and in power and the began his ministry after that happened at the Jordan?Acts 10
” 38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.”Peace and favour
Heb 1.6 and when again He may bring in the first-born to the world, He saith, `And let them bow before him–all messengers of God;'
Would these be the same messengers (or what some call angels) that ministered to him at the Mount
Mar 1:13 and he was there in the wilderness forty days, being tempted by the Adversary, and he was with the beasts, and the messengers were ministering to him.
And if anyone would care to bring scriptures forth, where Christ was worshipped while on the earth by HIS brothers/sisters.
Is it so hard to comprehend that if the trinity doctrine was denied that most who have been marked w/ a “D” on the hand, “D” meaning denomination of course, would be wondering being tossed to and fro, in the realization that they have been deceived.
Trinitarian creed for some reason always makes me think of
Rom 1.25
who did change the truth of God into a falsehood, and did honour and serve the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed to the ages. Amen.Hi olive,
yes and angel means messenger, but not all messengers are angels.The traditional trinity doctrine holds it's adherents very tightly and I can only think of two or three of the perhaps thousands who have come here in the past few years who have admitted to changing their minds when shown scriptural evidence against it.
1 John 4:4
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.“1 John 5:9
If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.”Only the Spirit can show men truth.
hey Nick, peace and favour
you state:
Only the Spirit can show men truth.AMEM
Joh 4:23 but, there cometh an hour, and it now is, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father also doth seek such to worship him;
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping Him, in spirit and truth it doth behove to worshipQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 10 2006,06:16) Quote Hi WJ, How do you explain that:
Aaron and Joshua called Moses “Lord”
Rebecca called the Servant of Abraham “Lord.”
Jacob many times called Esau “Lord.”
Sarah certainly called Abraham “Lord.”
Joseph was called “Lord” by his brothers… and that's just in Genesis.Num 11:28 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, [one] of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them
Num 11:29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets, [and] that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!
• Gen 42:6 And Joseph [was] the governor over the land, [and] he [it was] that sold to all the people of the land: and Joseph's brethren came, and BOWED DOWN themselves before him [with] their faces to the earth.
• 1Sa 20:41 [And] as soon as the lad was gone, David arose out of [a place] toward the south, and FELL ON HIS FACE to the ground, and BOWED HIMSELF three times: and they kissed one another, and wept one with another, until David exceeded
• 1Sa 24:8 David also arose afterward, and went out of the cave, and cried after Saul, saying, My lord the king. And when Saul looked behind him, David stooped with his face to the earth, and BOWED himself.
• 1Ki 1:23 And they told the king, saying, Behold Nathan the prophet. And when he was come in before the king, he bowed himself before the king with his face to the ground.
• 1Ki 1:47 And moreover the king's servants came to bless our lord king David, saying, God make the name of Solomon better than thy name, and make his throne greater than thy throne. And the king bowed himself upon the bed.Were all these people violating scripture or giving honor to whom honor is due?
I can call Jesus Lord and not be found to break scripture because I worship the God and Father of our Lord Jesus who commands I bow the knee to his son whom he has made Lord over all his works.
The Trinity on the other hand violates the scriptures you quote because they ADD to God and have another equal to and beside him. Jesus being my Lord to the glory of the Father and my bowing my knee to him as the son of God, does not violate scripture because I recognize his Father only as the Most High God.
Hey Cubes!
First of all. Where do you see the Father or Jehovah YWYH commanding Angels to worship Moses, or Aaron or David or any of the Prophets or Kings.
Secondly, Did Moses come from God? Did any of the prophets or priest or kings come from God or was in the bosom of the Father?
Thirdly, were they there when all things were created by Him and for him?
We have a new covenant by which Agency as it was practiced in the Old does not apply!
A New and a Living way!
Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
[2] For then would they not have ceased to be offered? Because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
[3] But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
[4] For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
[6] In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
[7] Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.We no longer do we need an agent as Moses and all those under the law who had to approach God thru them! We are born sons Because God came in the Flesh,. And now we approach him through the veil of his flesh having our conscience sprinkled by the blood of the Lamb Jesus the Word made Flesh so that we can com BOLDLY into the throne room of Grace!
Jesus the word made flesh now has all power and All of the fullness of the Godhead dwells in him!Moses or Aaron or any of the Old Testament Kings, Priest or Prophets, could not make that claim!
You Say”
The Trinity on the other hand violates the scriptures you quote because they ADD to God and have another equal to and beside him. Jesus being my Lord to the glory of the Father and my bowing my knee to him as the son of God, does not violate scripture because I recognize his”Cubes, we don’t add to God, we simply say that the Logos was with God and the Logos was God!
You take away from the scriptures. And also add by saying God is a Spirit who has a Spirit who has no personality, even though the Spirit thinks, speaks, hears, feels and sees. The Spirit can be grieved, quenched, blasphemed and lied to.
But to fit your foolish Arius views of the Godhead. You deny the scriptures referring to the Holy Spirit as *He* saying that it is simply Jesus making an inference to the Spirit!
Lies! We accept the fact that it is a mystery in which the human intellect cannot fully understand until we see him as he is!
But we don’t deny any of the scriptures or wrest them as you do!
The Father God and the Logos(God) in Jesus and the Holy Spirit From the Father through Jesus are ONE!
God is in Christ reconciling the world unto himself!
Hi WJ,Thanks for your response. I can't spare the time to return the favor right now. I look forward to it in the next few days, hopefully.
Have a good weekend.
Welcome Olive.
You said:
Quote Trinitarian creed for some reason always makes me think of Rom 1.25
who did change the truth of God into a falsehood, and did honour and serve the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed to the ages. Amen.I agree.
Many are bent on changing the appointed things of God.
Quote Heb 1.6 and when again He may bring in the first-born to the world, He saith, `And let them bow before him–all messengers of God;' Would these be the same messengers (or what some call angels) that ministered to him at the Mount
Mar 1:13 and he was there in the wilderness forty days, being tempted by the Adversary, and he was with the beasts, and the messengers were ministering to him.
And if anyone would care to bring scriptures forth, where Christ was worshipped while on the earth by HIS brothers/sisters.
Is it so hard to comprehend that if the trinity doctrine was denied that most who have been marked w/ a “D” on the hand, “D” meaning denomination of course, would be wondering being tossed to and fro, in the realization that they have been deceived.
Trinitarian creed for some reason always makes me think of
Rom 1.25
who did change the truth of God into a falsehood, and did honour and serve the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed to the ages. Amen.Hello Olive!
You say
“And if anyone would care to bring scriptures forth, where Christ was worshipped while on the earth by HIS brothers/sisters. “I’m sure if they knew who he was they would have!
It hadn’t been revealed by the Father yet!Matt 28: 16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
[17] And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.Jn 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
[36] He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
[37] And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
[38] And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.Jn 20:28 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
You say” Is it so hard to comprehend that if the trinity doctrine was denied that most who have been marked w/ a “D” on the hand, “D” meaning denomination of course, would be wondering being tossed to and fro, in the realization that they have been deceived. “
I don’t belong to a denomination my friend! But I am a dedicated student of the word!
Acts 17:11 “These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”You Say
“Trinitarian creed for some reason always makes me think ofRom 1.25
who did change the truth of God into a falsehood, and did honour and serve the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed to the ages. Amen. “If you accept the whole council of God, all of the scriptures as they are written, then you will see that the 3 in 1 best describes the Godhead!
So if I understand your interpretation of Rom 1:25 That would mean that we serve Jesus and the Holy Spirit more than God the Father?
Umm! Don’t think that is Possible!
Blessings
Quote Hi w,
So the Spirit of God is a person in God? Why would this person be the father and not the Father?Nick
The Spirit of God is God! Is Jesus in God! Is he a person?
Quote Hi w,
You quote
“God is in Christ reconciling the world unto himself!”
I agree.
So was he the vessel or the contents or both?How about this nick he was the vessel and the contents!
The Word(God) was made Flesh and given the name Jesus the man who was baptised to fulfill all righteousness!
The question follows — Was Jesus God? Absolutely! But did you know that the God in Jesus was the Father? What did He say? “Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, HE doeth the works” (Jn. 14:10). Can you imagine GOD saying, “I can of mine own self do nothing?” Yet Jesus confessed that He, of Himself, could do nothing! Only the Father in Him could speak and do the works! So what I am saying is, THE GOD THAT WAS IN JESUS WAS THE FATHER! “Great is the mystery of godliness: GOD was manifest in the flesh” (I Tim. 3:16). Not God the Son manifest in flesh. GOD was manifest in the flesh!
The Bible teaches that GOD WAS IN CHRIST. The body, the outward human form, was Jesus, the Son of God. In Him dwelt and dwells all the fullness of the Godhead, bodily (Col. 2:9). Nothing can be plainer than that! Mystery, yes. But actual truth — it can’t be plainer!Do you live in a vessel is your vessel not one with you?
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