How could Christ have the possibility of failure?

[Is 1:18]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 09 2006,05:43)

Hi W, And you will see in vrs 2 that the kings and the rulers take counsel together against the Lord and his anointed! Which precedes the Lord saying “Thou art my Son this day have I begotten thee”. Acts 13:33 33that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, 'YOU ARE MY SON; TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU.' Romans 1:4 4who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord, II Sam 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.[13] He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. [14] I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: Luke 1:31-35 35The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God. Looks like the Apostles and the Prophets disagree with you Nick.

sscott, WJ is right, the NT writers did not understand Psa 2:7 as a reference to a pre-incarnation begettal. It's plain. This begettal is not once mentioned (or even alluded to) in scripture. The logos is eternal.

Quote

How does this verse that Nick posted fit with the Trinity doctrine?

Hebrews 1:6
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.”

Firstbegotten
G4416
prōtotokos

From G4413 and the alternate of G5088; first born (usually as noun, literally or figuratively): – firstbegotten (-born).

If you study the OT and NT applications of “first born”, it soon become obvious that the term has meaning outside of reproduction. For example, Ps 89.27 speaking of King David, the YOUNGEST or LAST BORN of Jesse says God will make him his firstborn:

Psalms 89:27
“I also shall make him My firstborn, The highest of the kings of the earth.”

God calls Israel his firstborn:

Exodus 4:22
“Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, “Israel is My son, My firstborn.”

All Christians are called God’s firstborn:

Hebrews 12:23
”to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

The term “first born” or “firstbegotten” is frequently used to signify priority in importance or rank, preeminance. In Jewish thinking, the firstborn was the ranking son who had received the right of inheritance from his father, whether he was firstborn or not. For example, Jacob elevated his son Joseph to firstborn, evidenced by the “coat of many colors,” even though he was actually the eleventh son, and Ephraim, the younger son of Joseph, was treated as firstborn, not Manasseh (Gen. 48:13-20).

Its also notable that Christ is designated the “firstborn from the dead” in Colossians 1:18 and Revelation 1:5. What could this possibly mean if prōtotokos = first progeny?? Romans 8:29 states that “Our conformity to the image of Christ is so He might be the “firstborn among many brethren,”” This is an explicit reference to his preeminance in rulership/authority. As “firstborn,” Christ is the rightful heir and the preeminent One among those who have become “brethren” by being made like Him.

Hebrews 1:6 does not teach that Christ was created or supernaturally birthed “in the beginning”, but that He is exalted to the highest status….

Blessings

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 10 2006,00:43)

You still havn't shown me a scripture that shows that Jesus had a beginning!

Show me a scripture that says that Michael the Archangel had a beginning? What about Gabriel?

If Jesus never had a beginning, then we could only believe that if scripture stated that he never had a beginning. We know this to be true of God because it says so.

But most certainly so we know that the Word was with God in the beginning. The beginning is not eternity, because we also know that Satan sinned in the beginning.

John 1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

So the beginning started with the Word who was with God.
God is from everlasting to everlasting. That is why Christ is called “the beginning of the creation of God”. Remember this, that the head of the woman is the man, the head of the man is Christ and the head of Christ is God. This scripture is saying something if you have ears to hear.

Also ask yourself why Jesus is the son of God. It is because he has a Father.

It is ridiculous to believe that 2/3s of the members of an eternal Trinity flipped a coin and said heads I go to earth and will be obedient to you as the son and tails you go. There is no scripture that even hints at such things.

Jesus is the son because he came from the Father. That is why Father and son are used. We know that the Father is teh only true God and that Jesus is the son of that God.

Jesus also became flesh because he was obedient to God, not because he was God. Jesus came in the flesh. God never came in the flesh.

Jesus calls his Father, God and our God. He stated this clearly while he was here among us, and even in heaven too.

If you think that both are God, then you have 2 Gods. If you say that they are not 2 Gods, but one God, then you have a substance that spawns at least 2 personalities. God is the substance and the personalities include the Father and Son. Doesn't that sound crazy and spooky. God is a substance that spawns personalities. Sounds like New Age to me. But whatever it sounds like, it isn't derived from scripture is it?

But God is referred to as 'him' and 'he', and not 'they' or 'we'. God is a person, not a committee, family, or board of directors. God is one and this God begat a son. So if God begat a son, we now have 2. God and the son of God.

It's not that hard to comprehend. It is simple, it is scriptural, and it is even logical, because we even have sons ourselves and we know that they are another and came from us.

Think about how Trinitarians pray. Dear God, thanks Jesus, send the Spirit, God, thanks Father. Look if you are going to believe in the Trinity and pray to the Trinity at least get your language right. You should say Dear Trinity God. I thank you guys. You are all great. You know plural speak. Because you talk to personalities (identities). You don't talk to a substance or nature and the Trinity teaches multiple personalities, in one substance.

When you talk to me are you talking to my flesh/nature/substance, or my personality (mind)?

And so we go around the mulberry bush once again.

[sscott]

Hey worshippingjesus,

I hear what you are saying but this is the verse I was talking about:

6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.”

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 09 2006,07:02)

Quote WorshippingJesus, How does this verse that Nick posted fit with the Trinity doctrine? Hey SScott! Good question! Of course I have challenged them to show me just one scripture where when Jesus is being worshipped, which happens many times where Jesus discouraged it or pointed them to the Father. Why did not Jesus knowing the Commandment “thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and him only shalt thou serve” at least in one instance discourage it. No one can show me anywhere Jesus even hinted at them not to worship him. Every other incident where you see a A man of God or an Angel being worshiped the recipient quickly refuses it and points them to God! They use the following scriptures to say that Jesus taught us How to worship the Father which is true. And surely Jesus the Great Teacher knowing what this word he used called worship means that he would not allow it to be performed on himself or at least he would use every opportunity to point them to the Father. Not so. So it means that he recieved worship unto himself and sinned, or he knew who he was, the Logos by whom God created all things, the Logos God made flesh! John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. [24] God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. But the Gr word for worship is:proskuneo {pros-koo-neh'-o} which means 1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence 2) among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence 3) in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication Again when you see this kind of act toward men or angels it is discouraged. But not so with Jesus. Jesus knew what this word meant and the writer John knew what it meant so did the other Apostles! Look up how many times the same word is used! Matt 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean. Matt 9:18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live. Matt 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God. Mk 5:6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him, Luke 24:52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy: Jn 9:38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him. And on and on… and of course Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him You will find that those who have theology based in Arianism cannot accept the worship Of Jesus because that would completly destroy their base! The same in regards to the Holy Spirit not being a person but a power or an agent of God, Agency is a word you may hear. Their belief is close to the JWs in this manor, though they seem to give the Spirit a little more credit by being more than just the power of God! Hope this helps!

Hi sscott,
Trinitarians confuse teaching with observed behaviours and make them equivalent. The teacher never told us to worship himself and neither did the prophets or apostles. Indeed we bow or prostate ourselves humbly before our Lord Jesus. If we think that is worship, then we do not understand how to worship our God.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

Show me a scripture that says that Michael the Archangel had a beginning? What about Gabriel? If Jesus never had a beginning, then we could only believe that if scripture stated that he never had a beginning. We know this to be true of God because it says so. But most certainly so we know that the Word was with God in the beginning. The beginning is not eternity, because we also know that Satan sinned in the beginning. John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. So the beginning started with the Word who was with God. God is from everlasting to everlasting. That is why Christ is called “the beginning of the creation of God”. Remember this, that the head of the woman is the man, the head of the man is Christ and the head of Christ is God. This scripture is saying something if you have ears to hear. Also ask yourself why Jesus is the son of God. It is because he has a Father. It is ridiculous to believe that 2/3s of the members of an eternal Trinity flipped a coin and said heads I go to earth and will be obedient to you as the son and tails you go. There is no scripture that even hints at such things. Jesus is the son because he came from the Father. That is why Father and son are used. We know that the Father is teh only true God and that Jesus is the son of that God. Jesus also became flesh because he was obedient to God, not because he was God. Jesus came in the flesh. God never came in the flesh. Jesus calls his Father, God and our God. He stated this clearly while he was here among us, and even in heaven too. If you think that both are God, then you have 2 Gods. If you say that they are not 2 Gods, but one God, then you have a substance that spawns at least 2 personalities. God is the substance and the personalities include the Father and Son. Doesn't that sound crazy and spooky. God is a substance that spawns personalities. Sounds like New Age to me. But whatever it sounds like, it isn't derived from scripture is it? But God is referred to as 'him' and 'he', and not 'they' or 'we'. God is a person, not a committee, family, or board of directors. God is one and this God begat a son. So if God begat a son, we now have 2. God and the son of God. It's not that hard to comprehend. It is simple, it is scriptural, and it is even logical, because we even have sons ourselves and we know that they are another and came from us. Think about how Trinitarians pray. Dear God, thanks Jesus, send the Spirit, God, thanks Father. Look if you are going to believe in the Trinity and pray to the Trinity at least get your language right. You should say Dear Trinity God. I thank you guys. You are all great. You know plural speak. Because you talk to personalities (identities). You don't talk to a substance or nature and the Trinity teaches multiple personalities, in one substance. When you talk to me are you talking to my flesh/nature/substance, or my personality (mind)? And so we go around the mulberry bush once again.

Hey t8

Why do you guys close your eyes to the truth?

You say “Show me a scripture that says that Michael the Archangel had a beginning? What about Gabriel? If Jesus never had a beginning, then we could only believe that if scripture stated that he never had a beginning. We know this to be true of God because it says so.
But most certainly so we know that the Word was with God in the beginning. The beginning is not eternity, because we also know that Satan sinned in the beginning.”

Heres your answer:

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Eph 3;9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, **who created all things by Jesus Christ**:

Col 1: 16 For by him were **all things created**, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: **all things were created by him**, and for him:

Unless you have some special revelation that I’m not aware of Michael, Gabriel and all the angels had a beginning. **All things** were created by him and for him and without him was not **anything**  made that was made and by him **all things consist**!

Did God create him the logos through him the logos?

Foolish speculations of the carnal mind!

You say:
“So the beginning started with the Word who was with God.
God is from everlasting to everlasting. That is why Christ is called “the beginning of the creation of God”. Remember this, that the head of the woman is the man, the head of the man is Christ and the head of Christ is God. This scripture is saying something if you have ears to hear.”

You quote Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Why do you only believe part of this scripture?

Let me see, here is the logic:  

Jesus is only the man the Son so he cant be God there is only One God so it must not mean what it says, “The Word was God” .So it must mean that the Logos is of divine origin, (Having a beginning) and the Logos is a deity but not the true God!

Arianism!!!

So the Father God must want us to bow our knee and to confess this Jesus who is divine  as our Lord (the deity that came from God), and call him Master and serve him!

Idolatry! The Scriptures are Broken if the Word, Jesus (the Word made flesh) is not God in the flesh!

You say:
Also ask yourself why Jesus is the son of God. It is because he has a Father.

It is ridiculous to believe that 2/3s of the members of an eternal Trinity flipped a coin and said heads I go to earth and will be obedient to you as the son and tails you go. There is no scripture that even hints at such things.

Jesus is the son because he came from the Father. That is why Father and son are used. We know that the Father is teh only true God and that Jesus is the son of that God.

Jesus also became flesh because he was obedient to God, not because he was God. Jesus came in the flesh. God never came in the flesh.

Jesus calls his Father, God and our God. He stated this clearly while he was here among us, and even in heaven too.

Jesus the man had a God and a Father. Yes.

**The Word was God** **The Word was made flesh** The Greek for Made is: ginomai {ghin'-om-ahee} which means: to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being

The Logos, God, came into existence in human form, tabernacled among us, the Logos became flesh and dwelt among us.

The natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit for they are foolishness to him!

You say:
“If you think that both are God, then you have 2 Gods. If you say that they are not 2 Gods, but one God, then you have a substance that spawns at least 2 personalities. God is the substance and the personalities include the Father and Son. Doesn't that sound crazy and spooky. God is a substance that spawns personalities. Sounds like New Age to me. But whatever it sounds like, it isn't derived from scripture is it?

But God is referred to as 'him' and 'he', and not 'they' or 'we'. God is a person, not a committee, family, or board of directors. God is one and this God begat a son. So if God begat a son, we now have 2. God and the son of God.

It's not that hard to comprehend. It is simple, it is scriptural, and it is even logical, because we even have sons ourselves and we know that they are another and came from us.
Think about how Trinitarians pray. Dear God, thanks Jesus, send the Spirit, God, thanks Father. Look if you are going to believe in the Trinity and pray to the Trinity at least get your language right. You should say Dear Trinity God. I thank you guys. You are all great. You know plural speak. Because you talk to personalities (identities). You don't talk to a substance or nature and the Trinity teaches multiple personalities, in one substance.

When you talk to me are you talking to my flesh/nature/substance, or my personality (mind)?

And so we go around the mulberry bush once again.”

So I guess by this statement Arians don’t believe that you should pray to Jesus the Saviour.

But of course if you are praying to him and he is not of the Godhead (one God) then you break the commandments.

You cant have it two ways either Jesus is Just a Son of God and you only talk to the Father and then tack his name on the end of the prayer or he is God – One with the Father.

Ehp 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
[5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
[6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

We know in whom we have believed!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

Hi sscott, Trinitarians confuse teaching with observed behaviours and make them equivalent. The teacher never told us to worship himself and neither did the prophets or apostles. Indeed we bow or prostate ourselves humbly before our Lord Jesus. If we think that is worship, then we do not understand how to worship our God.

Lies!

Heb 1:6 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 09 2006,20:56)

Quote Hi sscott, Trinitarians confuse teaching with observed behaviours and make them equivalent. The teacher never told us to worship himself and neither did the prophets or apostles. Indeed we bow or prostate ourselves humbly before our Lord Jesus. If we think that is worship, then we do not understand how to worship our God. Lies! Heb 1:6 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Hi W,
Indeed all the angels of God worship at the feet of the gloriified Son of God and they serve us to who are in him.

Heb 1
” 13But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?”

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

Hi W, Indeed all the angels of God worship at the feet of the gloriified Son of God and they serve us to who are in him. Heb 1 ” 13But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? 14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?”

LIE!

Hey Nick!

Twisting the scripture again I see!

It says “6] And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
[7] And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
[8] But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
[9] Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.”

It dosn't say they worshiped God at his feet!

***And let all the angels of God worship him.***

Serious buisnes to wrest the scriptures!

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
And the angels do worship him as they ought.
He was made less than the angels for a time but prophecy showed they would worship him.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

Hi W, And the angels do worship him as they ought. He was made less than the angels but prophecy showed they would worship him.

If the Angels of God worship anything or anyone other than God then the scriptures are broken.

Plain and simple!

[NickHassan]

Hi w,
So let me see.
God commands the angels to worship Jesus and you claim greater authority??
Where is the scriptural evidence that God commanded angels to never worship the Son of God? Are you not applying rules made for men to angels?

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Trinitarians are so terrified of being labelled polytheists that whenever they see divinity ascribed to a being such as the Word they abandon ship and declare that such a being is part of our God. Out the window goes the proven truth that Jesus is the Son of God and instead it becomes only a label for a personality in God.
But when men and angels are called Elohim that is ignored.
Where is the consistency?

1Cor 8
” 3But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

4As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

5For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him”

We have one God, the God of Jesus, our Lord.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

Hi w, So let me see. God commands the angels to worship Jesus and you claim greater authority?? Where is the scriptural evidence that God commanded angels to never worship the Son of God? Are you not applying rules made for men to angels?

Hey Nick!

Would God violate his own word when he says that you are to Worship God and him ONLY and yet tell the Angels to worship Jesus?

Point being Jesus is God,One with the Father or there is a contradiction in his commandments!

Dah How hard is that to understand my friend!

Pss 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast ***magnified thy word above all thy name***.

God puts priority on his Word above his own name!

[Cubes]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 09 2006,04:03)

Quote Good questions, sscott, and welcome to the board. So given the diagram, I ask Trinitarians once again, how does one appear before himself?  And what need is there for one to appear before himself?  Assuming as Trinitarians claim, that they believe God is One? Hbr 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: And why does one appoint himself a HIGHPRIEST so as to serve himself? •  Hebrews 5:1,4  For EVERY high priest taken from among men is APPOINTED for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins… And no man takes this honor to himself, but he who is called by God, just as Aaron was. •  Hebrews 5:5-6 SO CHRIST ALSO DID NOT glorify himself to BECOME High Priest, but it was He who said to Him: “You are my son, Today I have begotten You.” As He also says in another place: “you are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.” And why does one need a MEDIATOR to mediate between himself and others IF in fact, he intended to negotiate face to face with his opponent etc?   The Trinity makes void Christ as our highpriest and mediator, and asserts that it does not understand who God is, or what a highpriest or mediator is. Hey cubes! You say” So given the diagram, I ask Trinitarians once again, how does one appear before himself?  And what need is there for one to appear before himself?   I thought trinitarions believe in three persons! Not one person talking to them selves! You say” Assuming as Trinitarians claim, that they believe God is One?” Um you say that God is one and yet you call Jesus Lord! Jesus himself forbid this kinda of practice! Luke 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. Ex 20:5 And God spake all these words, saying, [2] I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. [3] Thou shalt have no other gods before me. [4] Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: [5] Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; So based on your belief then God is a liar and or has changed his mind.. He says “thou shalt not bow down thyself to them nor serve them” Why would God the Father Make this declaration of himself and then violate it by sending a man named Jesus who, (you say he is just the Son of God ), and tell you to serve him and bow down to him! Matt 6:24 24] No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. God even commanded the angels to worship him! For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? [6] And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. If we were to take your view point then the scriptures are in contradiction of themselves! You can’t have two Lords or two masters! The Father Son and Holy Spirit are ONE. [5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism, [6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. [7] But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. God is in Christ his Body, Jesus is in God his bosom Glorified as ONE God and Together Sending the Spirit of God! The God that tabernacled above the tents of Israel, who tabernacled in the temple on mount Moriah, now took on Himself a tent of flesh and tabernacled as a man amongst men. But He was the SAME GOD! The Bible teaches that GOD WAS IN CHRIST. The body, the outward human form, was Jesus, the Son of God. In Him dwelt and dwells all the fullness of the Godhead, bodily (Col. 2:9). Nothing can be plainer than that! Mystery, yes. But actual truth — it can’t be plainer!

Hi WJ,  

How do you explain that:
Aaron and Joshua called Moses “Lord”
Rebecca called the Servant of Abraham “Lord.”
Jacob many times called Esau “Lord.”
Sarah certainly called Abraham “Lord.”
Joseph was called “Lord” by his brothers… and that's just in Genesis.  

Num 11:28  And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, [one] of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them
Num 11:29  And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets, [and] that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

Hi, Trinitarians are so terrified of being labelled polytheists that whenever they see divinity ascribed to a being such as the Word they abandon ship and declare that such a being is part of our God. Out the window goes the proven truth that Jesus is the Son of God and instead it becomes only a label for a personality in God. But when men and angels are called Elohim that is ignored. Where is the consistency? 1Cor 8 ” 3But if any man love God, the same is known of him. 4As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. 5For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him” We have one God, the God of Jesus, our Lord.

Nick!

Terrified!  LOL!

I have known my savior God for 32 years! No fear here. I know in whom I have believed!

You say “Trinitarians are so terrified of being labelled polytheists that whenever they see divinity ascribed to a being such as the Word they abandon ship **and declare that such a being is part of our God**.”

Nick I thoght that Jesus was more than just a being and yes hes is a part of our God. So is he not a part of your God?

You say” Out the window goes the proven truth that Jesus is the Son of God and instead it becomes only a label for a personality in God.
But when men and angels are called Elohim that is ignored.
Where is the consistency?

Nick thats what I want to know where is the consistency in accepting the WHOLE council of God! All Scriptures! For if you hold all scriptures in play there is only one conclusion! Father – the Logos made Flesh (Jesus the Son) and the Holy Spirit sent By the Father through the Logos. These three are one. Until you accept this nothing else will seem right! God is One!

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 09 2006,23:15)

Quote Hi w, So let me see. God commands the angels to worship Jesus and you claim greater authority?? Where is the scriptural evidence that God commanded angels to never worship the Son of God? Are you not applying rules made for men to angels? Hey Nick! Would God violate his own word when he says that you are to Worship God and him ONLY and yet tell the Angels to worship Jesus? Point being Jesus is God,One with the Father or there is a contradiction in his commandments! Dah How hard is that to understand my friend! Pss 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast ***magnified thy word above all thy name***. God puts priority on his Word above his own name!

Hi w,
Before we dare to judge what God WOULD say we should look at what he DOES say. Let's start from truth before venturing into speculation.
Heb 1
” 6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. “
which quotes Ps 97
” 7Let all those be ashamed who serve graven images,
Who boast themselves of idols;
Worship Him, all you gods. “

So having identified that these verses speak of the Son of God we have no right to derive from that fact that the Son of God must be his own father as well surely?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

Hi w, Before we dare to judge what God WOULD say we should look at what he DOES say. Let's start from truth before venturing into speculation. Heb 1 ” 6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. “ which quotes Ps 97 ” 7Let all those be ashamed who serve graven images, Who boast themselves of idols; Worship Him, all you gods. “ So having identified that these verses speak of the Son of God we have no right to derive from that fact that the Son of God must be his own father as well surely?

Contradictions Nick! Thou shalt have no other Gods before me!

The Lord I believe meant what he said! There shall be NO OTHER Gods before him! Because there is no other true God before him!

So if Jesus isnt God, One with the Father, then God has changed his mind and allowed another diety to be worshiped beside himself!

Lies!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

So having identified that these verses speak of the Son of God we have no right to derive from that fact that the Son of God must be his own father as well surely?

The Father and the Son are One! God in the Flesh!

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
It is not us who calls Jesus another deity.
If you have found an apparent contradiction then how are you going to resolve it without adding speculation to scripture? Such popular speculations include the theory that Jesus is not the Son of God but God Himself but such additions are anathema.
Human logic is little value in finding the truth and irrelevant compared with sacred scripture.

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 09 2006,23:31)

Quote Hi, Trinitarians are so terrified of being labelled polytheists that whenever they see divinity ascribed to a being such as the Word they abandon ship and declare that such a being is part of our God. Out the window goes the proven truth that Jesus is the Son of God and instead it becomes only a label for a personality in God. But when men and angels are called Elohim that is ignored. Where is the consistency? 1Cor 8 ” 3But if any man love God, the same is known of him. 4As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. 5For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him” We have one God, the God of Jesus, our Lord. Nick! Terrified!  LOL! I have known my savior God for 32 years! No fear here. I know in whom I have believed! You say “Trinitarians are so terrified of being labelled polytheists that whenever they see divinity ascribed to a being such as the Word they abandon ship **and declare that such a being is part of our God**.” Nick I thoght that Jesus was more than just a being and yes hes is a part of our God. So is he not a part of your God? You say” Out the window goes the proven truth that Jesus is the Son of God and instead it becomes only a label for a personality in God. But when men and angels are called Elohim that is ignored. Where is the consistency? Nick thats what I want to know where is the consistency in accepting the WHOLE council of God! All Scriptures! For if you hold all scriptures in play there is only one conclusion! Father – the Logos made Flesh (Jesus the Son) and the Holy Spirit sent By the Father through the Logos. These three are one. Until you accept this nothing else will seem right! God is One!

Hi W,
So your god has several parts?
three perhaps?
Did you find this written
or did you derive it from the study of scripture
or are you following the crowd on the wide road?

God is One.
For us there is One God AND One Lord Jesus.

[Author]

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