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Quote Hi W,
You say
“Jesus was the Word that was with God who became flesh and was born the Son.”But scripture speaks of a Father who snds his beloved Son into his vineyard and in 1Jn 4
” 9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. ”
NH
God sent, looking back to Jesus birth as a man! You cant be begotten untill you are born.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 11 2006,21:57) Quote Hi W,
“Arians”??I have a new name for your following!
***Dualtarians***
Hi W,
Bereans would be better.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 11 2006,22:10) Quote Hi W,
You say
“Jesus was the Word that was with God who became flesh and was born the Son.”But scripture speaks of a Father who snds his beloved Son into his vineyard and in 1Jn 4
” 9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. ”
NH
God sent, looking back to Jesus birth as a man! You cant be begotten untill you are born.
Hi W,
You should not speak of Jesus as just a man. He was with God as the Word in the beginning and his begettal as the Son of God was in the beginning, not just as the Son of God and Mary on earth.Hi W,
You quote
“Matt 1
20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.”So which person of your trinity was the father of Jesus?
Jesus was truly the son of a virgin but his fatherhood by God as the Monogenes Son was before time.
God does not share His glory with any and Ps 2 shows he begat the Son.Quote Hi W,
You should not speak of Jesus as just a man. He was with God as the Word in the beginning and his begettal as the Son of God was in the beginning, not just as the Son of God and Mary on earth.If he wasnt a man also NH then he couldnt be our Savior!
Isa 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and ***beside me there is no saviour***.Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is ***none beside me***.There is no mention of the Son here because the Godhead speaks and declares unity.
Quote Hi W,
You quote
“Matt 1
20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.”So which person of your trinity was the father of Jesus?
Jesus was truly the son of a virgin but his fatherhood by God as the Monogenes Son was before time.
God does not share His glory with any and Ps 2 shows he begat the Son.NH
Logic is weak human wisdom.
We cannot apply it to scripture and prove anything.
Scripture proves itself.
It is sad that you do not yet know who your God is yet that was the mission of Jesus.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 12 2006,00:42) Quote Hi W,
You should not speak of Jesus as just a man. He was with God as the Word in the beginning and his begettal as the Son of God was in the beginning, not just as the Son of God and Mary on earth.If he wasnt a man also NH then he couldnt be our Savior!
Isa 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and ***beside me there is no saviour***.Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is ***none beside me***.There is no mention of the Son here because the Godhead speaks and declares unity.
Hi W,
Indeed.
God alone saves
through JesusHi W,
9And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.10And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
11And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
12And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness.”
If God said this why would you not believe Him?
Peter did when God told them on the mountain.
2Peter 1
16For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount”
Or does God love Himself?
Quote Hi W,
God alone is the creator.
God has made everything
through Jesus.NH
God alone. Means God alone. Not God and Jesus and the Spirit.
Gen 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.col 1:16,17
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Quote Hi W,
9And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.10And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
11And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
12And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness.”
If God said this why would you not believe Him?
Peter did when God told them on the mountain.
2Peter 1
16For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount”
Or does God love Himself?
NH
You dont listen good.
I never said Jesus is not the Son.
But I believe far more of the Son than you do!
“Abide in the Word as a son must do.
Abhor Babylon and her idols. “Hi W,
Ahem,
Did you say
“Not God and Jesus and the Spirit.”
Slip of the tongue perhaps?Do you not understand the law of agency?
Do you really think Almighty God has to do all the ACTUAL work Himself?
Why do you think He began by begetting His Son?1 John 5
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.So is this good enough or do we have to add that we must ALSO believe that Jesus Christ is God.
The answer is no. There is nothing in scripture that says we must ALSO believe that Jesus Christ is God.
In fact the opposite is true. God and Jesus are spoken of as two and different.John 14:1
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God, trust also in me.Jude 1:4
For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our ONLY Sovereign and Lord.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 12 2006,01:06) Quote Hi W,
9And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.10And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
11And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
12And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness.”
If God said this why would you not believe Him?
Peter did when God told them on the mountain.
2Peter 1
16For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount”
Or does God love Himself?
NH
You dont listen good.
I never said Jesus is not the Son.
But I believe far more of the Son than you do!
“Abide in the Word as a son must do.
Abhor Babylon and her idols. “
Hi W,
God sent His Son.
God did not come Himself.
But He was filled as the Spirit of God into Christ.
God was IN Christ reconciling the world to Himself.KNOW the Son.
Kiss the SONQuote Hi W,
Ahem,
Did you say
“Not God and Jesus and the Spirit.”
Slip of the tongue perhaps?Do you not understand the law of agency?
Do you really think Almighty God has to do all the ACTUAL work Himself?
Why do you think He began by begetting His Son?NH
There you go again. Missing my point. Went right over your Dualitarian brain.
My point was you say”God alone created”.
Yet we do not see God and the Son and the Holy Spirit in Gen 1:1. So if it was “God alone as you say” and we believe that the Father Son and Holy Spirit had a part in creation, then the Godhead Father Son and holy Spirit is God.
So if you are gonna say “God alone” like the scriptures teach, then according to your view you would have to leave the Son and the Spirit out of creation.
Hope that spells it out to you.
Hi w,
You say
“Yet we do not see God and the Son and the Holy Spirit in Gen 1:1. So if it was “God alone as you say” and we believe that the Father Son and Holy Spirit had a part in creation, then the Godhead Father Son and holy Spirit is God.”If you find something that seems difficult to resolve in scripture
you do not have the right to add fabrications from outside of scripture to satisfy your mind.
That is anathema.
Trinity is not found in scripture.Quote 1 John 5
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.So is this good enough or do we have to add that we must ALSO believe that Jesus Christ is God.
The answer is no. There is nothing in scripture that says we must ALSO believe that Jesus Christ is God.
In fact the opposite is true. God and Jesus are spoken of as two and different.John 14:1
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God, trust also in me.Jude 1:4
For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our ONLY Sovereign and Lord.t8
When you can show that the scriptues teaches that we should not bow down and worship the Son as God, when the Father himself calls him God and commands the Angels to worship him,and the Father exalts him as Lord of Lords and King of Kings,and gives him all power and authority, and gives him a name that is above ALL NAMES “Jesus, Yeshua”, then I will believe you that I am not loving Jesus. Untill then He is my Lord and My God and I will serve him and in doing so will honor the Father.
JN 13:13
Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.Mk 12:30
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment.Jn 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.I Cor 4:5
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.You want to Judge a mans doctrine Fine, But when you judge a mans heart or his sincerity especially when he is a believer in Jesus, though his doctrine does not fit yours, then you tread on dangerous waters.
Matt 7:
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.Lk 6:37
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:This is your forum. Therefore it is your responsibility under God to lead men who you believe to be decieved into the truth by Love. If that is not happening, then maybe you should be concerned about the fruit.
To WorshippingJesus.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 12 2006,23:38) When you can show that the scriptues teaches that we should not bow down and worship the Son as God, when the Father himself calls him God and commands the Angels to worship him,and the Father exalts him as Lord of Lords and King of Kings,and gives him all power and authority, and gives him a name that is above ALL NAMES “Jesus, Yeshua”, then I will believe you that I am not loving Jesus. Untill then He is my Lord and My God and I will serve him and in doing so will honor the Father.
Well actually I don't really have a problem with what you have said here. I could get picky but I won't for the sake of encouraging you to honour God and his son.It's just the Trinity doctrine and other traditions that we should keep away from.
If you acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah and honour him as the son of God, then who am I to complain.
Keep going.
Sscott.
Re. your 5 questions.Q1. Your comments. God is a Trinity..without one member of the Trinity you do not have God.
There are a number of models of the “trinity” being used in Christianity today and your question I assume deals with the Catholic trinity.
In a nutshell the Catholics teach that originally there was God the Father and that He copulated with Himself to produce God the Son, and then out of them both came the Holy Spirit. A three in one, one in three blend. This is unbiblical rubbish borrowed from paganism. No wonder it does not provide answers to your questions.
The word trinity is not found in scripture and I prefer not to use it. In the old testament we have the word “Elohiym” meaning God in the plurality or Gods. The new testament uses words like Godhead and Deity. (Theos Theios, Theiotes,)
The Bible Godhead consist of The Father, Son and the Holy Ghost. Each is a separate divine Person and each the Eternal God. The new testament Greek word for God “Theos” sometime refers individually to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit: and at other times refers to the Godhead. We must read scripture in its context to know Who it refers to.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: /I]
Your question
So when Jesus cries out “My God My God why have you forsaken me”….how is it possible that God forsook God?
With the Catholic “trinity” it does not make sense, but with the Bible Godhead then it makes perfect sense. At the cross God withdrew His presence from Christ because of our sins.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
This was the first time in eternity that Christ was separated from God. This started in Gethsemane; hence His suffering.
Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
It was our sins placed on the spotless Lamb of God that separated Christ from God.
Q2. Your comments
If Jesus was 100% God and 100% man how could He sin? God cannot be tempted to sin. Jesus had to have the possibility of sinning or else he could not be a faithful High Priest able to sympathize with our weakness.
There has on this forum been much confusion between Christ’s mission or “office” as Messiah and that of His substance which is The Eternal God. With respect to Matt Slick I’d rather follow what the Bible teaches.
When Christ was to leave heaven and was to take the form of a man He did not cease to be God. He simply put aside His own divine power and was dependent on God for power. This makes Him our example to follow because we too are to depend totally on God.
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
He had to overcome Satan while living as a man. Christ did not come to earth to show what a God can do, but what man can do when he depends on God for power. He succeeded where Adam failed.
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
A human body was fashioned for Christ. A body which had sinful propensities just like ours. A body less than what Adam had, weakened by the curse of sin.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Christ condemned sin in the flesh. He resisted sin. Don’t forget that He laid aside His divine power and did not use it for His own benefit, overcoming temptation relying on God for power. We too can resist temptation if we rely on God for power. Christ was our example.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.Luk 4:2 (Jesus) Being forty days tempted of the devil.
Luk 4:12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.Who was being tempted here? Jesus; The Lord thy God.
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Q.3 Your comments
There are many instances in the scripture where Jesus calls the Father..His God and says the Father is greater than I. I always thought this was in reference to Jesus being a Man on earth. But you also have accounts of Jesus calling the Father His God after the resurection. He calls the Father His God when speaking to Mary and again in Revelations. (Rev 3:12) Why is Jesus still calling the Father His God? There is also a passage that says the head of Jesus is God. (1 Cor 11:3)
In many of these instances Jesus was encumbered with humanity or within the context of Him being the Messiah. Don’t forget that Christ is still ministering for us right now as our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary. So His mission is not yet over.
Even within the Godhead each Divine Person recognise and have reverence for the other as God.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Q.4 Your comments
In John 5:26 Jesus says:
26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,This is also in the context of Christ mission as Messiah. Within the Godhead a plan was made for the salvation of man. It is evident that each divine Person within the Godhead takes on a different office or role. It is a pity that we too cannot learn to work together and to serve each other.
Q.5 Your comments
John 6:58 says:
57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.This also is in the context of Christ’s mission as Messiah. I have already covered this.
sscott. The catholic trinity concept is clearly wrong, however most of the other Christian churches are teaching the Bible Godhead which is truth. However it is unfortunate that they use the word “trinity” which sometimes confuses theirs with the Catholic teaching.
Beware of the false teachers here on this forum; they will lead you astray.
Christ describes them well.
Mat 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:They are wilfully blind.
2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4:4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
sscott. I hope that I have addressed all of your concerns.
Quote Quote
Hi W,
Ahem,
Did you say
“Not God and Jesus and the Spirit.”
Slip of the tongue perhaps?Do you not understand the law of agency?
Do you really think Almighty God has to do all the ACTUAL work Himself?
Why do you think He began by begetting His Son?NH
There you go again. Missing my point. Went right over your Dualitarian brain.
My point was you say”God alone created”.
Yet we do not see God and the Son and the Holy Spirit in Gen 1:1. So if it was “God alone as you say” and we believe that the Father Son and Holy Spirit had a part in creation, then the Godhead Father Son and holy Spirit is God.
So if you are gonna say “God alone” like the scriptures teach, then according to your view you would have to leave the Son and the Spirit out of creation.
Hope that spells it out to you.
————–
Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author ( chief leader),and finisher(The Perfector), of our faith….
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Hi w,
You say
“Yet we do not see God and the Son and the Holy Spirit in Gen 1:1. So if it was “God alone as you say” and we believe that the Father Son and Holy Spirit had a part in creation, then the Godhead Father Son and holy Spirit is God.”If you find something that seems difficult to resolve in scripture
you do not have the right to add fabrications from outside of scripture to satisfy your mind.
That is anathema.
Trinity is not found in scripture.NH
Right over your head!
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