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The diagram at the bottom is used to describe the Triune Nature of God:
Now for Jesus to be like us in humanity and temptation it would seem that there would have to have been the possibility of failure. The reason He is able to be a High Priest who can sympathize with us is because he was tempted in every way as we are and did not give in.
Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.Christ was Victorious.
So I have two questions:
1) How does this Diagram of God’s nature allow for Christ to have the possibility of failure. Is it even possible?
2)If Christ, the Son, would have failed how would that have affected the Godhead / nature of God.
Hi sscott:
And so this shows you that the “Trinity dotrine” is false doctrine. Because it states that Jesus is God. Numbers 23:19 states: “God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent:…”. James 1:13 states: “Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: FOR GOD CANNOT BE TEMPTED WITH EVIL,…”. Jesus was tempted as you quote Hebrews 4:15 and was victorious.
If Jesus had failed, God would still be God, but Jesus would be dead because, “THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH…”. (Romans 6:23) He would be eternally separated from God and so would we.
Hi sscott, yes, the Trinity is alive and well, but there are some very hard nosed people in this forum who will battle us to the end and completely ignore overwhelming evidence from the Scriptures, yet will expect us to abide by their misguided quotes.
I like the picture of the Trinity, but would portray it a little differently myself, but only by making the Father's circle a tad bigger.
Blessings
Hi Oxy,
Have you received a personal spiritual revelation on this matter of a trinity as it is not spoken of in Scripture?Jn 14
” 23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. “
To show our love of our Saviour we should love his words and the Holy Spirit will remind us of them so we can know what we believe is true.
Quote (sscott @ Nov. 08 2006,03:05) The diagram at the bottom is used to describe the Triune Nature of God: Now for Jesus to be like us in humanity and temptation it would seem that there would have to have been the possibility of failure. The reason He is able to be a High Priest who can sympathize with us is because he was tempted in every way as we are and did not give in.
Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.Christ was Victorious.
So I have two questions:
1) How does this Diagram of God’s nature allow for Christ to have the possibility of failure. Is it even possible?
2)If Christ, the Son, would have failed how would that have affected the Godhead / nature of God.
Good questions, sscott, and welcome to the board.So given the diagram,
I ask Trinitarians once again, how does one appear before himself? And what need is there for one to appear before himself? Assuming as Trinitarians claim, that they believe God is One?Hbr 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
And why does one appoint himself a HIGHPRIEST so as to serve himself?- Hebrews 5:1,4 For EVERY high priest taken from among men is APPOINTED for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins… And no man takes this honor to himself, but he who is called by God, just as Aaron was.
- Hebrews 5:5-6 SO CHRIST ALSO DID NOT glorify himself to BECOME High Priest, but it was He who said to Him:
“You are my son, Today I have begotten You.”
As He also says in another place: “you are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.”
And why does one need a MEDIATOR to mediate between himself and others IF in fact, he intended to negotiate face to face with his opponent etc?The Trinity makes void Christ as our highpriest and mediator, and asserts that it does not understand who God is, or what a highpriest or mediator is.
Quote Hi sscott: And so this shows you that the “Trinity dotrine” is false doctrine. Because it states that Jesus is God. Numbers 23:19 states: “God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent:…”. James 1:13 states: “Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: FOR GOD CANNOT BE TEMPTED WITH EVIL,…”. Jesus was tempted as you quote Hebrews 4:15 and was victorious.
If Jesus had failed, God would still be God, but Jesus would be dead because, “THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH…”. (Romans 6:23) He would be eternally separated from God and so would we.
Foolish exegesis of the carnal mind!
How dose the temptations of the man Jesus disprove the scriptures my friend!
II Cor 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Why do you not say because Jesus the man was not born of adam but of God having no sin in him, and because this Jesus who thought it not robbery to be equal to God humbled himself taking on the form of a servant and as **A MAN** submitted his will perfectly to the Father’s will even to the death of the cross.
The Word which was with God and was God came from God and became the Son Jesus, Purily man having a Spirit that’s purily God! I and My Father are One!
Quote (Oxy @ Nov. 09 2006,03:46) Hi sscott, yes, the Trinity is alive and well, but there are some very hard nosed people in this forum who will battle us to the end and completely ignore overwhelming evidence from the Scriptures, yet will expect us to abide by their misguided quotes. I like the picture of the Trinity, but would portray it a little differently myself, but only by making the Father's circle a tad bigger.
Blessings
Oxy that has got to be a joke.There are hundreds of scriptures that cannot be reconciled to the Trinity doctrine. You statement is incredibly ignorant.
As for making God or representing God with your imagination, we are told that we shouldn't make idols.
How can God who created all things, be represented by any statue, carving, or 2 dimensional diagram.
Hi w,
You say
“II Cor 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.Why do you not say because Jesus the man was not born of adam but of God having no sin in him, and because this Jesus who thought it not robbery to be equal to God humbled himself taking on the form of a servant and as **A MAN** submitted his will perfectly to the Father’s will even to the death of the cross.”
Indeed God was in Christ, not as Christ but in Christ. Christ was a man of divine origins who emptied and humbled himself being conceived of the Holy Spirit of God and Mary, thus partaking also of our fleshly state.
The Son of God became also Son of man. If he did not partake of Adam's estate through Mary then he was not truly one of us, and we cannot follow him.
Good questions, sscott, and welcome to the board.
So given the diagram,
I ask Trinitarians once again, how does one appear before himself? And what need is there for one to appear before himself? Assuming as Trinitarians claim, that they believe God is One?Hbr 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
And why does one appoint himself a HIGHPRIEST so as to serve himself?
• Hebrews 5:1,4 For EVERY high priest taken from among men is APPOINTED for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins… And no man takes this honor to himself, but he who is called by God, just as Aaron was.
• Hebrews 5:5-6 SO CHRIST ALSO DID NOT glorify himself to BECOME High Priest, but it was He who said to Him:“You are my son, Today I have begotten You.”
As He also says in another place: “you are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.”And why does one need a MEDIATOR to mediate between himself and others IF in fact, he intended to negotiate face to face with his opponent etc?
The Trinity makes void Christ as our highpriest and mediator, and asserts that it does not understand who God is, or what a highpriest or mediator is.
Quote Good questions, sscott, and welcome to the board. So given the diagram,
I ask Trinitarians once again, how does one appear before himself? And what need is there for one to appear before himself? Assuming as Trinitarians claim, that they believe God is One?Hbr 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
And why does one appoint himself a HIGHPRIEST so as to serve himself?
• Hebrews 5:1,4 For EVERY high priest taken from among men is APPOINTED for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins… And no man takes this honor to himself, but he who is called by God, just as Aaron was.
• Hebrews 5:5-6 SO CHRIST ALSO DID NOT glorify himself to BECOME High Priest, but it was He who said to Him:“You are my son, Today I have begotten You.”
As He also says in another place: “you are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.”And why does one need a MEDIATOR to mediate between himself and others IF in fact, he intended to negotiate face to face with his opponent etc?
The Trinity makes void Christ as our highpriest and mediator, and asserts that it does not understand who God is, or what a highpriest or mediator is.
Hey cubes!
You say” So given the diagram, I ask Trinitarians once again, how does one appear before himself? And what need is there for one to appear before himself?
I thought trinitarions believe in three persons! Not one person talking to them selves!
You say” Assuming as Trinitarians claim, that they believe God is One?”
Um you say that God is one and yet you call Jesus Lord! Jesus himself forbid this kinda of practice!
Luke 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
Ex 20:5 And God spake all these words, saying,
[2] I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
[3] Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
[4] Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
[5] Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;So based on your belief then God is a liar and or has changed his mind..
He says “thou shalt not bow down thyself to them nor serve them”
Why would God the Father Make this declaration of himself and then violate it by sending a man named Jesus who, (you say he is just the Son of God ), and tell you to serve him and bow down to him!
Matt 6:24 24] No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.
God even commanded the angels to worship him!
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
[6] And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.If we were to take your view point then the scriptures are in contradiction of themselves!
You can’t have two Lords or two masters!
The Father Son and Holy Spirit are ONE.
[5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
[6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
[7] But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.God is in Christ his Body, Jesus is in God his bosom Glorified as ONE God and Together Sending the Spirit of God!
The God that tabernacled above the tents of Israel, who tabernacled in the temple on mount Moriah, now took on Himself a tent of flesh and tabernacled as a man amongst men. But He was the SAME GOD! The Bible teaches that GOD WAS IN CHRIST. The body, the outward human form, was Jesus, the Son of God. In Him dwelt and dwells all the fullness of the Godhead, bodily (Col. 2:9). Nothing can be plainer than that! Mystery, yes. But actual truth — it can’t be plainer!
Hey Nick!
You say
“Indeed God was in Christ, not as Christ but in Christ. Christ was a man of divine origins who emptied and humbled himself being conceived of the Holy Spirit of God and Mary, thus partaking also of our fleshly state.
The Son of God became also Son of man. If he did not partake of Adam's estate through Mary then he was not truly one of us, and we cannot follow him.”Where does the term “Divine Origins” appaer in the scriptures?
Origin means it has a beginning!
Show me scriptures Nick that says The Logos had a beginning!!
Carnal reasonings!
Quote The Son of God became also Son of man. If he did not partake of Adam's estate through Mary then he was not truly one of us, and we cannot follow him. Of course he took on human Flesh! The Word was Made flesh! The flesh came into existence form the Word.
Through Mary yes he was a man! But his blood line was from God else he could not be the Son of God!
Hi W,
Ps 2
” 7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. “
and in context quoted in Heb 1
5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.”
So the begettal preceded the sending into the world.Quote 6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.”
So the begettal preceded the sending into the world.WorshippingJesus,
How does this verse that Nick posted fit with the Trinity doctrine?
Quote Hi W,
Ps 2
” 7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. “
and in context quoted in Heb 1
5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.”
So the begettal preceded the sending into the world.Hey Nick!
Why dont you use this scripture in its context?
Ps 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
[2] The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
[3] Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
[4] He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
[5] Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
[6] **Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.**
[7] **I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.**
[8] Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
[9] Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
[10] Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
[11] Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
[12] Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.And you will see in vrs 2 that the kings and the rulers take counsel together against the Lord and his anointed! Which precedes the Lord saying
“Thou art my Son this day have I begotten thee”.Acts 13:33
33that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm,
'YOU ARE MY SON; TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU.'Romans 1:4
4who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,II Sam 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels,
and I will establish his kingdom.[13] He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
[14] I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:Luke 1:31-35
35The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.Looks like the Apostles and the Prophets disagree with you Nick.
Why do you continue to twist the scriptures and try to poisen our minds with your Arianistic beliefs!
You still havn't shown me a scripture that shows that Jesus had a beginning!
Hi W,
Ps 2
“1Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?2The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
3Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.
5Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”
The rebellion of the kings against Christ and God surely is the reflection of Rev 20
” 7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.”
So the context of the begettal of Christ does not seem to be significant in ps 2 timewise, but rather it is a warning that from the moment of that begettal the kingdom was promised to the Son, so such rebellion is truly futile.
Quote WorshippingJesus, How does this verse that Nick posted fit with the Trinity doctrine?
Hey SScott!
Good question! Of course I have challenged them to show me just one scripture where when Jesus is being worshipped,
which happens many times where Jesus discouraged it or pointed them to the Father.Why did not Jesus knowing the Commandment “thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and
him only shalt thou serve” at least in one instance discourage it. No one can show me anywhere Jesus even hinted at them not to worship him.
Every other incident where you see a A man of God or an Angel being worshiped the recipient quickly refuses it and
points them to God!They use the following scriptures to say that Jesus taught us How to worship the Father which is true. And surely Jesus the Great Teacher knowing what this word he used called worship means that he would not allow it to be performed on himself or at least he would use every opportunity to point them to the Father. Not so. So it means that he recieved worship unto himself and sinned, or he knew who he was, the Logos by whom God created all things, the Logos God made flesh!
John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
[24] God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.But the Gr word for worship is:proskuneo {pros-koo-neh'-o} which means 1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
2) among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
3) in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
Again when you see this kind of act toward men or angels it is discouraged. But not so with Jesus. Jesus knew what this word meant and the writer John knew what it meant so did the other Apostles! Look up how many times the same word is used!
Matt 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
Matt 9:18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.
Matt 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
Mk 5:6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
Luke 24:52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:
Jn 9:38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
And on and on… and of course Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him
You will find that those who have theology based in Arianism cannot accept the worship Of Jesus because that would completly destroy their base!
The same in regards to the Holy Spirit not being a person but a power or an agent of God, Agency is a word you may hear.
Their belief is close to the JWs in this manor, though they seem to give the Spirit a little more credit by being more than just the power of God!
Hope this helps!
Quote Hi W, Ps 2
“1Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?2The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
3Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.
5Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”
The rebellion of the kings against Christ and God surely is the reflection of Rev 20
” 7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.”
So the context of the begettal of Christ does not seem to be significant in ps 2 timewise, but rather it is a warning that from the moment of that begettal the kingdom was promised to the Son, so such rebellion is truly futile.
Hey nick!
Not true
Interpret scripture with scripture, you never mentioned the other scriptures!
Quote So the context of the begettal of Christ does not seem to be significant in ps 2 timewise, but rather it is a warning that from the moment of that begettal the kingdom was promised to the Son, so such rebellion is truly futile. Hey Nick!
Human logic again! You say it does not seem!
You are so contentious!
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