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Hi CA,
I have some time here and thought I'd try to get some quick thoughts down.
Quote Eating meat on Friday has always been a pastoral provision and not infallible Dogma. It would fall in the category of married priests. In the Latin West they usually don't allow it. In the East we do.
Okay, gotcha. But you must understand that for those of us who do not have the indoctrination of the Catholic church, all of these “rules” run into one another. And since when should a pastor determine what his people eat (and when)? Curious…. As far as, “Infallible Dogma” – I haven't a clue? Are we not all humans and our very nature indicative of failings?Quote So we have this huge snapshot of the constant teaching of the church in every generation. And the amazing thing is that it is in complete conformity and agreement.
Except for the meat thing, right?
Quote I really don't believe a loving God wants us to be in doubt about things of such eternal importance. But yes, we do believe that it is possible that guys like Sidharta Gautama (the Bhuda) MAY have received mercy from God and been saved (we don't know…but we allow for this based upon the light they had and the seeking of God they may have done). Only God knows. But Catholics agree that we won't know until the end who makes it because we are not omniscient. We have faith in God who loves all men and wants them to be saved more than we do.
Thank you for this – music to my ears! I have to say though, you are the only Catholic I have ever talked with that would say such a thing. Most believe that if you are not a part of the ONLY Church – you are lost. Perhaps you are humoring me? Do you believe, for instance, that Protestants are saved even if they do not join the Catholic church?Quote I must admit that somewhere there is the necessity of faith.
Ah yes, faith. It is impossible to please God without it, right? It all comes down to this……faith……believing in something that you cannot know for certain….the hope of God and salvation. In all honestly, it's all we really have. So what does it matter how you package it? I'm beginning to wonder….Quote So let me say that one of the biggest proofs of the Catholic faith is that in 2,000 years of saints and sinners, not one person has been able to change the deposit of faith. We still believe in the Trinity. We still believe in the Deity of Jesus Christ. We still confess “one baptism for the forgiveness of sins”. On and on and on.
I'm not sure how I feel about this, to be honest. Paul admonishes us to grow in our depth of insight. Jesus encourages us to “know” God and himself. The revelations of the Catholic church are set, as you say. They are in fact, unchanging. I can bank on this, you say.But…..
Have you ever believed something so strongly and then changed your mind? Oh ya, you have!
Me, too. My point is that perhaps the church got it wrong? Just the mere fact that they are set and not changing come hell-or-high-water isn't comforting to me. In fact, it's the opposite. I think to myself, “Gosh, maybe they aren't listening anymore. Maybe they are just banking on what they learned eons ago? Maybe no new insight is even allowed? I dunno.Quote How do we check anything? We have to use God-given reason. That's the best we can do.
This answer doesn't work for me. Frankly, I'm surprised it is working for you? You – who wants to know the absolute truth. And you – who believes there has to be ONE RIGHT WAY! When I ask how can we check to know which way is right? Or how can we check the sources that were handed down so many years ago? Your answer is faith and reason. You'll have to forgive me if I think your answer is weak. Especially if you are claiming to be a part of the ONE church…..all you have to prove it for sure is your faith and reason?I have to tell you what a relief that is to my soul. Your honestly is so damn refreshing! Can I say “damn” when I'm not ref'ing the firely hell?
I guess we'll see if a little warning “tile” appears under my name. Then we'll know for sure.Quote So things were written down to avoid this. The bishop doesn't have to say to the other priests “I'm getting old now, sit down and I'll tell you what my predecessor told me and what his predecessor told him and so on”. That is NOT how the Oral Tradition of the church has been passed down. First, we have writings throughout history to look back and verify
But this is my point exactly – how can you even trust the written history that you are checking against? You cannot. You have faith that they copied everything correctly – that there were no hidden agenda's going on – that everyone was honest – that certain things went uncorrupted. That's a lot of faith, bro. And it's needed, because there is no way to know for sure.Quote The game of “Telephone” does not actually simulate normal oral communications.
Fair enough. However, oral traditions would rely heavily on memory. As we know – our memories vary depending on quite a few circumstances. Perhaps a tradition was handed down orally from a member who happened to be tired or ill? Maybe he forgot a certain part, or changed it accidentally. Even a “also”, or “the”, or “is” would be enough to send bible readers into all sorts of directions and beliefs. Sound familiar?Quote It is no different within the Church. In fact, because it deals with knowledge about God Himself, preserving the history was even more important.
And I have no doubt that they preserve
d what was handed down to them, and so on, and so on….I love oral traditions, don't get me wrong. I'm being the 'devils advocate' if you will here. But I know in our own family that there are stories that have been handed down, and depending on who or which family is re-telling the story – some elements change or are left out entirely. Humans fail.
On that happy note, I better close this long post. I would hate to bore my audience.
Love,
MandyQuote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 10 2009,14:01) Hi CA, I have some time here and thought I'd try to get some quick thoughts down.
Quote Eating meat on Friday has always been a pastoral provision and not infallible Dogma. It would fall in the category of married priests. In the Latin West they usually don't allow it. In the East we do.
Okay, gotcha. But you must understand that for those of us who do not have the indoctrination of the Catholic church, all of these “rules” run into one another. And since when should a pastor determine what his people eat (and when)? Curious…. As far as, “Infallible Dogma” – I haven't a clue? Are we not all humans and our very nature indicative of failings?Quote So we have this huge snapshot of the constant teaching of the church in every generation. And the amazing thing is that it is in complete conformity and agreement.
Except for the meat thing, right? Quote I really don't believe a loving God wants us to be in doubt about things of such eternal importance. But yes, we do believe that it is possible that guys like Sidharta Gautama (the Bhuda) MAY have received mercy from God and been saved (we don't know…but we allow for this based upon the light they had and the seeking of God they may have done). Only God knows. But Catholics agree that we won't know until the end who makes it because we are not omniscient. We have faith in God who loves all men and wants them to be saved more than we do.
Thank you for this – music to my ears! I have to say though, you are the only Catholic I have ever talked with that would say such a thing. Most believe that if you are not a part of the ONLY Church – you are lost. Perhaps you are humoring me? Do you believe, for instance, that Protestants are saved even if they do not join the Catholic church?Quote I must admit that somewhere there is the necessity of faith.
Ah yes, faith. It is impossible to please God without it, right? It all comes down to this……faith……believing in something that you cannot know for certain….the hope of God and salvation. In all honestly, it's all we really have. So what does it matter how you package it? I'm beginning to wonder….Quote So let me say that one of the biggest proofs of the Catholic faith is that in 2,000 years of saints and sinners, not one person has been able to change the deposit of faith. We still believe in the Trinity. We still believe in the Deity of Jesus Christ. We still confess “one baptism for the forgiveness of sins”. On and on and on.
I'm not sure how I feel about this, to be honest. Paul admonishes us to grow in our depth of insight. Jesus encourages us to “know” God and himself. The revelations of the Catholic church are set, as you say. They are in fact, unchanging. I can bank on this, you say.But…..
Have you ever believed something so strongly and then changed your mind? Oh ya, you have!
Me, too. My point is that perhaps the church got it wrong? Just the mere fact that they are set and not changing come hell-or-high-water isn't comforting to me. In fact, it's the opposite. I think to myself, “Gosh, maybe they aren't listening anymore. Maybe they are just banking on what they learned eons ago? Maybe no new insight is even allowed? I dunno.Quote How do we check anything? We have to use God-given reason. That's the best we can do.
This answer doesn't work for me. Frankly, I'm surprised it is working for you? You – who wants to know the absolute truth. And you – who believes there has to be ONE RIGHT WAY! When I ask how can we check to know which way is right? Or how can we check the sources that were handed down so many years ago? Your answer is faith and reason. You'll have to forgive me if I think your answer is weak. Especially if you are claiming to be a part of the ONE church…..all you have to prove it for sure is your faith and reason?I have to tell you what a relief that is to my soul. Your honestly is so damn refreshing! Can I say “damn” when I'm not ref'ing the firely hell?
I guess we'll see if a little warning “tile” appears under my name. Then we'll know for sure.Quote So things were written down to avoid this. The bishop doesn't have to say to the other priests “I'm getting old now, sit down and I'll tell you what my predecessor told me and what his predecessor told him and so on”. That is NOT how the Oral Tradition of the church has been passed down. First, we have writings throughout history to look back and verify
But this is my point exactly – how can you even trust the written history that you are checking against? You cannot. You have faith that they copied everything correctly – that there were no hidden agenda's going on – that everyone was honest – that certain things went uncorrupted. That's a lot of faith, bro. And it's needed, because there is no way to know for sure.Quote The game of “Telephone” does not actually simulate normal oral communications.
Fair enough. However, oral traditions would rely heavily on memory. As we know – our memories vary depending on quite a few circumstances. Perhaps a tradition was handed down orally from a member who happened to be tired or ill? Maybe he forgot a certain part, or changed it accidentally. Even a “also”, or “the”, or “is” would be enough to send bible readers into all sorts of directions and beliefs. Sound familiar?Quote It is no different w
ithin the Church. In fact, because it deals with knowledge about God Himself, preserving the history was even more important.
And I have no doubt that they preserved what was handed down to them, and so on, and so on….I love oral traditions, don't get me wrong. I'm being the 'devils advocate' if you will here. But I know in our own family that there are stories that have been handed down, and depending on who or which family is re-telling the story – some elements change or are left out entirely. Humans fail.
On that happy note, I better close this long post. I would hate to bore my audience.
Love,
Mandy
Hi Not3,Let me first say that I'm really enjoying our little chat.
Quote Quote Eating meat on Friday has always been a pastoral provision and not infallible Dogma. It would fall in the category of married priests. In the Latin West they usually don't allow it. In the East we do.
Okay, gotcha. But you must understand that for those of us who do not have the indoctrination of the Catholic church, all of these “rules” run into one another.Well, at the end of the day it only really matters to Catholics anyway. Non-Catholics are free to not give a rat's flying rear end. (Can I say rear end?…Just kidding
) We understand the difference.Quote And since when should a pastor determine what his people eat (and when)? Curious…. It's not about determining what people eat. It's about a corporate fast. We fast on the day we commemorate the Lord's suffering and crucifixion. We do this tiny little act compared to His great act so that we can meditate upon what He did and ask Him for the grace to carry our own crosses and follow after Him. It's really a wonderfully beautiful thing. And for us this burden is light. Which reminds me…it goes without saying that there is provision made for those who have illnesses that would make such fasting harmful. Love is the rule.
Quote As far as, “Infallible Dogma” – I haven't a clue? Are we not all humans and our very nature indicative of failings? Yes. WE are as individual humans. But you can't point to the body of Catholic belief and point to any one man, but Jesus Christ. Just as the Holy Spirit preserved the sinful apostles from error when they penned Scripture, so the apostles and their successors teaching in unison are preserved from error when they TEACH the faith. I find it wildly unreasonable to think that God would go to the trouble of preserving an infallible written book and then not provide for an infallible interpretation and teaching of that book. I mean, what would be the point?
Quote Thank you for this – music to my ears! Your welcome. To mine as well. God isn't just waiting to zap us for making the wrong guess. He wants sincerity and truth from us. He wants us to SEEK Him. I think He's big enough to take care of the rest. I know He has for me. And He continues to. We Catholics believe that conversion is a life long process. That doesn't sit well with Fundamentalists who have to have everything together so THEY can minister to YOU. But I can say with a good Catholic, St. Paul, “not that I have already attained or have been made perfect…but this one thing I do…”
Quote I have to say though, you are the only Catholic I have ever talked with that would say such a thing. Most believe that if you are not a part of the ONLY Church – you are lost. I won't deny that there have been Traditionalist Catholics who have erred on that side of things. But I think it is the general consensus among Catholic theologians that ignorance is invincible when it is truly ignorant. How can you be truly guilty of a sin you don't know IS sin? That is not to say that the sin cannot have negative consequences by it's nature. It is just to ask how the person could be justly punished for it.
As to “no salvation outside the church”, this statement is expounded and clearly defined by the Church. It would make this post way too long. But at the risk of over-simplifying things…we believe that all graces that anyone receives come through and by virtue of the Church.
I am confident that there are and will be many folks in eternal life who never darkened the doors of a Catholic church. God is rich in mercy.
Quote Perhaps you are humoring me? Do you believe, for instance, that Protestants are saved even if they do not join the Catholic church? No. I'm really being serious. In fact, I think that so many Protestants in the US hate what they perceive the CC to be, but are so ignorant that God will show them mercy because of their ignorance and unbelief. But I have to think that there is a reason that God is leading you out of ignorance. I think the reason He lead me out of my ignorance regarding the Church is that I personally needed the graces of the sacraments of the Church to be saved. I was a slave to my sin. When my spiritual father laid his hands on my to give me absolution after my first confession, the power of God shot from the top of my head to the soles of my feet. A HUGE burden lifted. I believe that I passed from death to life. And my evil impulses and thoughts of despair fled from me.
But I do think that there are many Protestants who are men and women of integrity and live lives of perfect contrition and repentance and holiness and God will give them grace in their dying hour and in addition to all of this, show them mercy for their rejection of the Church due to their ignorance and unbelief. But for someone to “count on” such an experience would seem to me to imply that ignorance is not there…only unbelief. I don't think it pays in the end to be stubborn with God, but how can we be in danger when we seek to be pliable in His hands?
Quote I'm not sure how I feel about this, to be honest. Paul admonishes us to grow in our depth of insight. Jesus encourages us to “know” God and himself. The revelations of the Catholic church are se
t, as you say.We believe that Dogma develops. But, yes, once the Holy Spirit has led us corporately into the understanding of truth then all is settled and we can all be at peace on that point. This of course doesn't even touch on the issue of “knowing” God. But it does make way for it. Let me explain:
When I was a Pentecostal/Protestant I was SO BUSY trying to assure that what I believed was accurate that my spiritual life had less time for prayer and communion with God. Especially compared to what I have now that all is at peace. I am free to commune with God and grow in my relationship with Him without the encumberance of my doubts and strivings about “being right” in my theology about God. Now I can just get to know Him. Prayer is HUGE to all devout Catholics.
Quote Have you ever believed something so strongly and then changed your mind? Oh ya, you have! Me, too. My point is that perhaps the church got it wrong?If the church “got it wrong”, then it sure seems like God chose a method that was destined for failure. You could say, well some guy over in his prayer closet did get it right while the Church got it wrong. If that was ever the case, then Christianity is a religion for God's favorites and not for everyone. Because I've got to tell you, reality doesn't bear out that we all can pray and hear God perfectly and all get it right. I didn't. You didn't. And if these other cats are honest, they'll admit that they didn't.
Jesus promised to build only one thing and that was His church. And so if that failed, then what was God doing anyway?
Quote Just the mere fact that they are set and not changing come hell-or-high-water isn't comforting to me. Well it sure is comforting to me. It means that God loves me too much to put me in a position that it is easy to get it wrong.
I'm not a sadist. I don't enjoy having to spend my life scrambling to make sure I believe all of the right things about God so I can get on with this inner desire to know Him. And I'm so thankful to find that He didn't make the world that way.
Did you ever wonder why God made the world and reality the way He did? Did you ever wonder why we can't just speak into the sky, ask any question we want, and receive the answer audibly? Well I sure have. I've even prayed about it and asked God why too. Do you know what my answer was? He showed me the Catholic Church. He showed me that I didn't have to fight and search with limited information to go on and assemble the entire body of Christian thought that would satisfy all of my questions. Jesus came and left a Church behind that has stood the test of time and will stand to the end of time.
Quote Quote How do we check anything? We have to use God-given reason. That's the best we can do.
This answer doesn't work for me. Frankly, I'm surprised it is working for you? You – who wants to know the absolute truth. And you – who believes there has to be ONE RIGHT WAY! When I ask how can we check to know which way is right? Or how can we check the sources that were handed down so many years ago? Your answer is faith and reason. You'll have to forgive me if I think your answer is weak.I can't pretend to know what you think when I say that. But I do admit that I am a weak communicator. I'll post a separate reply dealing directly with this.
But let me just say this. When I say reason, I am saying that the mountain of verifiable proofs for the veracity of the Catholic faith is REASONABLE to me and anyone with the gift of reason.
Did you understand this to be my answer?
Quote Your honestly is so damn refreshing! Well, I really don't have anything to prove. I don't have any agendas other than to be real with you and communicate honestly. That's why I don't shy away from addressing the scandalous actions of various leaders and members of the Church throughout history. I knew about that going into this. It was actually more of a proof to me that I found the right thing, rather than something that scared me off. Why? Because Jesus prepared us all for what would happen. And the miracle that some of those scoundrels were in a seat of power but were powerless to teach false doctrine is uncanny. I mean it really is amazing to me…given human nature.
Quote But this is my point exactly – how can you even trust the written history that you are checking against? You cannot. You have faith that they copied everything correctly – that there were no hidden agenda's going on – that everyone was honest – that certain things went uncorrupted. That's a lot of faith, bro. Actually I don't think it takes all that much faith. I mean, everything we assume about the world comes from weaker sources than what is provided by the Catholic church. And the letters and documents are spread across the world. Investigative journalists have much less to go on (understatement there) than we do in the deposit of faith. The body of evidence is actually overwhelming me just thinking about it. I keep thinking of more things to add to the pile.
Quote And it's needed, because there is no way to know for sure. Well with that criteria, then there is no way to know ANYTHING for sure. But let's just say you can be as sure as is humanly possible. I mean, think about it, I don't KNOW that my wife isn't stepping out on me. But I'm SURE she's not. Do you see what I mean?
Quote However, oral traditions would rely heavily on memory. Until they are written down. Which they constantly were…and then copied and disseminated throughout the world. The game of telephone would have gone in different directions in different cultural linguistic regions of the world. But they didn't.
Quote Even a “also”, or “the”, or “is” would be enough to send bible readers into all sorts of directions and beliefs. Sound familiar? Yes, but as I just said, this would be easy to isolate and identify given the translations in various vernacular languages and dissemination throughout the world. We see this even in the ancient liturgies.
Which reminds me…don't you think it is interesting that ALL of the apostolic churches having a fountain of apostolic succession (Catholics, Orthodox, Coptic, Ethiopic, Thomas Christian of India, etc.) believe 99.9% the same thing and only vary on semantics for the other .1%?
Quote But I know in our own family that there are stories that have been handed down, and depending on who or which family is re-telling the story – some elements change or are left out entirely. This is why we insist on seeing the Tradition consistently in the fathers writings to consider it Sacred Tradition.
OBJECTOR: Catholicism is a dangerous religion because it depends solely on faith. Its beliefs are not based on reason and in some cases are even contrary to reason. No reasonable human being could be a Catholic. To depend on this kind of baseless faith is tantamount to superstition, and superstition is always dangerous.
Furthermore, Catholicism is dangerous because it restricts the freedom of individuals to live their lives. Catholics tend to follow the herd mentality with obsequious deference to a pope who tells them how to do everything—from worshiping to what to believe to how to brush their teeth in the morning. Whatever the intentions of its adherents, the Catholic religion squelches human freedom. Therefore, it is dangerous.
CATHOLIC: Let me first address the idea that Catholic dogmas and beliefs are not based on reason. Just because a truth is beyond the capacity of human reason does not mean that it is contrary to reason. Catholic doctrine is made known to us by revelation and is beyond the capacity of human reason. That does not mean that it contradicts reason but rather that it transcends reason. You cannot use reason to prove that someone loves you; the truth of someone’s love transcends reason. That does not mean that love is somehow contrary to reason.
OBJECTOR: You just proved my point by saying that Catholic doctrines transcend reason. That is just a clever way to avoid admitting that they are not reasonable. By making Catholic doctrine seem above reason, the Catholic Church fosters superstition.
CATHOLIC: Actually, far from fostering superstition, the Church condemns it because it takes our attention away from the worship that we are to give to God alone.
OBJECTOR: Maybe the Catholic Church doesn’t intend to foster superstition, but it nonetheless does so by depending solely on baseless faith for assent to its dogmas. Superstition is a consequence of teachings not based on reason, even if it is an unintended one.
CATHOLIC: It might help to clarify the Catholic understanding of faith and reason. Catholics should not depend on baseless faith. The Church encourages the use of reason because reason and faith are not mutually exclusive, as people sometimes assume, but rather complement one another. Pope John Paul II states this in his encyclical letter Fides et Ratio. Either reason or faith by itself is weakened by the absence of the other.
OBJECTOR: I agree that reason is important, but I don’t see how the Catholic Church can say its teachings are in accord with reason when, as you have stated, Catholic dogmas are beyond human reason.
CATHOLIC: The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that God gives us external evidence of revealed truth that accompanies the internal working of the Holy Spirit (CCC 156). To go back to the example of a human lover, even though the truth of a person’s love transcends reason, you can use your reason to look for signs that someone loves you. Such signs might include what he says to you and how willing he is to sacrifice for you. In the same way, God gives us external evidence of his revelation so that we can see that it is rational to believe it.
OBJECTOR: So you’re saying that the Catholic Church wants us to be reasonable, but it still squelches people’s freedom when it requires them to believe its teachings. Is that reasonable?
CATHOLIC: One who chooses to be Catholic should accept what the Church teaches, but this in no way hinders freedom. Does a teacher squelch freedom when he requires his students to believe that two plus two is four or that the earth is round? Of course not. He is trying to help his students arrive at truth.
OBJECTOR: Maybe it is possible to view the Catholic Church this way, but ultimately the hierarchy asks its members to accept its dogmas on faith, even if they do not understand them.
CATHOLIC: It is true that the Church teaches truths that are beyond the capacity of human reason and that do require faith. This faith, though, makes Catholics more free, not less, because both the intellect and the will participate in a higher level of reality than reason alone is capable of reaching. This perfects the intellect and the will and enables a person to experience a fuller realization of personal freedom (FR 13).
OBJECTOR: If the Catholic Church believes that faith makes its members more free, it should respect the freedom of people to disagree.
CATHOLIC: It does. The Church does not force anyone to believe what it teaches. In fact, the Church insists that faith is a free act, so nobody should be forced to believe something against his will (CCC 160).
OBJECTOR: I don’t understand how the Catholic Church can claim to be so committed to freedom when it tells its members how to live their lives. This definitely hinders freedom. A teacher might tell his students things he believes to be true, but he does not require his students to change the way they live.
CATHOLIC: I think that you and I have different ideas about what freedom is. Freedom is an inner disposition whereby one chooses a path out of one’s own will, not an imposed will. True freedom consists not in an abundance of choices but in the will’s ability to master its own acts. For example, an alcoholic is not free when he is given more choices of alcohol to choose from. His freedom is made greater by having his will master his acts. The Church’s moral guidelines are intended to strengthen the mastery of the will over its actions (CCC 1734), allowing a person’s will to choose a path rather than having outside forces dictate how he lives his life.
OBJECTOR: But when the Catholic Church tells its members what to do, an outside force is dictating how they are to live their lives.
CATHOLIC: Let me use a different analogy. A doctor is not hindering his patients’ freedom when he tells them how to live their lives. He is trying to free them from the effects of unhealthy practices. Just as a bad diet weakens the body, so sin weakens the will (CCC 1459). Because sin prevents us from having the fullness of life, the more we avoid sin, the freer we become. True freedom is being able to live life fully.
Why is this so? In part because a person using his will to master his acts is strengthened by progress in virtue, knowledge of what is good, and self-denial (CCC 1734). Sin lessens the ability of our wills to master our actions, but living in the way the Church calls us to strengthens us in virtue, knowledge of the good, and self-denial. This process begins to free the will from the effects of sin and increases the power of the will even more.
OBJECTOR: Even if I were to agree with that, it seems to me that Catholics care only about following the rules. I don’t think moral rules should be at the center of anyone’s life.
CATHOLIC: Unfortunately, some Catholics do seem to focus more on the rules than on the reasons for the rules. The Church teaches that its moral guidelines are not the purpose of life but a means to a loving relationship with God. Just as a person who diets without understanding the goal of a healthy life is missing the point, so also a Catholic who views the Church’s commands as mere tasks to be completed is missing the point of why the moral law exists in the first place.
Nevertheless, without moral guidelines, we would not be able to reach that end, so the moral guidelines are essential. A doctor tells patients to eat healthily not for the sake of eating healthily but to bring them to health. But without a healthy diet, the patient could not become healthy. In addition to strengthening the will, following the Church’s moral rules makes us freer because those rules lead us to God, the source of all true freedom. To be open to God is to be truly free.
OBJECTOR: It does seem that we have different views of freedom. I still think that true freedom means being unfettered by external rules. Even though you try to paint the Catholic Church as respecting human freedom, I think it
would do better to leave off espousing moral guidelines altogether.CATHOLIC: I hope you will consider the reasons and analogies I have offered. I believe that you will find the Catholic notion of freedom to be more compatible with what is good for human beings—because it is based on reason.
This will take a while, but if you are interested, I encourage you to read the papal encyclical Fides Et Ratio:
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 10 2009,20:50) Hi CA,
Insecure folks love the certainty rules seem to offer.
Faith has to be a little braver.
I'll tell you what is “brave”…having such enormous blind faith that you believe something in spite of the fact that all of the evidence points to the contrary. Should we say “brave” or “scary”?Hi CA,
The evidence we can see from the fruits is that catholicism has no place in God's ways.
Would you prefer history as proof?Back tonight to dig deeper and finish reading…..taking the boy to football practice. Thanks, CA!! Can't wait to respond….
Love,
MandyQuote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 11 2009,12:18) Back tonight to dig deeper and finish reading…..taking the boy to football practice. Thanks, CA!! Can't wait to respond…. Love,
Mandy
Mandy,I hope all is well. I'm looking forward to picking this back up with you sometime.
Take care of yourself,
Chad
Hi Not3,
Let me first say that I'm really enjoying our little chat.
Quote
Quote
Eating meat on Friday has always been a pastoral provision and not infallible Dogma. It would fall in the category of married priests. In the Latin West they usually don't allow it. In the East we do.Okay, gotcha. But you must understand that for those of us who do not have the indoctrination of the Catholic church, all of these “rules” run into one another.
Well, at the end of the day it only really matters to Catholics anyway. Non-Catholics are free to not give a rat's flying rear end. (Can I say rear end?…Just kidding
) We understand the difference.Quote
And since when should a pastor determine what his people eat (and when)? Curious….It's not about determining what people eat. It's about a corporate fast. We fast on the day we commemorate the Lord's suffering and crucifixion. We do this tiny little act compared to His great act so that we can meditate upon what He did and ask Him for the grace to carry our own crosses and follow after Him. It's really a wonderfully beautiful thing. And for us this burden is light. Which reminds me…it goes without saying that there is provision made for those who have illnesses that would make such fasting harmful. Love is the rule.
Quote
As far as, “Infallible Dogma” – I haven't a clue? Are we not all humans and our very nature indicative of failings?Yes. WE are as individual humans. But you can't point to the body of Catholic belief and point to any one man, but Jesus Christ. Just as the Holy Spirit preserved the sinful apostles from error when they penned Scripture, so the apostles and their successors teaching in unison are preserved from error when they TEACH the faith. I find it wildly unreasonable to think that God would go to the trouble of preserving an infallible written book and then not provide for an infallible interpretation and teaching of that book. I mean, what would be the point?
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Thank you for this – music to my ears!Your welcome. To mine as well. God isn't just waiting to zap us for making the wrong guess. He wants sincerity and truth from us. He wants us to SEEK Him. I think He's big enough to take care of the rest. I know He has for me. And He continues to. We Catholics believe that conversion is a life long process. That doesn't sit well with Fundamentalists who have to have everything together so THEY can minister to YOU. But I can say with a good Catholic, St. Paul, “not that I have already attained or have been made perfect…but this one thing I do…”
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I have to say though, you are the only Catholic I have ever talked with that would say such a thing. Most believe that if you are not a part of the ONLY Church – you are lost.I won't deny that there have been Traditionalist Catholics who have erred on that side of things. But I think it is the general consensus among Catholic theologians that ignorance is invincible when it is truly ignorant. How can you be truly guilty of a sin you don't know IS sin? That is not to say that the sin cannot have negative consequences by it's nature. It is just to ask how the person could be justly punished for it.
As to “no salvation outside the church”, this statement is expounded and clearly defined by the Church. It would make this post way too long. But at the risk of over-simplifying things…we believe that all graces that anyone receives come through and by virtue of the Church.
I am confident that there are and will be many folks in eternal life who never darkened the doors of a Catholic church. God is rich in mercy.
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Perhaps you are humoring me? Do you believe, for instance, that Protestants are saved even if they do not join the Catholic church?No. I'm really being serious. In fact, I think that so many Protestants in the US hate what they perceive the CC to be, but are so ignorant that God will show them mercy because of their ignorance and unbelief. But I have to think that there is a reason that God is leading you out of ignorance. I think the reason He lead me out of my ignorance regarding the Church is that I personally needed the graces of the sacraments of the Church to be saved. I was a slave to my sin. When my spiritual father laid his hands on my to give me absolution after my first confession, the power of God shot from the top of my head to the soles of my feet. A HUGE burden lifted. I believe that I passed from death to life. And my evil impulses and thoughts of despair fled from me.
But I do think that there are many Protestants who are men and women of integrity and live lives of perfect contrition and repentance and holiness and God will give them grace in their dying hour and in addition to all of this, show them mercy for their rejection of the Church due to their ignorance and unbelief. But for someone to “count on” such an experience would seem to me to imply that ignorance is not there…only unbelief. I don't think it pays in the end to be stubborn with God, but how can we be in danger when we seek to be pliable in His hands?
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I'm not sure how I feel about this, to be honest. Paul admonishes us to grow in our depth of insight. Jesus encourages us to “know” God and himself. The revelations of the Catholic church are set, as you say.We believe that Dogma develops. But, yes, once the Holy Spirit has led us corporately into the understanding of truth then all is settled and we can all be at peace on that point. This of course doesn't even touch on the issue of “knowing” God. But it does make way for it. Let me explain:
When I was a Pentecostal/Protestant I was SO BUSY trying to assure that what I believed was accurate that my spiritual life had less time for prayer and communion with God. Especially compared to what I have now that all is at peace. I am free to commune with God and grow in my relationship with Him without the encumberance of my doubts and strivings about “being right” in my theology about God. Now I can just get to know Him. Prayer is HUGE to all devout Catholics.
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Have you ever believed something so strongly and then changed your mind? Oh ya, you have! Me, too. My point is that perhaps the church got it wrong?If the church “got it wrong”, then it sure seems like God chose a method that was destined for failure. You could say, well some guy over in his prayer closet did get it right while the Church got it wrong. If that was ever the case, then Christianity is a religion for God's favorites and not for everyone. Because I've got to tell you, reality doesn't bear out that we all can pray and hear God perfectly and all get it right. I didn't. You didn't. And if these other cats are honest, they'll admit that they didn't.
Jesus promised to build only one thing and that was His church. And so if that failed, then what was God doing anyway?
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Just the mere fact that they are set and not changing come hell-or-high-water isn't comforting to me.Well it sure is comforting to me. It means that God loves me too much to put me in a position that it is easy to get it wrong.
I'm not a sadist. I don't enjoy having to spend my life scrambling to make sure I believe all of the right things about God so I can get on with this inner desire to know Him. And I'm so thankful to find that He didn't make the world that way.
Did you ever wonder why God made the world and reality the way He did? Did you ever wo
nder why we can't just speak into the sky, ask any question we want, and receive the answer audibly? Well I sure have. I've even prayed about it and asked God why too. Do you know what my answer was? He showed me the Catholic Church. He showed me that I didn't have to fight and search with limited information to go on and assemble the entire body of Christian thought that would satisfy all of my questions. Jesus came and left a Church behind that has stood the test of time and will stand to the end of time.Quote
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How do we check anything? We have to use God-given reason. That's the best we can do.This answer doesn't work for me. Frankly, I'm surprised it is working for you? You – who wants to know the absolute truth. And you – who believes there has to be ONE RIGHT WAY! When I ask how can we check to know which way is right? Or how can we check the sources that were handed down so many years ago? Your answer is faith and reason. You'll have to forgive me if I think your answer is weak.
I can't pretend to know what you think when I say that. But I do admit that I am a weak communicator. I'll post a separate reply dealing directly with this.
But let me just say this. When I say reason, I am saying that the mountain of verifiable proofs for the veracity of the Catholic faith is REASONABLE to me and anyone with the gift of reason.
Did you understand this to be my answer?
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Your honestly is so damn refreshing!Well, I really don't have anything to prove. I don't have any agendas other than to be real with you and communicate honestly. That's why I don't shy away from addressing the scandalous actions of various leaders and members of the Church throughout history. I knew about that going into this. It was actually more of a proof to me that I found the right thing, rather than something that scared me off. Why? Because Jesus prepared us all for what would happen. And the miracle that some of those scoundrels were in a seat of power but were powerless to teach false doctrine is uncanny. I mean it really is amazing to me…given human nature.
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But this is my point exactly – how can you even trust the written history that you are checking against? You cannot. You have faith that they copied everything correctly – that there were no hidden agenda's going on – that everyone was honest – that certain things went uncorrupted. That's a lot of faith, bro.Actually I don't think it takes all that much faith. I mean, everything we assume about the world comes from weaker sources than what is provided by the Catholic church. And the letters and documents are spread across the world. Investigative journalists have much less to go on (understatement there) than we do in the deposit of faith. The body of evidence is actually overwhelming me just thinking about it. I keep thinking of more things to add to the pile.
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And it's needed, because there is no way to know for sure.Well with that criteria, then there is no way to know ANYTHING for sure. But let's just say you can be as sure as is humanly possible. I mean, think about it, I don't KNOW that my wife isn't stepping out on me. But I'm SURE she's not. Do you see what I mean?
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However, oral traditions would rely heavily on memory.Until they are written down. Which they constantly were…and then copied and disseminated throughout the world. The game of telephone would have gone in different directions in different cultural linguistic regions of the world. But they didn't.
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Even a “also”, or “the”, or “is” would be enough to send bible readers into all sorts of directions and beliefs. Sound familiar?Yes, but as I just said, this would be easy to isolate and identify given the translations in various vernacular languages and dissemination throughout the world. We see this even in the ancient liturgies.
Which reminds me…don't you think it is interesting that ALL of the apostolic churches having a fountain of apostolic succession (Catholics, Orthodox, Coptic, Ethiopic, Thomas Christian of India, etc.) believe 99.9% the same thing and only vary on semantics for the other .1%?
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But I know in our own family that there are stories that have been handed down, and depending on who or which family is re-telling the story – some elements change or are left out entirely.This is why we insist on seeing the Tradition consistently in the fathers writings to consider it Sacred Tradition.
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 09 2009,18:04) Catholic Christian – May I ask you a question?
i.e., Catholic Christian – May I set up a trap for you?Quote (t8 @ Sep. 20 2009,19:07) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 09 2009,18:04) Catholic Christian – May I ask you a question?
i.e., Catholic Christian – May I set up a trap for you?
O…I see…you feel trapped when you get asked questions you don't have a good answer for.Thanks for that. It taught me a lot about you.
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