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Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 26 2010,15:32) Hi B,
People are not IN THE FLESH.
Hi N,What is your point? What are you talking about? Would you care to engage in a meaningful conversation?
barley
I understand that we use other sources to better grasp the meaning spoken of in God's Word,but the Word itself is the final authority to me.Lexicons and Thesauraces give some help in understanding at times,but the Word truly needs no help in any language.We do not need to be informed in Greek,or Aramaic,or Hebrew to comprehend what the Word of God says!!
When I say there is but one God(the Father),and anyone else has been given of His power,word…. and is His servant,chosen one…I do not need Greek knowledge to understand what the bible says!It is clear(if we only have the humility,and love of God and His Word to accept it)!!In 1 Tim.Paul says”let God be true and every man be found a liar.”
I truly believe we,as brothers,spend way to much time trying to prove our point of view,rather than examining ourselves(me included) and the beliefs we've held dear to be sure they agree with God's own Word!!We put up walls,and get defensive many times rather than look in the mirror and say”Am I doing what God says to do?!Am I teaching the truth to these posters on here who are my brethren because my soul(as well as their's)is at stake by the words I type?!Do I have love in my heart toward someone who disagrees with me,or am I just trying to prove a point no matter what?!Am I on here trying to follow the greatest commandment,or just to make a statement?!
According to the book of James,we who teach and interpret God's Word will be held to a”stricter standard”when judgement comes.Can we afford to let pride(a sin),bias,or tradition keep us from the love and glory of our Father?!MAY IT NEVER BE!!
His will be done(not ours)!His Word be obeyed/followed(not ours)!So that God through His son will welcome us all into His waiting,loving arms,and say”Well done good and faithful servant.Enter into the joy of your Lord”.Let us be brothers….NOT advrsaries!!
Hi The One,
Psalm 12:6-7 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Thou shall keep them, O LORD(YHVH), thou shall preserve them(in The AKJV Bible) from this generation forever.
Isaiah 28:11 For with stammering lips “and another tongue” (That is: in English) will “HE” speak to this people.Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Nick Hassan @ July 25 2010,03:52) Hi M,
What if your dictionaries do not align with scripture?
“Holy, Holy Holy is the Lord of Hosts”Is 6.3 etc
Nick,If a dictionary does not agree with the usage of a word in scripture then 1) The English language has changed, 2) The translator misused a word from the English language, 3) The translator mistranslated the passage, and/or 4) The particular dictionary entry is flawed.
Someone may come up with other reasons.
Your fellow student,
Kerwin
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 27 2010,12:27) Hi B,
Go back to your post and you will understand.
Nick,I can see that it is time for me to teach some more.
People do not understand the expression, “thorn in the flesh”.
This is not a literal expression. It is a figure of speech. God uses figures of speech to emphasize truths that need emphasizing.
Figures of speech are not true to fact, but are true to the truth God wants learned.
Jesus Christ said of Herod, “Go tell that fox….” Is Herod literally a fox? No. But Jesus Christ is teaching that Herod was sly as a fox.
Look at Psalm 18: God is my rock , God is my high tower, God is my buckler. God is my horn of salvation.
Is God literally a rock? If so where is this rock? Is it the rock of Gibraltar? It is a rock in Jerusalem? Is it a rock at the bottom of the ocean? Maybe this rock was accidentally mixed in with some concrete and now God is part of some highway in Kansas?
These are figures of speech used by God to emphasize certain truths. The particular figure of speech used in Psalm 18:2 is the figure of speech, condescencio. God uses words that condescend down to the level of man to describe himself.
Nick, you have a lot going for you.
How about Isaiah 11:1? Is Jesus Christ literally a branch, a stick of wood? Is Jesse literally the stem out of which the stick Jesus grew out of?
Obviously not. Therefore figures of speech must be recognized for what they are, and we must learn to recognize them when we read them in the scriptures.
I think that this will help the readers here.
Oatmeal
Hi B,
Do you have the anointing and the authority to declare these things?How can you be so sure about this THORN IN THE FLESH?
Hi B,
You state
” Paul's thorn in the flesh is people, who obstructed Paul's ministry”Do you have any real evidence or is this just your opinion??
Quote (The One @ July 27 2010,16:30) I understand that we use other sources to better grasp the meaning spoken of in God's Word,but the Word itself is the final authority to me.Lexicons and Thesauraces give some help in understanding at times,but the Word truly needs no help in any language.We do not need to be informed in Greek,or Aramaic,or Hebrew to comprehend what the Word of God says!! When I say there is but one God(the Father),and anyone else has been given of His power,word…. and is His servant,chosen one…I do not need Greek knowledge to understand what the bible says!It is clear(if we only have the humility,and love of God and His Word to accept it)!!In 1 Tim.Paul says”let God be true and every man be found a liar.”
I truly believe we,as brothers,spend way to much time trying to prove our point of view,rather than examining ourselves(me included) and the beliefs we've held dear to be sure they agree with God's own Word!!We put up walls,and get defensive many times rather than look in the mirror and say”Am I doing what God says to do?!Am I teaching the truth to these posters on here who are my brethren because my soul(as well as their's)is at stake by the words I type?!Do I have love in my heart toward someone who disagrees with me,or am I just trying to prove a point no matter what?!Am I on here trying to follow the greatest commandment,or just to make a statement?!
According to the book of James,we who teach and interpret God's Word will be held to a”stricter standard”when judgement comes.Can we afford to let pride(a sin),bias,or tradition keep us from the love and glory of our Father?!MAY IT NEVER BE!!
His will be done(not ours)!His Word be obeyed/followed(not ours)!So that God through His son will welcome us all into His waiting,loving arms,and say”Well done good and faithful servant.Enter into the joy of your Lord”.Let us be brothers….NOT advrsaries!!
Isa 9:6 Unto you a /child is born, a son Given and his name shall be called wonderful counselor, prince of peace, mighty God, everlasting father.
Is the word “name” simply identifying that this child “is” the mighty God ect?
If you said yes you are wrong. The word “name” is the Hebrew word “shem” which means Character. In other words this i not identifying Christ as th mighty God it is saying he will have the character of the mighty God.
This is a big deal in the wat in which you view Christ as God or man.None of this would you kow from reading the English versions.
I am not surprised that no one else has posted any principles that they use. I think probably some have not the education to really interpret scripture but I know others do not want to follow any principles other then their own opinion. I guess they get their opinions verified by pimples forming on their knees or something. Some will say they are “led by the Spirit”. that is all fine and good as long as your leading is from God and not their own imaginations. That is why we have a more sure wod of prophecy.
Martain,
I saw no real reason to do so as I tend to agree with yours for the most part. I could point out that the Jews have a mystic point of view which means that context is important for the primary point but not so important for the hidden meaning or meanings.
Take the fact that the Messiah was born to a virgin which seems according to context to speak of events that occured long before Jesus was born but in a hidden message speak of Jesus being born to Mary.
These hidden messages are much easier to read in hind sight.
Your fellow student,
Kerwin
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 28 2010,14:54) Hi B,
Do you have the anointing and the authority to declare these things?How can you be so sure about this THORN IN THE FLESH?
Nick,
Yes.
That is what the scriptures teach.
b
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 28 2010,14:59) Hi B,
You state
” Paul's thorn in the flesh is people, who obstructed Paul's ministry”Do you have any real evidence or is this just your opinion??
Nick,
Yes, no.
b
Quote (martian @ July 29 2010,11:34) I am not surprised that no one else has posted any principles that they use. I think probably some have not the education to really interpret scripture but I know others do not want to follow any principles other then their own opinion. I guess they get their opinions verified by pimples forming on their knees or something. Some will say they are “led by the Spirit”. that is all fine and good as long as your leading is from God and not their own imaginations. That is why we have a more sure wod of prophecy.
Martian,Since you seem to want more than l gave, I will do so.
Couple more,
Since the scriptures was written down by people living in a different culture than ours. Namely, theirs is an Eastern culture, ours a Western culture. Some elusive passages may be explained by finding out what is being said from within their culture. Ie, their wedding customs differ from ours. When Jesus Christ said of his disciples, “Ye are the salt of the earth.” It is most interesting to find out what salt was used for in that culture. There are many many more.
There are several great books that can help out,One author is Freeman.
Another thing that must be understood is figures of speech. There are over 200 varieties of figures of speech that have been used in older cultures, such as the Hebrew and Greek. Most of them have been used in scripture. Some of these figures have about 40 varieties within one figure.
Three that are simple to note are
1.Simile – using the word like or as to express an similarity. Ie, the kingdom of heaven is like. It does not say it equals but it says it is like.
2. Metaphor – expressing a resemblance by representation. One of the parables, the sower went out to sow. Found in Matthew 13:24-30. What is the meaning of the parable? Does anyone want to guess, or are we willing to go to the scriptures for answer? The explanation of the parable in Matthew 13:36-43. The sower of the good seed is the son of man. The field is the world, etc.
3. Hypocatastasis – a comparison by implication. JC said of Herod, Go tell that fox. JC was implying that Herod was sly as a fox. Luke 13:32.
Another figure of speech is the parable.It is an extended simile. Not just a phrase, but a whole story.
Well there are plenty more.
barley.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 30 2010,10:42) Hi B,
Where do the scriptures teach that Paul's thorn in the flesh was other people?
Hi Nick,Here's The Apostle Paul's (Shaool) 'thorn in the flesh'…
2Cor.12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations,
there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to
buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (barley @ July 30 2010,10:30) Quote (martian @ July 29 2010,11:34) I am not surprised that no one else has posted any principles that they use. I think probably some have not the education to really interpret scripture but I know others do not want to follow any principles other then their own opinion. I guess they get their opinions verified by pimples forming on their knees or something. Some will say they are “led by the Spirit”. that is all fine and good as long as your leading is from God and not their own imaginations. That is why we have a more sure wod of prophecy.
Martian,Since you seem to want more than l gave, I will do so.
Couple more,
Since the scriptures was written down by people living in a different culture than ours. Namely, theirs is an Eastern culture, ours a Western culture. Some elusive passages may be explained by finding out what is being said from within their culture. Ie, their wedding customs differ from ours. When Jesus Christ said of his disciples, “Ye are the salt of the earth.” It is most interesting to find out what salt was used for in that culture. There are many many more.
There are several great books that can help out,One author is Freeman.
Another thing that must be understood is figures of speech. There are over 200 varieties of figures of speech that have been used in older cultures, such as the Hebrew and Greek. Most of them have been used in scripture. Some of these figures have about 40 varieties within one figure.
Three that are simple to note are
1.Simile – using the word like or as to express an similarity. Ie, the kingdom of heaven is like. It does not say it equals but it says it is like.
2. Metaphor – expressing a resemblance by representation. One of the parables, the sower went out to sow. Found in Matthew 13:24-30. What is the meaning of the parable? Does anyone want to guess, or are we willing to go to the scriptures for answer? The explanation of the parable in Matthew 13:36-43. The sower of the good seed is the son of man. The field is the world, etc.
3. Hypocatastasis – a comparison by implication. JC said of Herod, Go tell that fox. JC was implying that Herod was sly as a fox. Luke 13:32.
Another figure of speech is the parable.It is an extended simile. Not just a phrase, but a whole story.
Well there are plenty more.
barley.
I agree with you completely. I might also suggest Jeff Benner and his Ancient Hebrew Research Center. I have found his explaination of Hebrew culture very easy to understand.Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 30 2010,10:42) Hi B,
Where do the scriptures teach that Paul's thorn in the flesh was other people?nick,
God is the author of the entire word of God. God knows what He is talking about. When God uses a word or a phrase in His word, the meaning of it generally is consistent throughout the rest of the scriptures. Sometimes, He may redefine a word. If we look at the first time a word is used in the scripture, that first usage pretty much sets the foundation of its meaning throughout the rest of scripture. That is why, if the scripture does not explain something after it speaks on a subject, then we must look at previous passages to find our answer. This is the case with the phrase, “thorn is the flesh”. Similar enough phrases are used in the OT, and the context tells us that the phrase is referring to unbelievers.
So then, Paul's thorn in the flesh. II Corinthians 12:7-10. Are there other similar phrases that help define how the scripture uses it, and how the scripture intends it to be understood as? Yes. Look at Numbers 33:55 and Joshua 23:13. The usage of thorns in their side or pricks in their eyes is referring to people, specifically to unbelievers. See II Corinthians 11:24-26. Who was it that beat up Paul? People. Who was putting Paul in peril? People. Let's apply the “in the verse” principle to II Corinthians 12:7. Was it a messenger from God? No, it was a messenger from Satan. Satan worked hard to get people to obstruct Paul's ministry. Paul's thorn in the flesh is people, who obstructed Paul's ministry.
nick, look up Numbers and Joshua, the phrases are similar, the teaching is that God wants Israel to drive out the wrongful inhabitants of the promised land. These people were unbelievers. If Israel did not drive them out these unbelievers would be as, “pricks in your eyes” and “thorns in your sides”. If a ##### (evidently, there is some censorship thing that over rode the word “aprick” thinking evil of a word used in the scripture) is in you eye is it in your flesh? If a thorn is in your side, is it in your flesh? The key is that these unbelievers would be LIKE thorns in your flesh.
b
Quote (martian @ July 30 2010,11:23) Quote (barley @ July 30 2010,10:30) Quote (martian @ July 29 2010,11:34) I am not surprised that no one else has posted any principles that they use. I think probably some have not the education to really interpret scripture but I know others do not want to follow any principles other then their own opinion. I guess they get their opinions verified by pimples forming on their knees or something. Some will say they are “led by the Spirit”. that is all fine and good as long as your leading is from God and not their own imaginations. That is why we have a more sure wod of prophecy.
Martian,Since you seem to want more than l gave, I will do so.
Couple more,
Since the scriptures was written down by people living in a different culture than ours. Namely, theirs is an Eastern culture, ours a Western culture. Some elusive passages may be explained by finding out what is being said from within their culture. Ie, their wedding customs differ from ours. When Jesus Christ said of his disciples, “Ye are the salt of the earth.” It is most interesting to find out what salt was used for in that culture. There are many many more.
There are several great books that can help out,One author is Freeman.
Another thing that must be understood is figures of speech. There are over 200 varieties of figures of speech that have been used in older cultures, such as the Hebrew and Greek. Most of them have been used in scripture. Some of these figures have about 40 varieties within one figure.
Three that are simple to note are
1.Simile – using the word like or as to express an similarity. Ie, the kingdom of heaven is like. It does not say it equals but it says it is like.
2. Metaphor – expressing a resemblance by representation. One of the parables, the sower went out to sow. Found in Matthew 13:24-30. What is the meaning of the parable? Does anyone want to guess, or are we willing to go to the scriptures for answer? The explanation of the parable in Matthew 13:36-43. The sower of the good seed is the son of man. The field is the world, etc.
3. Hypocatastasis – a comparison by implication. JC said of Herod, Go tell that fox. JC was implying that Herod was sly as a fox. Luke 13:32.
Another figure of speech is the parable.It is an extended simile. Not just a phrase, but a whole story.
Well there are plenty more.
barley.
I agree with you completely. I might also suggest Jeff Benner and his Ancient Hebrew Research Center. I have found his explaination of Hebrew culture very easy to understand.
Martian,I wanted to elaborate on the study of Eastern culture. Just like our Western culture is not perfect in relationship to scripture, the Eastern culture did not necessarily reflect God's will. When their culture lined up with scripture, great. But Eastern culture has its problems as well. Basically, being Eastern culture does not make Eastern culture, “gospel”. But learning about the culture helps us understand scripture more clearly
barley
Quote (barley @ July 30 2010,21:28) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 30 2010,10:42) Hi B,
Where do the scriptures teach that Paul's thorn in the flesh was other people?nick,
God is the author of the entire word of God. God knows what He is talking about. When God uses a word or a phrase in His word, the meaning of it generally is consistent throughout the rest of the scriptures. Sometimes, He may redefine a word. If we look at the first time a word is used in the scripture, that first usage pretty much sets the foundation of its meaning throughout the rest of scripture. That is why, if the scripture does not explain something after it speaks on a subject, then we must look at previous passages to find our answer. This is the case with the phrase, “thorn is the flesh”. Similar enough phrases are used in the OT, and the context tells us that the phrase is referring to unbelievers.
So then, Paul's thorn in the flesh. II Corinthians 12:7-10. Are there other similar phrases that help define how the scripture uses it, and how the scripture intends it to be understood as? Yes. Look at Numbers 33:55 and Joshua 23:13. The usage of thorns in their side or pricks in their eyes is referring to people, specifically to unbelievers. See II Corinthians 11:24-26. Who was it that beat up Paul? People. Who was putting Paul in peril? People. Let's apply the “in the verse” principle to II Corinthians 12:7. Was it a messenger from God? No, it was a messenger from Satan. Satan worked hard to get people to obstruct Paul's ministry. Paul's thorn in the flesh is people, who obstructed Paul's ministry.
nick, look up Numbers and Joshua, the phrases are similar, the teaching is that God wants Israel to drive out the wrongful inhabitants of the promised land. These people were unbelievers. If Israel did not drive them out these unbelievers would be as, “pricks in your eyes” and “thorns in your sides”. If a ##### (evidently, there is some censorship thing that over rode the word “aprick” thinking evil of a word used in the scripture) is in you eye is it in your flesh? If a thorn is in your side, is it in your flesh? The key is that these unbelievers would be LIKE thorns in your flesh.
b
Hi Barley,I liked what you said about a word's first usage in the Bible.
I'd like you to look at the first usage of two words in two verses and tell me how “you” would translate them, ok?
Gen 1:2 RuachElohim
Gen 2:4 YHVHElohimPlease translate them consistently. Only the words and not the rest of the sentences.
We know Elohim = God; Ruach = Spirit; YHVH = YHVH
So would you translate them as:
Spirit of God and YHVH of Elohim OR
God's Spirit and God's YHVHDavid
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