Homosexuality

[kejonn]

Just fessin' up . I know what I do here is unwelcome, but I feel obligated to stand up for God when I feel He is being spoken poorly of. I think the OT does just that. Everytime I read Deu 28:63, I just don't know how others can shut down reason and morality and say they want to believe the beneficient Maker of all would say He takes pleasure in destroying people.

[TimothyVI]

It seems as though the people that see no wrong in those things are not related to Adam and Eve. They obviously never inherited the knowledge gained from eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They can't see the difference.

Tim

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 19 2008,02:59)

cato Yes. And it is your right to believe that way. But the Bible is a gathering of 66 books with thousands of scriptures that “Christians” believe in. Do they all agree? No. Do all Deist agree? No. Basically this is the difference between a “believer” and an “unbeliever”. Most of your comment is summed up like this, “I Don't Believe”. So you disagree with millions and millions of believers from the past to the present including Jesus. Many have died for their faith which is based in the scriptures, for without the scriptures there would be no knowledge of the God of the OT or the NT.

Quote (Cato @ April 19 2008,06:05)

I noticed that you never answered my points on whether or not you agree or disagree that the Almighty did those things that I quoted in the OT. In that you are like Nick.

If you know anything about me, I am not at all like NH, and yes I did answer your question, maybe not in the way you would like to hear. This is what I said…

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 19 2008,02:59)

But the Bible is a gathering of 66 books with thousands of scriptures that “Christians” believe in. And… What you are saying is that you believe the Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omnipotent God cannot do all the things mentioned in the Bible. What I am saying is I believe he can.

So I will clarify. I believe that all scripture is inspired by God. I believe everything that the Bible says, OT and NT. This is what makes me what Christians call a believer.

It is your right not to believe that the Big 3 Os God cannot do these things, but I not only believe he can but that he did.

Quote (Cato @ April 19 2008,06:05)

The difference between us is that I do not base a religious dogma on such works or state that these books are God's word or will and thus justify all my actions upon

.

Again, that is your right, but what is your purpose in criticizing my faith and the Bible. I don’t spend my time going after a Deist belief, or the writings they place their faith in. You cannot prove what is in the Bible is false no more than I can prove it true.

And so it is Faith. You have yours and I have mine. Mine is based on a personal relationship with God by his Spirit which opens scriptures about him to me.

Quote (Cato @ April 19 2008,06:05)

In this the fundamentalist is the same for all the major religions, our holy text, state the truth.

 

Amen. But if you think that your belief system is solely the creation of your own thoughts and reason, then you are kidding yourself. You are saying “Amen” to something you read or heard somewhere.

Quote (Cato @ April 19 2008,06:05)

Alas, I must look at everything with the lens of reason and conscience and retain doubts about what I think I know, for I am given no absolutes other then God's existence and creation.

Really? Is God an absolute? How can you prove this? Yes your lens of reason is based on something you heard, read or believed and accepted as truth. Can you prove that your borrowed truth is the only truth?

Quote (Cato @ April 19 2008,06:05)

I can take both truth and fable from the Bible as I can view it as inspired, but often flawed for I think it is the work of men rather then God.

Yes, you have told us you do not believe in the scriptures as being inspired. But, I do have the right to believe that they are, right?

Quote (Cato @ April 19 2008,06:05)

If you think it is God's word then you must accept it all, for if one part is wrong, it destroys the ideal of biblical infallibility.

This is a very good point and I agree. So then since you believe it is not God’s word then you must not believe in these,

Luke 10:27
And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

1 John 4:8
He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

1 John 4:16
And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

It is you who has trouble believing the scriptures, not me.

Quote (Cato @ April 19 2008,06:05)

Beliefs, I have them, but you discard those points.

Yes, I discard your points that disagree with my beliefs. Isn’t this what you do?

Quote (Cato @ April 19 2008,06:05)

God is perfection and outside of human understanding.  His presence and benificience is shown in creation and the order thereof.

I am glad you agree that his perfection is outside our understanding. But how come you go about to explain what his perfection is then? Can you accept that maybe there are a lot of things we don’t understand about him?

Quote (Cato @ April 19 2008,06:05)

As for the millions upon millions of believers, who both died and killed for, their faith; evidently the reliance on dogma over reason seemed enough to put them at each other throats over the years.  The Crusades against the sons  of Islam (who have many millions of believers of their own), the Thirty years war, the Inquistion, the Spanish Conquest and conversion of the New World, Catholic league vs the Huguenots, the list is a lengthy one.  They all seemed to think that scripture justified their particular dogma and that God blessed their endeavors. That is the result of following written texts as if they were God's comman d, if they were in truth, I think they would be clearer and less subject to dispute and misunderstanding.

For someone who claims that God’s perfection goes outside of our understanding, you sure seem to have all the answers. I think it is more like, because the scriptures are the truth there is dispute and misunderstandings. I cannot answer for what others do in the name of God. Your response is just another attempt to cast a dark shadow on the scriptures which is your right, But, again you can not prove or disprove what I believe no more than I can prove or disprove yours. But you see, I’m not out to attack your faith or the history of it.

Blessings!

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 19 2008,08:41)

If you know anything about me, I am not at all like NH

I vouch for ya brother, Keith!

You and Nick are not much a like at all in the way you approach posts and answer them.

I prefer your style. It encourages bible study and conversation. It doesn't just produce attacks and defensive feedback.

I usually learn quite a bit from the dialog you have with others.

[kejonn]

Yes, I agree. I have much respect for WJ even if we see many more things differently than even before .

[Cato]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 19 2008,08:41)

WorshippingJesus,April wrote: For someone who claims that God’s perfection goes outside of our understanding, you sure seem to have all the answers. I think it is more like, because the scriptures are the truth there is dispute and misunderstandings. I cannot answer for what others do in the name of God. Your response is just another attempt to cast a dark shadow on the scriptures which is your right, But, again you can not prove or disprove what I believe no more than I can prove or disprove yours. But you see, I’m not out to attack your faith or the history of it. Blessings!

When have I claimed to know the truth?  I have no ultimate source for such like you evidently have.  So you say truth is more likely to cause misunderstanding, and divine truth at that, it would seem to me that it should be the opposite.

You don't answer for what others do in God's name, well then why bring up the millions upon millions of past “believers” that I evidently disagreed with, when they, can't even agree among themselves.

Mine is another attempt to question what I think makes God into something less then all knowing, all powerful and all loving.  I didn't know this cast a dark shadow.

Proof? I ask whether you think God makes mistakes, authorizes curses, the killing of babies, etc.,as described in the OT.  You don't say yes or no, but say you believe everything in the Bible so I infer yes.  I now ask how can an all powerful, all knowing being make a mistake or have regrets?  It is a paradox.

Attack your faith, so asking questions or pointing out valid history, is now an attack?  This is a site to ask about Christianity is it not?  Christians have many views, many believers here call the JWs a cult, the Catholic Church is the Whore, all other major religions are wrong, yet I am the one indicted for attacking faith?

[942767]

Quote (kejonn @ April 19 2008,07:15)

Just fessin' up . I know what I do here is unwelcome, but I feel obligated to stand up for God when I feel He is being spoken poorly of. I think the OT does just that. Everytime I read Deu 28:63, I just don't know how others can shut down reason and morality and say they want to believe the beneficient Maker of all would say He takes pleasure in destroying people.

Hi KJ:

And so God actually had to do this through the Babylonian captivity. And can you tell me what was his purpose in allowing this to happen?

[Not3in1]

94,
Allowing it to happen, or causing it to happen?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 19 2008,08:41)

For someone who claims that God’s perfection goes outside of our understanding, you sure seem to have all the answers. I think it is more like, because the scriptures are the truth there is dispute and misunderstandings. I cannot answer for what others do in the name of God. Your response is just another attempt to cast a dark shadow on the scriptures which is your right, But, again you can not prove or disprove what I believe no more than I can prove or disprove yours. But you see, I’m not out to attack your faith or the history of it. Blessings!

Quote (Cato @ April 19 2008,14:15)

When have I claimed to know the truth?  I have no ultimate source for such like you evidently have.

Really? I am confused then. Because, if you believe something I would think you believe you have the truth. Then what is all the talk about God not being angry, wrathful, jealous, or regretful about?

You did say this didn’t you?…

Quote (Cato @ April 19 2008,00:04)

Those of us who hold that God is an unmanifest, being of omniscience, omnipotence and perfection are not the ones applying human attributes to the creator.  We do not see him as a “pansy or mushy” any more then we see him as angry, jealous, wrathful or regretful.  I don't believe God makes mistakes or has regrets like in Gen 6:6-7 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, “I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them.” I don't believe God negotiates and barters with men as in Gen 18: 26-32. I don't believe God manifested himself in physical form and wrestled with Jacob as in Gen 32:22-31, sounds like Heracles not God. It makes no sense that the Lord of the universe has a favorite race of people (who conviently happen to be the Bible writers). I don't believe God ordered the death of children and infants as in 1 Samuel 15:3. I think God set up a Universe of Law and in that law cause and effect is self evident.  I don't think God punishes evil so much as those who are purveyors of such, will bear the fruits of their own acts.  Good and evil return to us as every action has a reaction like in physics.  The concept of karma makes more sense in this regard then some infinite reward or punishment for finite circumstances.

That seems like a pretty big proclamation of what you hold as truth. So do you believe you have the truth in the above proclamation or are you open to the fact that just maybe God and his ways are past your finding out? Or do you believe something you are not sure of?

Quote (Cato @ April 19 2008,14:15)

So you say truth is more likely to cause misunderstanding, and divine truth at that, it would seem to me that it should be the opposite.

I base my statement on the scriptures. Jesus was the truth, and spoke the truth, yet many did not understand him and as history goes his word was fulfilled, because since he came he brought a sword and the world has never been the same. So here we are speaking of him 2000 years later. Wow, something to think about huh?

Quote (Cato @ April 19 2008,14:15)

You don't answer for what others do in God's name, well then why bring up the millions upon millions of past “believers” that I evidently disagreed with, when they, can't even agree among themselves.

My point was to show that there are millions of believers for centuries that disagree with you view, just as I am sure there is millions of non-believers that disagree with my view. But, you resorted to make a stereotype out of all believers, which is wrong just as it would be wrong for me to say that Deist all believe the same.

Quote (Cato @ April 19 2008,14:15)

Mine is another attempt to question what I think makes God into something less then all knowing, all powerful and all loving.  I didn't know this cast a dark shadow.

Your logic makes no sense to me Cato, simply because if you believe God is Omnipotent, and Omniscient and all loving, and that he created all things and set all things in motion, and then left his creation to its own demise without any divine intervention, then this would mean that God knew of all the suffering and pain and evils that would come because of his creation, which also would make God responsible for his action or inaction as the Creator. Then worse, God who is all loving has all power to stop the evil and does it not.

Can you tell me how God who is all loving and all knowing and all-powerful, could create all this and not be responsible or not take action?

Quote (Cato @ April 19 2008,14:15)

Proof? I ask whether you think God makes mistakes, authorizes curses, the killing of babies, etc.,as described in the OT.

 

No I don’t think he makes mistakes, but you must, because if you believe God is all loving and all-powerful and all knowing, then why doesn’t he stop the raping and murdering of the little children in the world today? It is his creation, right? Why doesn’t the all powerful and loving God stop all the hunger and disease in the earth?

I assume you don’t have an answer for this paradox. Could it be you do not fully understand his ways? Could it be that as high as the heavens are above the earth, so are his ways past our finding out?

Could it be that what is written in the scriptures about God is true?

Quote (Cato @ April 19 2008,14:15)

You don't say yes or no, but say you believe everything in the Bible so I infer yes.

I thought I was clear. Ok, Yes I believe the OT scriptures as written, all of it!   Blind faith?  You bet ya. Jesus believed them so do I.

Quote (Cato @ April 19 2008,14:15)

I now ask how can an all powerful, all knowing being make a mistake or have regrets?  It is a paradox.

Yes it is a paradox. So you tell me how your reasoning that God who is all powerful and all knowing just creates everything and then divorces himself from his creation and leaves it to its own demise, then sits in the heavens watching all the evils being committed in this world and does nothing about it, you tell me how that view makes God any less responsible or evil than the God of the OT that punished wickedness and sin.

Look around you! Should God say that he made a mistake? Should God have any regrets? One day he will put and end to all the evil, and he will be justified in all he does.

Quote (Cato @ April 19 2008,14:15)

Attack your faith, so asking questions or pointing out valid history, is now an attack?

Sorry, but I don’t see your bold criticism of the scriptures as asking questions. Seems you have all ready made your mind up about the scriptures and the Christian who believes in those scriptures as being true.

Quote (Cato @ April 19 2008,14:15)

This is a site to ask about Christianity is it not?  Christians have many views, many believers here call the JWs a cult, the Catholic Church is the Whore, all other major religions are wrong, yet I am the one indicted for attacking faith?

I didn’t see a single question in your above proclamation, and Deist also have many views. Yes, and JW’s believe that they are the only church. And I have never resorted to the Catholic Church as being the whore, for I believe that all dead religion is part of the whore.

As far as indicting you for attacking my faith, sorry, I was simply pointing out that I am not out to criticize Deism, or its history! You made a huge proclamation as to why you do not believe in the OT scriptures which is your right, but to me that is attacking my faith, no problem and no offence though, because I can handle it, and I am not afraid of the big questions, because I believe in a BIG GOD!

Blessings!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ April 19 2008,10:52)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 19 2008,08:41) If you know anything about me, I am not at all like NH I vouch for ya brother, Keith!   You and Nick are not much a like at all in the way you approach posts and answer them. I prefer your style.  It encourages bible study and conversation.  It doesn't  just produce attacks and defensive feedback. I usually learn quite a bit from the dialog you have with others.

not3

Thanks! Hope you are well!

Blessings!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (kejonn @ April 19 2008,12:18)

Yes, I agree. I have much respect for WJ even if we see many more things differently than even before .

kejonn

The respect is mutual.

Yes, I notice we are drifting much further apart in our beliefs!

I wish you the best though in your quest!

Some day you may come back home!  

Blessings!

[Stu]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 19 2008,19:39)

Quote (kejonn @ April 19 2008,12:18) Yes, I agree. I have much respect for WJ even if we see many more things differently than even before . kejonn The respect is mutual. Yes, I notice we are drifting much further apart in our beliefs! I wish you the best though in your quest! Some day you may come back home!   Blessings!

Or you might move out!?

Stuart

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Stu @ April 19 2008,19:42)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 19 2008,19:39) Quote (kejonn @ April 19 2008,12:18) Yes, I agree. I have much respect for WJ even if we see many more things differently than even before . kejonn The respect is mutual. Yes, I notice we are drifting much further apart in our beliefs! I wish you the best though in your quest! Some day you may come back home!   Blessings! Or you might move out!? Stuart

Stu

Looks like he already packed his bags and is gone!

But, like the Prodical Son, he may return some day!

[Stu]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 19 2008,19:46)

Quote (Stu @ April 19 2008,19:42) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 19 2008,19:39) Quote (kejonn @ April 19 2008,12:18) Yes, I agree. I have much respect for WJ even if we see many more things differently than even before . kejonn The respect is mutual. Yes, I notice we are drifting much further apart in our beliefs! I wish you the best though in your quest! Some day you may come back home!   Blessings! Or you might move out!? Stuart Stu Looks like he already packed his bags and is gone!   But, like the Prodical Son, he may return some day!

There's no chance you will pack your bags and hit the road with him?

Stuart

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Stu @ April 19 2008,23:03)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 19 2008,19:46) Quote (Stu @ April 19 2008,19:42) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 19 2008,19:39) Quote (kejonn @ April 19 2008,12:18) Yes, I agree. I have much respect for WJ even if we see many more things differently than even before . kejonn The respect is mutual. Yes, I notice we are drifting much further apart in our beliefs! I wish you the best though in your quest! Some day you may come back home!   Blessings! Or you might move out!? Stuart Stu Looks like he already packed his bags and is gone!   But, like the Prodical Son, he may return some day! There's no chance you will pack your bags and hit the road with him? Stuart

Stu

Nah. I am to old for such travels. You have heard the Ole saying…

“You can't teach an old dog new tricks”.

I will just stay at home and pray.

[942767]

Quote (Not3in1 @ April 19 2008,19:10)

94, Allowing it to happen, or causing it to happen?

Hi Mandy:

He allowed it to happen to accomplish his purposes. He could have stopped it. He allowed it to punish Israel for their disobedience with the ultimate purpose being that they would repent and obey His commandments so that He could bless them.

Although some things that have happened in the scriptures are difficult to understand, I can assure you that God's ultimate purpose in whatever He does or allows, is to save His children from the consequence of sin.

[942767]

Quote (kejonn @ April 19 2008,07:15)

Just fessin' up . I know what I do here is unwelcome, but I feel obligated to stand up for God when I feel He is being spoken poorly of. I think the OT does just that. Everytime I read Deu 28:63, I just don't know how others can shut down reason and morality and say they want to believe the beneficient Maker of all would say He takes pleasure in destroying people.

Hi KJ:

And so you are “fessing up”, but unlike Towshab, who when the Jews told him that it was not right for him to come trying to draw people away from what they believed to be the truth, stopped posting on this site, you continue right on with your agenda.

It is one thing when you have ligitimate questions about the bible and about Christianity, but it is another when your motives are to draw people away from the faith.

Again, I know that God is a reality and that His testimony regarding His Son and His Christ, Jesus is true by the Holy Spirit that dwells within me.

The Christian walk is based on believing that Jesus is the propitation for our sin and obeying the commandments of God which are summed up the these two commanments:  Thou shalt love the LORD they God with all of they heart, mind, and soul and thy neighbor as thy self.  Love works no ill will toward his neighor and therfore, fulfills this portion of the Law.

If it were possible that Christianity was not the truth (I know that it is), and a person dies believing this what harm has he done to anyone.  If there is no resurrection, then he is simply lived and did good to humanity and that is the end of it.  There is no judgment day and so, that is the end of it for a Christian and anyone regardless of what they believe or how they lived their lives.

On the other hand if what Jesus taught is the truth then I believe you and other non believers have a problem, but it is your problem, and so, go about your business.

[kejonn]

Quote (942767 @ April 19 2008,13:01)

Quote (kejonn @ April 19 2008,07:15) Just fessin' up . I know what I do here is unwelcome, but I feel obligated to stand up for God when I feel He is being spoken poorly of. I think the OT does just that. Everytime I read Deu 28:63, I just don't know how others can shut down reason and morality and say they want to believe the beneficient Maker of all would say He takes pleasure in destroying people. Hi KJ: And so you are “fessing up”, but unlike Towshab, who when the Jews told him that it was not right for him to come trying to draw people away from what they believed to be the truth, stopped posting on this site, you continue right on with your agenda.

Let me ask you, would you witness to a Muslim and tell him he was wrong, or would you leave him alone? I am not Towshab. The difference between him and I is that he accepted the OT more or less, but I think it insults God.

Quote

It is one thing when you have ligitimate questions about the bible and about Christianity, but it is another when your motives are to draw people away from the faith.

What is faith? If your faith is in God and not a book, you should have no issues. But when your faith is in a book, you may indeed have issues. Most die hard fundamentalists have more faith in a book about God than God Himself.

Quote

Again, I know that God is a reality and that His testimony regarding His Son and His Christ, Jesus is true by the Holy Spirit that dwells within me.

And again, any person of any religion can say similar things about themselves. A Muslim can say he knows Allah is real and the Koran is right based on his own experiences. So who is right, you or him?

Quote

The Christian walk is based on believing that Jesus is the propitation for our sin and obeying the commandments of God which are summed up the these two commanments: Thou shalt love the LORD they God with all of they heart, mind, and soul and thy neighbor as thy self. Love works no ill will toward his neighor and therfore, fulfills this portion of the Law.

Loving God should not come with conditions. You are saying one must also believe that one man in the the 1st century appeared for a few years, performed some miracles, was killed then rose from the dead. Why must we believe this when only one book even says this actually happened?

Quote

If it were possible that Christianity was not the truth (I know that it is), and a person dies believing this what harm has he done to anyone. If there is no resurrection, then he is simply lived and did good to humanity and that is the end of it. There is no judgment day and so, that is the end of it for a Christian and anyone regardless of what they believe or how they lived their lives.

And that is fine if you do that individually. But Some do not: they insist on believing that others who do not believe as they do are going to hell without Jesus.

Quote

On the other hand if what Jesus taught is the truth then I believe you and other non believers have a problem, but it is your problem, and so, go about your business.

You're view is a common one. It says “You better accept Jesus, just in case”. Its like making a prenuptial agreement before a marriage.

[kejonn]

Quote (942767 @ April 19 2008,13:01)

If it were possible that Christianity was not the truth (I know that it is), and a person dies believing this what harm has he done to anyone. If there is no resurrection, then he is simply lived and did good to humanity and that is the end of it. There is no judgment day and so, that is the end of it for a Christian and anyone regardless of what they believe or how they lived their lives. On the other hand if what Jesus taught is the truth then I believe you and other non believers have a problem, but it is your problem, and so, go about your business.

If you truly feel this way, then you should be like Gandhi : “Yes I am. I am also a Christian, a Muslim, a Buddhist and a Jew.” I guess he had your attitude but he played it much safer. That is what if Islam is right and Christianity wrong? Accept both! What if both are wrong and Judaism is the true way? Accept all three! That way you are safe no matter what.

[Cato]

WorshippingJesus,April wrote:

I didn’t see a single question in your above proclamation, and Deist also have many views. Yes, and JW’s believe that they are the only church. And I have never resorted to the Catholic Church as being the whore, for I believe that all dead religion is part of the whore.

So I don't misunderstand and mischaracterize, which religions are dead and so of the proverbial whore?

[Author]

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