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Quote (Paladin @ Aug. 25 2009,21:03) Maybe that lifestyle appeals to you guys as a natioin, but not here. OF COURSE I am speaking only of my nation. Did you fail to read the several times I reference the falling of a nation, referencing my own?
I have heard this many times form various sources that proclaim we as a civilization or as in this particular case, we as Americans, are descending into sin, chaos or the like. What I would like to ask is where are we falling from? Tell me what time in American or World history would you like to proclaim as morally superior and tell me how we have fallen from this lofty pinnacle. If we are falling, we are falling from somewhere, somewhere higher, tell me where or when that was.If there is any failing of the US internationally, alongside the tremendous force for good that it has often been, it is on the question of human rights. Look at the list of countries that still use the death penalty and you might include the US in that ol' Axis of Evil! The Geneva Convention got a real beating in the “war on terror”. Those being water-boarded must have begin to wonder who the terrorists really were.
On the question of sodomy, most of the developed world has got over their historical bigotry. Islam still persecutes gays; it doesn't just mumble about them deserving death, it actually does something about it. Perhaps you should take up Iranian citizenship, the regime over there likes some of your ideas.
Stuart
Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 26 2009,01:35) There are many laws on the books that are a joke, and never enforced. Your point?
Well, if you will remember, the “gay pride movement” has been an outpouring of support for society's help in getting backing to show how law abiding Gays are in todays society.It is a total hypocrisy.
They have been law breakers, not law keepers all these years.
The simple fact that they are trying so desperately to get those laws changed will not modify the fact they have been breaking those laws all the time.
Instead of keeping the law, they have been trying to change the focus onto making a new category of “hate crime” against anyone speaking out against their behaviour; especially their “flaunting” of their so-called “gay pride” in parades and newspaper headlines, all the time knowing it was illegal. They now want the law to back their side of the story.
Quote (Cato @ Aug. 26 2009,02:33) Paladin,Aug. wrote:Maybe that lifestyle appeals to you guys as a natioin, but not here. OF COURSE I am speaking only of my nation. Did you fail to read the several times I reference the falling of a nation, referencing my own?
(Cato) I have heard this many times form various sources that proclaim we as a civilization or as in this particular case, we as Americans, are descending into sin, chaos or the like. What I would like to ask is where are we falling from? Tell me what time in American or World history would you like to proclaim as morally superior and tell me how we have fallen from this lofty pinnacle. If we are falling, we are falling from somewhere, somewhere higher, tell me where or when that was.
There was upon a time, a lofty and noble enterprise undertaken upon the shores of this nation. There has always been two natures at war with each other as the nation began to grow and prosper.
From the beginning, our treatment of the natives has been atrocious, to the point of destroying almost any recognizable resemblance to what once had been great and noble nations in the land. We destroyed them.
Perhaps our greatest leap towards a downfall came when we used atomic warfare against our enemies. Our justification was that we were saving lives. What we meant was “We are saving AMERICAN lives.”
If you trace the movement of gay expression in this country, it ballooned after the end of World War II, and I think it is the result of a judgment God rendered because of our terrible decision against Japan to end that war by terrible means.
God gives us what we deserve.
Homosexuality is not a birth defect. It is not chromosomes nor is it Genes. It is choices, wherein God will allow a nation to seek its lowest point whenever it becomes irretrievable.
We begin with little “insignificant” things, like ignoring the needs of the poor. We become arrogant. We become prosperous, so we can conclude “God has surely blessed us; we must be doing something right.” But it is simply the way God deals with arrogant people. He allows them to follow their own instincts.
And when our instincts turn us away from our fellow man, to pursue our own schemes, to ignore the plight of the unfortunate, and to begin to look at our own efforts as though WE have blessed us, forgetting God who calls us to account, we will begin the long slide into judgment and oblivion.
And when we grow old, and wonder “where are all the educators to teach our children, the doctors to treat our ailments, the scientists to keep us ahead of other countries;” God will remind us “You aborted them.” “By the millions, you slaughtered the innocent.” “Now it is your turn.”
And some of us will think, “what have we done?” Others will simply say, “What does this babbler carry on about?”
Homosexuality is not the first sign of God's displeasure, it is the last straw in his “longsuffering” with us.
Quote (Cato @ Aug. 26 2009,02:33) Quote (Paladin @ Aug. 25 2009,21:03) Maybe that lifestyle appeals to you guys as a natioin, but not here. OF COURSE I am speaking only of my nation. Did you fail to read the several times I reference the falling of a nation, referencing my own?
I have heard this many times form various sources that proclaim we as a civilization or as in this particular case, we as Americans, are descending into sin, chaos or the like. What I would like to ask is where are we falling from? Tell me what time in American or World history would you like to proclaim as morally superior and tell me how we have fallen from this lofty pinnacle. If we are falling, we are falling from somewhere, somewhere higher, tell me where or when that was.
Excellent point Cato!What so called civilized Christian men and our government did to the Native Americans in this country, was truly abhorrent, to give one example.
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Aug. 26 2009,11:38) Quote (Cato @ Aug. 26 2009,02:33) Quote (Paladin @ Aug. 25 2009,21:03) Maybe that lifestyle appeals to you guys as a natioin, but not here. OF COURSE I am speaking only of my nation. Did you fail to read the several times I reference the falling of a nation, referencing my own?
I have heard this many times form various sources that proclaim we as a civilization or as in this particular case, we as Americans, are descending into sin, chaos or the like. What I would like to ask is where are we falling from? Tell me what time in American or World history would you like to proclaim as morally superior and tell me how we have fallen from this lofty pinnacle. If we are falling, we are falling from somewhere, somewhere higher, tell me where or when that was.
Excellent point Cato!What so called civilized Christian men and our government did to the Native Americans in this country, was truly abhorrent, to give one example.
Sorry Paladin, I just read your last post where you cited this as well.Quote (Jodi Lee @ Aug. 26 2009,11:42) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Aug. 26 2009,11:38) What so called civilized Christian men and our government did to the Native Americans in this country, was truly abhorrent, to give one example.
Sorry Paladin, I just read your last post where you cited this as well.
I think we are in agreement over a great number of things regarding Christianity's inhumanity to man.That doesn't justify any other inhumanity taking place as though Christians have a corner on the market.
Thanks for your input.
Quote (Paladin @ Aug. 26 2009,11:23) There was upon a time, a lofty and noble enterprise undertaken upon the shores of this nation. There has always been two natures at war with each other as the nation began to grow and prosper. From the beginning, our treatment of the natives has been atrocious, to the point of destroying almost any recognizable resemblance to what once had been great and noble nations in the land. We destroyed them.
Perhaps our greatest leap towards a downfall came when we used atomic warfare against our enemies. Our justification was that we were saving lives. What we meant was “We are saving AMERICAN lives.”
If you trace the movement of gay expression in this country, it ballooned after the end of World War II, and I think it is the result of a judgment God rendered because of our terrible decision against Japan to end that war by terrible means.
God gives us what we deserve.
Homosexuality is not a birth defect. It is not chromosomes nor is it Genes. It is choices, wherein God will allow a nation to seek its lowest point whenever it becomes irretrievable.
We begin with little “insignificant” things, like ignoring the needs of the poor. We become arrogant. We become prosperous, so we can conclude “God has surely blessed us; we must be doing something right.” But it is simply the way God deals with arrogant people. He allows them to follow their own instincts.
And when our instincts turn us away from our fellow man, to pursue our own schemes, to ignore the plight of the unfortunate, and to begin to look at our own efforts as though WE have blessed us, forgetting God who calls us to account, we will begin the long slide into judgment and oblivion.
And when we grow old, and wonder “where are all the educators to teach our children, the doctors to treat our ailments, the scientists to keep us ahead of other countries;” God will remind us “You aborted them.” “By the millions, you slaughtered the innocent.” “Now it is your turn.”
And some of us will think, “what have we done?” Others will simply say, “What does this babbler carry on about?”
Homosexuality is not the first sign of God's displeasure, it is the last straw in his “longsuffering” with us.
I would counter on several points:I doubt the use of the Atomic Bomb was our greatest leap downward, by all estimates it ended the war quicker and with less casualties on both sides in comparison to what a direct invasion of the Japanese homeland would have entailed. More people died in the firebombings of Dresden (as many as 135,000). It was the single most destructive bombing of the war–including Hiroshima and Nagasaki!
Yes the gay movement grew after the war, but guess what so did the civil rights movement. Perhaps there is a connection here, is the civil rights movement God's judgment also?
No homosexuality is not a birth defect nor is it clearly genetic, but then neither is right and left handedness. Most scientists see it nature and nurture with most of the nurture being exposure to hormones in the uterus.
Yes Americans are arrogant, but I doubt anymore then we ever were. Manifest Destiny anyone.
The poor are treated worse today? Lets see welfare, food stamps, medicaid against what did they have in the past, oh yes indentured servitude and share croppers.
Homosexuality is the last straw of God's displeasure? Really it may be more open now but most studies suggest homosexual populations are remarkably steady (as a percent of the population) over time. There are not more gays now then before just more admitting they are gay.
If I were to describe today's era I would turn to Dickens as some things remain constant:
It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to heaven, we were all going direct the other way – in short, the period was so far like the present period, that some of its noisiest authorities insisted on its being received, for good or for evil, in the superlative degree of comparison only.
Charles Dickens, A Tale of Two CitiesTo be perfectly honest, I have an interest in it in the same way I do the vampire movies I watched as a child.. I just find it so hard to believe and it scares me a little that anyone could think this is normal behaviour. You really have to lie to yourself to believe this.
There is no such thing as a Gay or a Homosexual. There are men and women who committed homosexual acts. They would like to pretend they are a third sex but God only created two. The thing you do is perversion according to the bible.
Now you are free to do it, but know that is is an abomination to God and you will suffer the consequences, but beware those of you who condone it, you become a part of their sin. I don't care if it is a brother or sister, or a Mother or Father. it is sin.eveh
I don't care much for your mindless, ignorant bigotry either. I am sure you are a very pleasant person, but look what nastiness your christianity makes you spew on others.
Stuart
Quote (Paladin @ Aug. 26 2009,11:06) Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 26 2009,01:35) There are many laws on the books that are a joke, and never enforced. Your point?
Well, if you will remember, the “gay pride movement” has been an outpouring of support for society's help in getting backing to show how law abiding Gays are in todays society.It is a total hypocrisy.
They have been law breakers, not law keepers all these years.
The simple fact that they are trying so desperately to get those laws changed will not modify the fact they have been breaking those laws all the time.
Instead of keeping the law, they have been trying to change the focus onto making a new category of “hate crime” against anyone speaking out against their behaviour; especially their “flaunting” of their so-called “gay pride” in parades and newspaper headlines, all the time knowing it was illegal. They now want the law to back their side of the story.
Christians are always going on about how they would be prepared to disobey anything they would consider to be an unjust law.Gay people who live in the midst of bigoted homophobes who bring pressure to bear to keep medieval laws that prescribe what consenting adults may do in private are also disobeying an unjust law.
Stuart
Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 20 2009,10:00) kejonn said: Quote If you accept the bible as true, then there is some semblance of truth in his statement. However, I do not believe that all Christians peresecute others who are different than them, partly because most Christians don't have a clue about what is written in their bibles. What a bigoted statement! You infer that knowledgeable Christians are necessarily persecutors and Christians who do not persecute do not because they are ignorant.
YOU ARE A CLASS A-1 BIGOT! So take the beam out of your own eye.
thinker
How is it bigoted? As Stu said, do you even know what the word means? If you look it up, you would find that you make many more “bigoted” statements on this board than I ever would.Sorry to inform you, but the bible is chock full of persecution of others. Anyone who reads it without Christian-colored glasses can see it.
In any case, I know many Christians who do not look down on others for being different and engaging in activities, thoughts, etc. that are contrary to biblical living.
One wonders if the Jesus at the well (John 4) was really the same god who inspired Deut 28…
Quote (Cato @ Aug. 26 2009,13:19)
(Cato)Quote More people died in the firebombings of Dresden (as many as 135,000). It was the single most destructive bombing of the war–including Hiroshima and Nagasaki! Hmmmm!!!
HIROSHIMA
http://history1900s.about.com/od/worldwarii/a/hiroshima.htmUnlike many other bombing raids, the goal for this raid had not been a military installation but rather an entire city. The atomic bomb that exploded over Hiroshima killed civilian women and children in addition to soldiers. Hiroshima's population has been estimated at 350,000; approximately 70,000 died immediately from the explosion and another 70,000 died from radiation within five years.
NAGASAKI
http://history1900s.about.com/od/worldwarii/a/hiroshima_2.htm
Approximately 40 percent of Nagasaki was destroyed. Luckily for many civilians living in Nagasaki, though this atomic bomb was considered much stronger than the one exploded over Hiroshima, the terrain of Nagasaki prevented the bomb from doing as much damage. Yet the decimation was still great. With a population of 270,000, approximately 70,000 people died by the end of the year.DRESDEN
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II
Bombing of Dresden in World War II
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The Bombing of Dresden by the British Royal Air Force (RAF) and United States Army Air Force (USAAF) between 13 February and 15 February 1945, twelve weeks before the surrender of the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) of Nazi Germany, remains one of the most controversial Allied actions of the Second World War. In four raids, 1,300 heavy bombers dropped more than 3,900 tons of high-explosive bombs and incendiary devices on the city, the baroque capital of the German state of Saxony. The resulting firestorm destroyed 39 square kilometres (15 sq mi) of the city centre.[1] Estimates of civilian casualties vary greatly, but recent publications place the figure between 24,000 and 40,000.[2]A 1953 United States Air Force report written by Joseph W. Angell defended the operation as the justified bombing of a military and industrial target, which was a major rail transportation and communication centre, housing 110 factories and 50,000 workers in support of the German war effort.[3] Against this, several researchers have argued that not all of the communications infrastructure, such as the bridges, were in fact targeted, nor were the extensive industrial areas outside the city centre.[4] It has been argued that Dresden was a cultural landmark of little or no military significance, a “Florence on the Elbe,” as it was known, and the attacks were indiscriminate area bombing and not proportional for the commensurate military gains.[5][6]
In the first few decades after the war, some death toll estimates were as high as 250,000. However, figures in the regions of hundreds of thousands are considered disproportionate.[7] Today's historians estimate a death toll of between 24,000 and 40,000,[2] with an independent investigation commissioned by the city itself stated that around 18,000 victims had been identified and that the estimated total number of fatalities was around 25,000.[8][9] Post-war discussion of the bombing includes debate by commentators and historians as to whether or not the bombing was justified, and whether or not its outcome constituted a war crime. Nonetheless, the raids continue to be included among the worst examples of civilian suffering caused by strategic bombing, and have become one of the moral causes célèbres of the Second World War.[10]
(Cato)
Quote Homosexuality is the last straw of God's displeasure? Really it may be more open now but most studies suggest homosexual populations are remarkably steady (as a percent of the population) over time. There are not more gays now then before just more admitting they are gay. My own inability to express myself has lead to another misunderstanding. I was not intending to convey the extent of the population that is gay has increased, I was intending to reference the fact gays are now far more influential in the leadership roles in the religious communities preciously closed to them. Now, the Episcopalians are blessing gay marriages and the Methodists are ordaining gay and Lesbian Bishops.
This will have a far more devastating effect on the moral compass of our nation, than even having an openly gay Senator (Barney Frank) in the U.S. Government.
It is not the NUMBER of gays compared to the population census that concerns me, it is the influential growth that is most troubling.
Zs for your observations about all the good that has been done in a parallel time frame, that is truly a good thing, but the balance of good versus evil is not in my hands, it is in God's hands, and he has issued warnings after warnings, only to be dared and mocked.
I guess when we have killed “enough” unborn, he will decide when “enough” is truly ENOUGH, and there will be retribution like nothing this world has ever experienced.
Quote (Paladin @ Aug. 27 2009,01:19) Zs for your observations about all the good that has been done in a parallel time frame, that is truly a good thing, but the balance of good versus evil is not in my hands, it is in God's hands, and he has issued warnings after warnings, only to be dared and mocked. I guess when we have killed “enough” unborn, he will decide when “enough” is truly ENOUGH, and there will be retribution like nothing this world has ever experienced.
Well God's supposed warnings all come from indirect sources and are predicated on the idea that Christian scripture is God's unadulterated word, which I doubt. To me, God created a universe with basic laws, one of which is that of cause and effect. God doesn't need to reward or punish as the universe on it's own delivers consequences. So in my view the balance of good and evil along with the results thereof is up to us.As far as the killing of human fetuses we will decide when enough is enough, divine retribution is not needed, for again we live under the laws of cause and effect. I have always liked the concept of karma, both group and individual for, if true, it would logically and without bias dispense back to us for woe and weal all our actions and decisions in measure to the original acts and intents.
As far as homosexuals I think it is a condition of incarnation like right or left handedness and good or evil comes from how we act given the choices we are given. Sexual orientation is not a moral choice how we treat others is. Instead of being upset by gay men look at it this way, it leaves more women for those of us who aren't.
Quote (Paladin @ Aug. 27 2009,01:19) Unlike many other bombing raids, the goal for this raid had not been a military installation but rather an entire city. The atomic bomb that exploded over Hiroshima killed civilian women and children in addition to soldiers. Hiroshima's population has been estimated at 350,000; approximately 70,000 died immediately from the explosion and another 70,000 died from radiation within five years.
Bombing civilians was not restricted to nuclear weapons, it was in fact a general strategy in the second world war, particularly here in Europe.In the defence of humanity, I find some small cause for hope in the fact that nobody has used nuclear weapons since Hiroshima and Nagasaki – and the Japanese, whom they were used against renounced them, I believe. Maybe deep down somewhere in the human psyche there is the ultimate realisation that one can only go so far down the path of war and destruction before it isn't just the other tribe that suffers – but your own also.
I still won't bet against more nukes being used in the foreseeable future, but I'm still cautiously optimistic we won't have a major global nuclear war. It is of course largely irrelevant if we do.
Quote I guess when we have killed “enough” unborn, he will decide when “enough” is truly ENOUGH, and there will be retribution like nothing this world has ever experienced.
I think you will find that what is coming is the result of simple collective greed and stupidity, and a disproportionate amount of it (globally) in America, but by no means confined to America.It is nothing to do with retribution, we made the mess that is coming, and we're going to die by it too. In a way, we judged ourselves, and failed the judgement.
Those who make it will (pick at least one):
– be lucky
– extremely resilient in the face of adversity
– have listened to the right things at the right timesMost people I speak to are still quite determined to bury their heads in the sand, this I think also a trait of the human psyche, and in some ways one I'm quite glad about.
Quote (Douglas @ Aug. 28 2009,09:36) Quote (Paladin @ Aug. 27 2009,01:19) Unlike many other bombing raids, the goal for this raid had not been a military installation but rather an entire city. The atomic bomb that exploded over Hiroshima killed civilian women and children in addition to soldiers. Hiroshima's population has been estimated at 350,000; approximately 70,000 died immediately from the explosion and another 70,000 died from radiation within five years.
Bombing civilians was not restricted to nuclear weapons, it was in fact a general strategy in the second world war, particularly here in Europe.In the defence of humanity, I find some small cause for hope in the fact that nobody has used nuclear weapons since Hiroshima and Nagasaki – and the Japanese, whom they were used against renounced them, I believe. Maybe deep down somewhere in the human psyche there is the ultimate realisation that one can only go so far down the path of war and destruction before it isn't just the other tribe that suffers – but your own also.
I still won't bet against more nukes being used in the foreseeable future, but I'm still cautiously optimistic we won't have a major global nuclear war. It is of course largely irrelevant if we do.
Quote I guess when we have killed “enough” unborn, he will decide when “enough” is truly ENOUGH, and there will be retribution like nothing this world has ever experienced.
I think you will find that what is coming is the result of simple collective greed and stupidity, and a disproportionate amount of it (globally) in America, but by no means confined to America.It is nothing to do with retribution, we made the mess that is coming, and we're going to die by it too. In a way, we judged ourselves, and failed the judgement.
Those who make it will (pick at least one):
– be lucky
– extremely resilient in the face of adversity
– have listened to the right things at the right timesMost people I speak to are still quite determined to bury their heads in the sand, this I think also a trait of the human psyche, and in some ways one I'm quite glad about.
Seems to me I heard a similar concept recently, “It was the best of times, it was the worst of times…”I think man's best and his worst come out under durress. And ther eis certainly plenty of that going around.
I think we are pretty well in agreement on your remarks.
Stupidity reigns, but not necessarily supreme. Maybe a few alarms being raised will have an impact, maybe not. We can only try.
Thanks for your input.
Quote (Stu @ Aug. 24 2009,17:24) Quote (Paladin @ Aug. 24 2009,01:43) This country simply WILL NOT understand that Homosexual behaviour does NOT honour God. According to the Tampa Tribune dated 8/22/09, The Lutheran Church will allow active gays into the clergy. Prior to this decision, only non-practicing gays were ordained into the clergy, but that has been changed by this decision.
This is an attempt to make homosexually acceptable in mainstream Society, through the auspices of the Church. It will only serve to cause further division, is my humble opinion.
Homosexuality IS acceptable in mainstream society. It is just a narrow minority of religious and far-right neo-nazi homophobes who are under the delusion that their bigotry is widely accepted.Stuart
Greetings Stu….. I consider you to be a learned well read and balanced interlect….. Your case for the acceptance of Homosexuality as a mainstream acceptable life style is weak on premise and has nothing to do with the religious community at all….. This is a lifestyle that is fundamentally contrary to the laws of nature and has no means of perpetuating itself,with the exception of its proponents ability to force its precepts on an ignorant populus….I say ignorant NOT STUPID!Quote (Cato @ Aug. 27 2009,23:02) Quote (Paladin @ Aug. 27 2009,01:19) Zs for your observations about all the good that has been done in a parallel time frame, that is truly a good thing, but the balance of good versus evil is not in my hands, it is in God's hands, and he has issued warnings after warnings, only to be dared and mocked. I guess when we have killed “enough” unborn, he will decide when “enough” is truly ENOUGH, and there will be retribution like nothing this world has ever experienced.
Well God's supposed warnings all come from indirect sources and are predicated on the idea that Christian scripture is God's unadulterated word, which I doubt. To me, God created a universe with basic laws, one of which is that of cause and effect. God doesn't need to reward or punish as the universe on it's own delivers consequences. So in my view the balance of good and evil along with the results thereof is up to us.As far as the killing of human fetuses we will decide when enough is enough, divine retribution is not needed, for again we live under the laws of cause and effect. I have always liked the concept of karma, both group and individual for, if true, it would logically and without bias dispense back to us for woe and weal all our actions and decisions in measure to the original acts and intents.
As far as homosexuals I think it is a condition of incarnation like right or left handedness and good or evil comes from how we act given the choices we are given. Sexual orientation is not a moral choice how we treat others is. Instead of being upset by gay men look at it this way, it leaves more women for those of us who aren't.
Greetings Cato…..I find your perspective balanced and worldly while being tempered with a sense of what is right or wrong….I agree with your premise that notwithstanding the written word…When God has had enough he will make his will known…and judgement will follow…
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